ZAUGG: Watch the BBC Line

[Alter Haudegen]

Ok, I do grasp the difference between the systems. And I dont try to defend the Soviet system, I defend the athletes that came out of that system. There seem to be a common idea that the Russians where only soo good cause they where forced to play ice hockey (or any other sport) while the athletes from other countrys just do it for fun. As soon as an athlete have reached the top there is a lot of people who depend on that person to stay at the top. It can be his team who own his contract, it can be the sponsors who need their selling star to produce, it can be a country who need to show how good that countrys athletes are etc.
And for being drafted by the army to become a soldier/officer. Russia is not the only country who use that system. We have that system in Sweden as well even if it is on its way out. And belive me not all the people who have to spend time in the army likes it. And if the country wants it army to work that way should the ones who do sports not be drafted as well? Find that argument strange.

There is a difference between National service like in Sweden and being forced to become an officer like the Soviet hockey Federation used to control their players. An officer in the Red Army couldn't leave the country to play in the West because he was a secret carrier.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

But then you have to forget about the KLM line and have to ask yourself who would you take Crosby or Krutov, Larionov or Makarov as individuals? What makes them so special IMO is the fact that the completed each other so outstanding and that they played together for so long. But outside a system where players don't have a voice in this matter you wouldn't see a line as dominating again, simple for the reason that one player might earn more money at another team.

What teams in what league in what sport does the players tell the coach who they wanna play with and how they wanna do it? And how many players can just walk away from their contract to play for a different club when they wanna? And what team have never had one or more players who did not like it at the club but had to stay on for some time since they where under contract and the coach/owner wanted them to stay?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

There is a difference between National service like in Sweden and being forced to become an officer like the Soviet hockey Federation used to control their players. An officer in the Red Army couldn't leave the country to play in the West because he was a secret carrier.

Yes there is a difference between it. Proclubs in Sweden dont have anything to do with the army. But if you have been selected to do you service and refuse you can and will be sent to jail. Since the situation is the way it is today that never really happens but the rules are there.

 

[Alter Haudegen]

What teams in what league in what sport does the players tell the coach who they wanna play with and how they wanna do it? And how many players can just walk away from their contract to play for a different club when they wanna? And what team have never had one or more players who did not like it at the club but had to stay on for some time since they where under contract and the coach/owner wanted them to stay?

No offense but how old are you? The difference is that you can negotiate a contract. It works for a few years and then your contract ends. That's not how it worked in the Soviet Union. Balderis played for Riga, he didn't want to play for CSKA. The team didn't want to loose him but they had no choice. "In the interest of the National team" he was transfered to CSKA.

 

[Zine]

The difference, that you don't seem to grasp, is that athletes in a democratic society have a choice where they play. They are not forced to join the army as an officer just to be able to compete in their sports. They can chance the team if they don't get along with their coach and so on.
In the case of the KLM line do you think they choose to play together, do you think they would have stayed together for so long if they had a choice? Just ask Sascha Mogilny what happened when he decided he doesn't want to become an officer in the Red Army. Ask Helmut Balderis what happened when he said he doesn't want to play for CSKA.
I have tremendous respect for Russian hockey. Players like Tretiak, Kharlamov, Maltesev, Mikhailov, Petrov or Balderis are a few of my favourite players of all time. But that doesn't mean I have to like or defend the system that produced these players.

When push came to shove, players DID have the option to play for who they wanted to. It's just when they didn't choose to play for CSKA or whoever, players were left off the national team and lost many of the 'perks' that top players were receiving on CSKA, Dynamo or Spartak (see Balderis). And since it was every player's dream to play for the national team - joining teams like CSKA was the only option to fulfill that dream. It's not like players were shipped off to some gulag and never heard from again if they refused to join these teams.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No offense but how old are you? The difference is that you can negotiate a contract. It works for a few years and then your contract ends. That's not how it worked in the Soviet Union. Balderis played for Riga, he didn't want to play for CSKA. The team didn't want to loose him but they had no choice. "In the interest of the National team" he was transfered to CSKA.

None taken. As I stated earlier I dont defend that system and if you looked through my posts again you would maybe understand that as well. What I have been saying and will say again is that the people seem to think that if you just force people to do something like "the BBC line would play under the "gulag" system" they would be better then the KLM line. The russian players where awesome players and yes the way they ended up playing togheter could not work in a democratic country. But the fact is that they trained, traveled and practically lived togheter just as the athletes of any other team.

 

[Muscle Bob]

People glance and DON'T READ articles.
If you all had READ the article, you would have READ that Zaugg says the KLM line was the best and that the BBC line has the tools to POSSIBLY/COULD EVENTUALLY be as great as the KLM line.
Now stick your heads back in the sand.

Ok, lets start from the beggining:

Which is the best line of all time in the history of the IIHF World Championships?

In my mind, the answer is clear: the famous Soviet KLM Line of Vladimir Krutov, Igor Larionov, and Sergei Makarov.

Then some text about KLM, and..:

But now, a new line is emerging in Riga that could be even better than the KLM Line. Oh, you've never heard of the BBC Line?

Mmm, yeah, there is "could be". But even this "could be" very, very arguable.

Then goes fantasy like this:

Based on what we've seen so far, imagine if those three kids got to practice together on the same team under someone like Viktor Tikhonov for the next five or six years. They would have the potential to become the best line in the history of the game. Yes, perhaps even better than Krutov, Larionov, and Makarov.

And then:

Bergeron, Boyes, and Crosby are more complete players than the three famous Russians.

Where do you see "could be" ?

How did he make such conclusion ? After watching games with Norway, Denmark, dead USA team, and 9PP goals with Latvia ?

Zaugg is lol

 

[Alter Haudegen]

When push came to shove, players DID have the option to play for who they wanted to. It's just when they didn't choose to play for CSKA or whoever, players were left off the national team and lost many of the 'perks' that top players were receiving on CSKA, Dynamo or Spartak (see Balderis). And since it was every player's dream to play for the national team - joining teams like CSKA was the only option to fulfill that dream. It's not like players were shipped off to some gulag and never heard from again if they refused to join these teams.

Actually it's a little more complicated (what isn't in life ).
Larionov for example wanted to play for his hometown team Voskresensk after his two year compulsory military service had ended. But Tikhonov didn't allow him to play for them. So his only alternative would have been to stop playing hockey altogether. He was then made an army officer and after that he didn't have any choices at all.

 

[Muscle Bob]

Guys, please stop political converstations here

 

[Haute Couture]

No one was really forced to play for Red Army. Take Helmut Balderis - when Tikhonov was in Riga they were really close, but then after an altercation, he simply left for Riga. The punishment was simple - you're never ever play for the USSR team anymore.

If you were an official army-soldier, while harder, but it was still possible. You have to "fire yourself" - or quit - the army, which many people did.

What was REALLY hard was moving to the NHL. Fetisov had to go through so much bureaucracy it was ridiculous. But no one stood with a gun pointed to the players' faces making them go out on the ice. My history teacher speculated that "something has definitely happened" to Soviet players after Lake Placid, some kind of punishment was enforced on them.... which was far away from truth.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Alter Haudegen, there is still some questions for you in post #27. Would be nice to hear you answers.

 

[Muscle Bob]

Yeah, and one more:

Backed by the defensive pairing of Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexei Kasatonov, they won gold medals at the 1984 and 1988 Olympics and the Worlds in 1982, 1983, 1986, and 1989. In 1983, they were the first and only forward line to be named as a complete unit to the World Championship All-Star Team.

Backed by the <don't know defencemen> BBC won Denmark 5:3, Norway 7:1, USA 2:1, Latvia 11:0

How can he even try to compare this lines ?

 

[Alter Haudegen]

Alter Haudegen, there is still some questions for you in post #27. Would be nice to hear you answers.

I'm not sure what you mean. I think I answered it when I said that while you might be unhappy with your contract, it's for a limited time and for example if you are unhappy with your NHL team you could still play in Europe. And if you can't work with you coach anymore the team will most likely trade you (if only for the sake of the team). What happened when Fetisov and Larionov fell out with Tikhonov? Tikhonov claimed he had information on both players that could put them in prison for eight years.
Hope this answers your question.

 

[Jovial]

Ok, lets start from the beggining:


Then some text about KLM, and..:


Mmm, yeah, there is "could be". But even this "could be" very, very arguable.

Then goes fantasy like this:


And then:

Where do you see "could be" ?

How did he make such conclusion ? After watching games with Norway, Denmark, dead USA team, and 9PP goals with Latvia ?

Zaugg is lol

Well, to judge if a player is "complete", you judge him on his career, not a tournament. And according to him, he thinks that they are (or will be).

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No, not really Alter. Limited time or not, who is the players who can just pack their bags and move to any club they want to when they are not happy? You still bring up the methods that Tikhonov used with the backing of the Soviet system but that is not really the question here. What we have is a group of players who formed a line that dominated ice hockey for a long time and how that line was formed seem to give people the idea that they were only that great because of the way they come togheter and that any other line in the future could never be as good as them if they did not play under the "gulag system". I belive that line were that good because the players where that good and their chemistry on the ice really worked. That they spent endless hours training to become that good is just what they had to do just like any other athlete who wanna be the best. But I guess you will bring up how badly they were treated again and how free and happy the players out side of the eastern block is/were.

 

[SergeiK]

I´ve heard about this Crosby character, but I`ve never heard of those two other guys.

 

[Alter Haudegen]

No, not really Alter. Limited time or not, who is the players who can just pack their bags and move to any club they want to when they are not happy? You still bring up the methods that Tikhonov used with the backing of the Soviet system but that is not really the question here. What we have is a group of players who formed a line that dominated ice hockey for a long time and how that line was formed seem to give people the idea that they were only that great because of the way they come togheter and that any other line in the future could never be as good as them if they did not play under the "gulag system". I belive that line were that good because the players where that good and their chemistry on the ice really worked. That they spent endless hours training to become that good is just what they had to do just like any other athlete who wanna be the best. But I guess you will bring up how badly they were treated again and how free and happy the players out side of the eastern block is/were.

Tell me one other line outside the eastern block that was formed from the best players a country had and that played together every day for years. It most likely won't work in a free market system (if this is good or bad that's up to you). Look what happened with the LA Lakers with Kobe Bryant and Shaq O'Neill.
Yes the players worked hard just like any player who wants to be the best. But one reason why they were so good as a line is because they were able to play together for so long. If you don't think so then we have to disagree.
And don't put words in my mouth. I rooted for the Soviets at the WC when it wasn't sexy to do so but when you got denounced for it as a communist or a red *******.
Since you are such a big fan of the KLM line I can really recommend Larionovs autobiography.

 

[Habs4Life]

I´ve heard about this Crosby character, but I`ve never heard of those two other guys.

Have you been living under a rock for the last year?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Tell me one other line outside the eastern block that was formed from the best players a country had and that played together every day for years. It most likely won't work in a free market system (if this is good or bad that's up to you). Look what happened with the LA Lakers with Kobe Bryant and Shaq O'Neill.
Yes the players worked hard just like any player who wants to be the best. But one reason why they were so good as a line is because they were able to play together for so long. If you don't think so then we have to disagree.
And don't put words in my mouth. I rooted for the Soviets at the WC when it wasn't sexy to do so but when you got denounced for it as a communist or a red *******.
Since you are such a big fan of the KLM line I can really recommend Larionovs autobiography.

I am all for a free market it is just that people seem to question the teams performances who came/come from countrys who did/do not have free markets. Why is it that as soon one talks about the red machine some one will bring up the Soviet system and how the team was formed like to say that their victorys where not as big as the victorys of other countrys?

 

[SergeiK]

Have you been living under a rock for the last year?

It may be shocking to, but all people on this planet don`t read Manitoba Gazette.

When someone says name Bergeron, I think of Martin Bergeron.

 

[Alter Haudegen]

I am all for a free market it is just that people seem to question the teams performances who came/come from countrys who did/do not have free markets. Why is it that as soon one talks about the red machine some one will bring up the Soviet system and how the team was formed like to say that their victorys where not as big as the victorys of other countrys?

It might be because the way the system worked was PART of the success. This shouldn't belittle the success or the talent of the players or how hard they worked. But why don't you see that the fact that this team played together and lived together and trained together is one reason why the were that good as a team? That's one of the reason why the US team has to be favorite at every U18 tournament. Through the NTDP they play together the whole season, no other country has this luxury. The difference to the Soviet system is that they don't get all the best players, since some choose a different path (like playing in the CHL). To acknowledge this fact doesn't belittle the talent of the Kessels, Johnsons and co. But I'm sure that you will concur that other countries like Canada, Sweden, Finland or the Czech Republic have similar talent but their players are not able to practice or play with each other in the same way that the US boys do.

I close my case

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Case closed

 

[Macman]

It may be shocking to, but all people on this planet don`t read Manitoba Gazette.

When someone says name Bergeron, I think of Martin Bergeron.

He's a very good, young NHLer who's been in the league since he was 18. He led Canada to the world junior title in 2005 and was named tournament MVP.

 

[jcorb58]

I dont dissagre that the famous KLM line was the best, however, i cant see how some people can disagree that the circumstances sourounding them didnt help them reach their potential as a unit. Lets say for example we Canadians could put a Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman line together ( albeit they would have to play out of position). Let them play 5-6 yrs together practicing and competing as a unit in all games and tournaments. You cant convince me that they would not be as good or better than the Russians. We dont have the luxury of being able to give our players anything other than an allstar format like the Russians now also have to do. I am not saying they are not great players. If that system still excisted today they could put AO, Malkin and Kovy together and probubly have a line that could compare with KLM. How about if Sweden could do the same with Naslund, Forsberg and Sundin? Or Canadas future line of Crosby, Spezza and Staal.

 

[Le Golie]

It may be shocking to, but all people on this planet don`t read Manitoba Gazette.

When someone says name Bergeron, I think of Martin Bergeron.

If you are on HF boards, you should know who the hell Patrice Bergeron is. That's terrible.