Your top 10 Red Wings of all time

[irishock]

For me, based on on-ice talent, it's:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Sergei Fedorov
3. Pavel Datsyuk
4. Henrik Zetterberg
5. Steve Yzerman
6. Johan Franzen
7. Chris Osgood
8. Brendan Shanahan
9. Tomas Holmstrom
10. Nik Kronwall


I just can't take any of the players that dominated pre-late 90's seriously. To me, today's above average players like Tyler Myers, Val Filppula, would absolutely tear apart the 80's NHL. I'd have to give guys like Pavel the edge over Stevie simply because dominating today's league is so much more impressive. I'd give Crosby the edge over Gretzky as well. Don't even get me started on the Gordie Howes and Red Kellys.

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[Cyborg Yzerberg]

For me, based on on-ice talent, it's:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Sergei Fedorov
3. Pavel Datsyuk
4. Henrik Zetterberg
5. Steve Yzerman
6. Brendan Shanahan
7. Chris Osgood
8. Johan Franzen
9. Tomas Holmstrom
10. Nik Kronwall


I just can't take any of the players that dominated pre-late 90's seriously. To me, today's above average players like Tyler Myers, Val Filppula, would absolutely tear apart the 80's NHL. I'd have to give guys like Pavel the edge over Stevie simply because dominating today's league is so much more impressive. I'd give Crosby the edge over Gretzky as well. Don't even get me started on the Gordie Howes and Red Kellys.

Lol, what even?

 

[Heaton]

No offense, but when your list has Tomas Holmstrom of having more skill than Gordie Howe, there isn't much to seriously debate.

 

[BinCookin]

I just can't take any of the players that dominated pre-late 90's seriously. To me, today's above average players like Tyler Myers, Val Filppula, would absolutely tear apart the 80's NHL. I'd have to give guys like Pavel the edge over Stevie simply because dominating today's league is so much more impressive. I'd give Crosby the edge over Gretzky as well. Don't even get me started on the Gordie Howes and Red Kellys.

Circumstances. I get you don't respect the goalies from back in the day. But the only way to know for sure is to get a time machine and put them all in the same league all at age 25-27.

Gordie Howe has to be listed... I mean common man 1800+ pts is rated as "aw well, anyone in that era coulda done that... even Filppula?" Nah man, disagree.

BTW you have to realize the league now might have better goalies. But also it is better reffed.
I'll bet you in a game of Gordie vs Filppula.. Gordie just beats Filppula up in a fight. Or an Elbow to the head. Filppula is out of the game.

Straight up people were tougher back then. And much more brutal.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

With all due respect, you've got a lot to learn...

People act like the 80s was so far away. What they fail to realize is that many players have played across decades and with and against players from different eras. There's a lot of connection.

Look at Wayne Gretzky for instance. When he first entered the league, he was playing with and against some guys that had played in the 60s and even further back. Likewise, near the end of his career Wayne was playing with and against guys who are still playing today. That spans decades of players.

And guess what, old man Gretzky during his 2nd to last season still finished tied for 3rd in NHL scoring. Tied with Bure and 1 pt behind Forsberg. Think about that for a minute. Then take it all in and think about what you just typed.

 

[danincanada]

No offense, but when your list has Tomas Holmstrom of having more skill than Gordie Howe, there isn't much to seriously debate.

Agreed.

I'm a huge believer that it's generally tougher to dominate now because the sport has grown so much and the pros put a lot more into training and development but even I can't can't agree with this. Someone like Howe would be a great in any era. He was skilled, powerful, had a great hockey IQ, and ambidextrous.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Certainly today's players have superior diets, training, equipment, and ice to skate on but these things affect all the players. If you are going to judge old time players you have to look at what they did vs their peers. Sure if you took a physical specimen from today's game and transported him to 1955 he would likely be faster and stronger than Howe.(and everyone else) However if you brought Howe to 2014 he would benefit from modern training techniques. I would imagine being that he was the greatest player ever that he was a harder worker than most and therefore he would likely benefit from technology more than most.

Howe
Lidstrom
Yzerman
Abel
Delvechio
Federov
Zetterberg
Datsyuk
Kelly
Sawchuk

I didn't see the old timers play so I have no idea what order to put them in. I am pretty sure Howe was #1 though.

Some may disagree but I put Lidstrom pretty far ahead of Yzerman. Nick was the absolute best of his era while Stevie was 3rd or 4th best of his era. This is not to say Yzerman wasn't one of the best ever. The rest of the order is random.

 

[Frk It]

It matters how you dominated the era you played in. We don't know what hockey will be like in 20 years, so propping up guys playing now and slighting people that played in the past is dumb.

I mean Howe not even on someone's top 10 and Yzerman not at least in the top 3 makes no sense at all.

 

[SoupNazi]

For me, based on on-ice talent, it's:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom
2. Sergei Fedorov
3. Pavel Datsyuk
4. Henrik Zetterberg
5. Steve Yzerman
6. Brendan Shanahan
7. Chris Osgood
8. Johan Franzen
9. Tomas Holmstrom
10. Nik Kronwall


I just can't take any of the players that dominated pre-late 90's seriously. To me, today's above average players like Tyler Myers, Val Filppula, would absolutely tear apart the 80's NHL. I'd have to give guys like Pavel the edge over Stevie simply because dominating today's league is so much more impressive. I'd give Crosby the edge over Gretzky as well. Don't even get me started on the Gordie Howes and Red Kellys.

Howe? Abel? Sawchuk? Delvechio?

 

[irishock]

I think Gordie Howe would be a nice 3rd liner on the 2015 Red Wings, but he would have to fight to keep his spot.

Can Sid Abel even control the puck without keeping his eyes down on the puck the entire time? Can Red Kelly even give a good tape to tape pass lmfao.

Nicklas Lidstrom is not only the greatest Red Wing of all time, he's also a top 2 player of all time, probably behind Lemeiux.

Tomas Holmstrom, notorious for being terrible anywhere 10 feet away from the crease, would probably be the best player on the 1955 Red Wings.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I think Gordie Howe would be a nice 3rd liner on the 2015 Red Wings, but he would have to fight to keep his spot.

When you adjust his stats into the modern era, he's extremely dominant. Plus, when you compare players of respective eras, you compare domination relative to competition. If we are talking about the 10 best red wings as red wings, the list looks something like:

1. Howe
2. Lidstrom
3. Yzerman
4. Sawchuk
5. Lindsay
6. Fedorov
7. Kelly
8. Delvecchio
9. Abel
10. Datsyuk

HM: Pronovost, Ullman, and Zetterberg.

Really, players careers overlap eras. In 1997, as what, a 37 year old? Gretzky put up over 90 points, in the dead puck era, Lemieux was like 1.5 PPG in 2006 after cancer and many back injuries? Howe put up 20 goal seasons in his late 40's right before Gretzky started his career. Just silly to assume players can't compete across eras.

 

[probertrules24]

1. Bob Probert
2. Joe Kocur
3. Gordie Howe
4. Gerard Gallant
5. Ted Lindsay
6. Darren McCarty
7. Dennis Polonich
8. Reed Larson
9. Gary Bergman
10. Brendan Shanahan

or

1. Gordie Howe
2. Steve Yzerman
3. Alex Delvecchio
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Sergei Fedorov
6. Ted Lindsay
7. Pavel Datsyuk
8. Henrik Zetterberg
9. Terry Sawchuck
10. Brendan Shanahan

It's a tough list to come up with.

 

[irishock]

I see the old NHL players vs new NHL players argument the same as I do the MLB version. The reason I'd take Johan Franzen over Kelly, Howe, Delvechio, is the same reason I'd take Hunter Pence over Babe Ruth. I'm looking at strictly baseball/hockey talent.. it's more impressive to hit a 95 mph fastball than it is to hit 85. I'm sure Kelly and Howe looked amazing in their era but they don't hold a candle to today's players with the perfect combination of physicality and skill.

 

[irishock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPF-hOzfg4

You're telling me these players shown in the video can hold a candle to Johan Franzen in any game from 2008? These guys are slower than Holmstrom, less physical than Nestrasil, worse defensively than Gus Nyquist.

I swear I was convinced that the video was played in slow motion until I found out it was in real time.

 

[Frk It]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPF-hOzfg4

You're telling me these players shown in the video can hold a candle to Johan Franzen in any game from 2008? These guys are slower than Holmstrom, less physical than Nestrasil, worse defensively than Gus Nyquist.

I swear I was convinced that the video was played in slow motion until I found out it was in real time.

How is Franzen going to look compared to players 40-50 years from now? You have no idea.

You play in the era you do, and you should be judged on how you dominated that era.

 

[irishock]

How is Franzen going to look compared to players 40-50 years from now? You have no idea.

You play in the era you do, and you should be judged on how you dominated that era.

I judge things based on hockey talent from my two eyes. I'm not impressed at all with the best players that came out of a hockey era in which guys couldn't put together more than 3 passes in a row. If Gordie Howe were given the same development, nutrition, etc. as today's players, maybe he would've turned out to be a top 5 player, but I'm basing things off of the Gordie Howe that we saw, and quite frankly he's not capable of being in a top 6 in todays' NHL. He might've beaten out Deveareaux on that 02 team though.

I can imagine 2002 Datsuk ripping Gordie apart in practice, just dekeing on him the same way he did it on that TV reporter.

I mean Howe not even on someone's top 10 and Yzerman not at least in the top 3 makes no sense at all.

Regarding Yzerman, I used to think that he was a top 3 lock with Lidstrom and Fedorov, but after viewing some youtube videos and looking at the numbers, I'm just not as impressed by how he adapted to the game post-mid 90s. Yeah, he was great defensively but probably on par with Datsyuk/Z, and his offense wasn't as dominant as the other 2. I have him in the top 5 with Nick, Sergei, Pavel and Hank because those are the 5 Red Wings that should have their numbers retired.

 

[PullHard]

Well, this is a bad thread

Usually expect to see this kind of thing on the main board

 

[probertrules24]

Irishock,

I don't mean this to be rude but to gain context into your thinking. Please don't take it as me taking a shot.

Curious how long you have been a fan of hockey, have you been watching since many of the older retired players were in their primes. Just curious your age and if today's game is what you know.

 

[Outl4w]

1. Lidstrom
2. Yzerman
3. Fedorov
4. Howe
5. Datsyuk
6. Zetterberg
7. Sawchuk
8. Shannahan
9. Delvecchio
10. Osgood

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Regarding Yzerman, I used to think that he was a top 3 lock with Lidstrom and Fedorov, but after viewing some youtube videos and looking at the numbers, I'm just not as impressed by how he adapted to the game post-mid 90s. Yeah, he was great defensively but probably on par with Datsyuk/Z, and his offense wasn't as dominant as the other 2. I have him in the top 5 with Nick, Sergei, Pavel and Hank because those are the 5 Red Wings that should have their numbers retired.

You're NOT impressed by how he adapted his game?

If anything, that's the most impressive thing about Yzerman's career.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

I think Gordie Howe would be a nice 3rd liner on the 2015 Red Wings, but he would have to fight to keep his spot.

GORDIE HOWE! (Mr. Hockey) 6 Art Ross, 6 Hart trophies, 4 Stanley cups. 800+ goals? U can't be serious don't be dissing Gordie. Leaving Mr. Hockey off your list and then saying he's a 3rd liner is disrespectful and shows your lack of knowledge of red wing history. Dissing Gordie especially after his recent stroke, is poor judgement.

 

[SoupNazi]

We're done here.