Post-Game Talk: You're Lehtonen too many goals: Pens - 5, Stars - 1

radapex

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Sep 21, 2012
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For a lot of the people analyzing Fleury vs Backup stats, I remember it being pretty obvious last year that the team played a better defensive game when Vokoun was in net, and at times I've seen that with Zatkoff. It's almost like the players, whether they're right or wrong, trust Fleury more and take more gambles and push more. We have to watch out when we just start throwing around stats, because I'm not sure they're both playing with the same "team" out in front of them.

Sunday's game against the Flyers was actually a good example of this. Fleury played very well but the Flyers scored 3 goals in 15 shots through 13:41. Zatkoff goes in, doesn't see a shot for the rest of the period and only faces 20 between the 2nd and 3rd periods. Once that goalie change was made, the team tightened up and play a more sound game.

This isn't limited to the Pens, either. Most teams will bear down and tighten up when their backup is in the game.

I don't think Fleury is a great goalie, but I don't think he's bad either. He's middle third/2nd quartile starter with a knack of losing it in big games which is where the criticism becomes valid.

Like I said, he's your average starter. Not great, not terrible. He'll go out and play 65 games, win 40, and finish mid-pack statistically.
 
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IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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What does this even mean? If fighting it means repeatedly taking the body, winning board battles, and skating the puck out of danger, then yeah I guess he was fighting it. Honestly, this was Despres' most complete game in a while. He made a stupid play and by flubbing the puck in the wrong area of the ice. He should have banked the puck off the boards instead. That doesn't negate all of the good stuff he did. I watched Maatta and Orpik do the same.

Honestly, if anyone had a rough game on defense, outside the usuals, it was Nisky.

wasn't Despres' "bad read" more like bad luck anyhow? I seem to remember him stepping up on a play and the puck taking a funny bounce off the boards. Instead of coming to him it hit something and bounced into the slot?

**** happens.

And I agree, Nisky had his worst night in a while. Probably no logical explanation for it.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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Wowsa... I don't like Sutter's quotes. You can feel his days are numbered. He is not happy.

He hasn't competed well, but would you be happy if you had different linemates every game, most of whom are AHL players?

I'd want out if I were him too. Get a fresh start somewhere with a set role and linemates that don't suck.
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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People tend to exaggerate around here :laugh:

It wasn't necessary but certainly not a big deal.

I *****ed about Glass being out there, but only in this context:

if it's Glass and Goc and others like that, I get it.

When it's Glass with Neal and Malkin and Nisky and Maatta and Nisky plays the whole 2 minutes, I'm left asking: why have Glass (or Malkin or Neal) out there rather than trying to get Sid a hat trick in front of the home fans?

That was my only issue with it. You played 4 "stars", and none of those 4 were the right one.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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wasn't Despres' "bad read" more like bad luck anyhow? I seem to remember him stepping up on a play and the puck taking a funny bounce off the boards. Instead of coming to him it hit something and bounced into the slot?

**** happens.

And I agree, Nisky had his worst night in a while. Probably no logical explanation for it.

Yeah it was bad luck. I still would have rather seen him make the safe play and bank it off the boards. If he whiffed doing that, he turns the puck over on the boards rather than the middle of the ice. Like you said, though, **** happens. He honestly was damn near fantastic the 1st two periods.
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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That's fair but odd man breaks aren't always the defenses fault. The one was Bortuzzo's fault for firing it in on the goalie instead of dumping it in and changing (of course that was a hell of a play by Lehtonen). Neal made a stupid pinch on the PP. Forwards not backchecking enough, etc.

Overall, I thought our defense played pretty well. Despres was great last night minus the flubbed pass turnover. The only "problem" I see with Despres is that when he gets confidence he tries to do too much.

defense is a 5-man effort!

This game reminded me of most "normal" Penguins wins: lots of errors, some good goal tending that covers up those errors, and one of Crosby or Malkin dominating.

I was happy to see Sid play well (and I didn't think Malkin played poorly), but still lots of work to be done.
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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Yeah it was bad luck. I still would have rather seen him make the safe play and bank it off the boards. If he whiffed doing that, he turns the puck over on the boards rather than the middle of the ice. Like you said, though, **** happens. He honestly was damn near fantastic the 1st two periods.

sorry, different plays.

His whiff was 100% on him. Should have gone north instead of east-west. I was thinking of the play that led to the waved off goal.
 

UnrealMachine

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Jul 9, 2012
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It's not all that uncommon, actually.

ANA
Hiller - 45 GP, 27-11-6, 2.40 GAA, .914 SV%
Andersen - 22 GP, 16-4-0, 2.22 GAA, .925 SV%

LAK
Quick - 39 GP, 21-15-2, 2.10 GAA, .914 SV%
Jones - 16 GP, 10-5-0, 1.90 GAA, .932 SV%
Scrivens - 19 GP, 7-5-4, 1.97 GAA, .931 SV%

NYR
Lundqvist - 53 GP, 26-22-4, 2.50 GAA, .917 SV%
Talbot - 19 GP, 11-6-0, 1.76 GAA, .937 SV%

PHX
Smith - 59 GP, 26-20-10, 2.67 GAA, .915 SV%
Greiss - 15 GP, 7-5-1, 2.25 GAA, .927 SV%

SJS
Niemi - 55 GP, 34-14-6, 2.34 GAA, .914 SV%
Stalock - 20 GP, 11-4-1, 1.91 GAA, .931 SV%

WSH
Hotlby - 41 GP, 19-14-3, 2.98 GAA, .911 SV%
Grubauer - 17 GP, 6-5-5, 2.38 GAA, .925 SV%
Neuvirth - 13 GP, 4-6-2, 2.82 GAA, .914 SV%

WPG
Pavelec - 52 GP, 20-24-6, 2.97 GAA, .902 SV%
Montoya - 23 GP, 11-6-3, 2.18 GAA, .924 SV%


On most other teams, their starter and backup are only a few percentage points apart. It's actually more rare for the starter to be significantly better statistically than the other way around - at least, as far as this season goes.

How common is it for a starter to be equal to or only slightly better than his backups over his entire career?
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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I *****ed about Glass being out there, but only in this context:

if it's Glass and Goc and others like that, I get it.

When it's Glass with Neal and Malkin and Nisky and Maatta and Nisky plays the whole 2 minutes, I'm left asking: why have Glass (or Malkin or Neal) out there rather than trying to get Sid a hat trick in front of the home fans?

That was my only issue with it. You played 4 "stars", and none of those 4 were the right one.

I did wonder why Sid wasn't out there for a hat trick try. My first thought was "I guess Bylsma is trying to get Geno or Neal going" and then remembered Sid had 2 goals and wondered why he wasn't out there.

The bigger "issue" with it for me is that Glass was out there for his defensive prowess and that's a bunch of crap. I guess I just need to accept that Bylsma sees Glass and Adams as defensive forwards.

The positive though is that he's separated them and I hope that continues. Though he probably did it because he wanted a defensive presence on each line rather than because together the suckage increases exponentially.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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sorry, different plays.

His whiff was 100% on him. Should have gone north instead of east-west. I was thinking of the play that led to the waved off goal.

Now you sound like Steiggy. Despres should have gone North there, Bob.
 

Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
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I did wonder why Sid wasn't out there for a hat trick try. My first thought was "I guess Bylsma is trying to get Geno or Neal going" and then remembered Sid had 2 goals and wondered why he wasn't out there.

The bigger "issue" with it for me is that Glass was out there for his defensive prowess and that's a bunch of crap. I guess I just need to accept that Bylsma sees Glass and Adams as defensive forwards.

The positive though is that he's separated them and I hope that continues. Though he probably did it because he wanted a defensive presence on each line rather than because together the suckage increases exponentially.

You almost answered you own question, almost. Bylsma is aware of the criticism of his two pet projects. He is looking for stats to help him justify his two crappy pets. It's so pathetic, Bylsma is a joke and it's crap like this that will cause problems within a team environment.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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I did wonder why Sid wasn't out there for a hat trick try. My first thought was "I guess Bylsma is trying to get Geno or Neal going" and then remembered Sid had 2 goals and wondered why he wasn't out there.

The bigger "issue" with it for me is that Glass was out there for his defensive prowess and that's a bunch of crap. I guess I just need to accept that Bylsma sees Glass and Adams as defensive forwards.

I think it's more likely that Glass was out there because the game was chippy due to the score and he was our only forward who could scrap. We've had a lot of leads over the course of the season, but Glass has only played about a minute of PP time altogether. I doubt it was for defensive purposes.
 

Shady Machine

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Aug 6, 2010
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I think it's more likely that Glass was out there because the game was chippy due to the score and he was our only forward who could scrap. We've had a lot of leads over the course of the season, but Glass has only played about a minute of PP time altogether. I doubt it was for defensive purposes.

That's possible. I'd rather see Bortuzzo out there then.
 

wgknestrick

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Aug 14, 2012
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How is he a bottom 25% starter when he is the definition of an average starter, statistically, every year?

I mean, just last week the guy was actually in the top 10 in every goalie category. The team plays 4 periods of terrible hockey against the Flyers and he drops a bit - it happens.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=ShPctA&sortdir=ASC

#23 out of 28 qualifiers over the last 3 years in 5v5 SV%. (that's bottom 18%). He's actually lower if you allow for goalies with less ice time in there. But hey, he's top 10 in wins, right? I wonder if that is a team stat?

2013/2014
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...0&teamid=0&type=shots&sort=ShPctA&sortdir=ASC

#22/25 (bottom 12%)

He isn't so special when you take the team effects away from his stats (GAA, Wins, team PK), is he?
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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For my own amusement, I checked out Adams' numbers this season...

- He scored three GOALS in our first four games of the season, meaning he hasn't lit the lamp since October 11 against Florida.

- He has four assists in his last 16 games. That's actually decent by his standards. If this were his pace all season, it would suck a lot less.

- Brian McGrattan of the Flames has as many goals as Adams, with almost exactly half the ice time on average per game. And he's arguably the top enforcer in the NHL this season.

- Adams went a stretch of 38 games earlier this season without a point (November 2, 2013-January 25, 2014. In those 38 games, he was a plus player THREE times (+1 each time). Overall, he was a minus-13. Shots on goal in those 38 games? 30.

- Obviously, he's never missed a game this season, but he's also never seen less than 9:03 of ice time in any game this season. His average TOI is 12:38.

He simply sucks as badly as anyone in the NHL this season, bottom line.
 

Rocket of Russia

Needs more Tang
Mar 8, 2012
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USA
This response to Glass's quote deserves some more love:

Glass can go **** himself, or he and Bylsma can go **** each other.

That reads "Oh, we're so good and confident we don't have to number our bottom lines"

Honestly, eat ****. That guy shouldn't be saying "we" about anything.

One of the few drawbacks of having players with as little ego as Sid and Geno seem to have: idiots like Glass grow their heads into thinking they have some sort of role that is equally important. This is why I have no problem actually hating Glass and Adams, and not taking the blame how the coach uses them approach. "All for one and one for all!" No Gladams, you're well aware it's climb on board the USS Crosbalkin and drop anchor you ****ing leech.
 
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UnrealMachine

Registered User
Jul 9, 2012
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For my own amusement, I checked out Adams' numbers this season...

- He scored three GOALS in our first four games of the season, meaning he hasn't lit the lamp since October 11 against Florida.

- He has four assists in his last 16 games. That's actually decent by his standards. If this were his pace all season, it would suck a lot less.

- Brian McGrattan of the Flames has as many goals as Adams, with almost exactly half the ice time on average per game. And he's arguably the top enforcer in the NHL this season.

- Adams went a stretch of 38 games earlier this season without a point (November 2, 2013-January 25, 2014. In those 38 games, he was a plus player THREE times (+1 each time). Overall, he was a minus-13. Shots on goal in those 38 games? 30.

- Obviously, he's never missed a game this season, but he's also never seen less than 9:03 of ice time in any game this season. His average TOI is 12:38.

He simply sucks as badly as anyone in the NHL this season, bottom line.

He also has only 1 SH point over the last two seasons despite getting the most SHTOI. Glass has 0 over the same time period.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,240
19,326
For my own amusement, I checked out Adams' numbers this season...

- He scored three GOALS in our first four games of the season, meaning he hasn't lit the lamp since October 11 against Florida.

- He has four assists in his last 16 games. That's actually decent by his standards. If this were his pace all season, it would suck a lot less.

- Brian McGrattan of the Flames has as many goals as Adams, with almost exactly half the ice time on average per game. And he's arguably the top enforcer in the NHL this season.

- Adams went a stretch of 38 games earlier this season without a point (November 2, 2013-January 25, 2014. In those 38 games, he was a plus player THREE times (+1 each time). Overall, he was a minus-13. Shots on goal in those 38 games? 30.

- Obviously, he's never missed a game this season, but he's also never seen less than 9:03 of ice time in any game this season. His average TOI is 12:38.

He simply sucks as badly as anyone in the NHL this season, bottom line.

How many blocked shots does he have, hmm?

You are just focusing on all of the negative to give a skewerd view of an invaluable guy.
 

mpp9

Registered User
Dec 5, 2010
32,613
5,067
Salary cap.

Don't re-sign Nisky and you're there.

I just don't get why we want this team to be a fast puck possession type team that owns the boards but we saddle Geno with a guy that doesn't exhibit any of those traits. Make his line more in line with the identity of the team and you might see a more consistent Malkin.

I hope Shero agrees in the offseason.
 

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