Your reaction if Detroit were to miss the playoffs and land the #1 overall pick....

HisNoodliness

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Jun 29, 2014
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I'd take the 1st overall and win several Cups. Totes magotes. A successful cup run comes down to endurance, a percentage chance based off of the quality of your players and coaching, and a whole lot of luck, and I'd rather increase our chances significantly over several years than have a cup and remain an average team with low chances of a successful cup run.

Yeah I understand that, but I still don't know which I'd choose. Winning the cup is hard and even with McDavid we wouldn't be by-far the best team or anything. We'd have a good chance of winning, but I'm not sure if he elevates us so much that I'd give up a cup to have him
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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Don't be revisionist, the Kings were not just an 8th seed that surprised. They completely turned their season around near the end, ala 2015 Senators

I don't think the Senators compare well to the Kings either. The Kings entered that season as a big favorite. I know a lot of people myself included thought they would win it all that year. They struggled through the first half, added a major piece on top of bonafide superstars, started to play a lot better hockey.

Karlsson is a great hockey player, he isn't Doughty defensively... Kopitar and Carter are both a lot better than Turris... Top to bottom they are better and Quick wasn't just a hot streak guy, he was a goalie most believed in.

I don't think we can look at ourselves as the Kings, but then again Ottawa shouldn't be looked at like that either. They have a major talent deficit in terms of that lofty comparison.

That Kings team was fairly unique.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Several different "this or that" comparisons going on here. For me:

A guaranteed Cup >>>>>>> ANYTHING else.

Then it's:

Franchise player > Other substantial changes > Token playoff appearance > No playoffs, but no changes, either.
 

Vatican Roulette

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To be honest, this team is a guaranteed 1st round win...for the team they play.

Missing the playoffs, hopefully, will be a wake up call to the front office no matter where they pick. Won't happen, SSDD.

1st would be awesome though.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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Missing the playoffs, hopefully, will be a wake up call to the front office no matter where they pick.

This team has barely scraped into the playoffs several times recently. Make no mistake, Ken Holland and all of the management is aware the Wings aren't a powerhouse. They've been upfront with their long-term goals and won't start deviating from the slow build because they missed the playoffs by a point.

But take heart, "the plan" does include upgrading the defense. Holland has been quite open about trying to sign every decent defender free agent and of course the big Phaneuf deadline talks. We haven't heard the last of the Phaneuf talks, is an educated guess.

I don't think Holland is satisfied with the team, but he's also the least reactionary GM in the league. His "panic move" was trading a B prospect in Jarnkrok for Legwand. That's about as dramatic as it gets for him. Otherwise he's going to keep relying on his scouts and drafting players to bring into the fold year after year. It's a slow burn process, no doubt. It's incredibly frustrating when the team can't get to that next level.

But, to the Wing's credit, I don't think they are delusional about the defense. They are simply in a league where over half the teams in it are also looking to upgrade their blueline. There's more average to below average bluelines in the NHL than there are good to great ones. And that's why 2nd pairing guys with any skill at all are going to keep getting over $5 million a year.

We're not going to see dramatic changes to the Wings until Datsyuk retires. Until then, Holland needs to find a way to FINALLY sign key free agents or swing a trade of substance. He's been unable to do so in years and that's the real tarnish to his recent resume. He's tried, he really has, but after years of trying eventually the efforts aren't enough to maintain position both with morale and in the standings.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
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This team has barely scraped into the playoffs several times recently. Make no mistake, Ken Holland and all of the management is aware the Wings aren't a powerhouse. They've been upfront with their long-term goals and won't start deviating from the slow build because they missed the playoffs by a point.

But take heart, "the plan" does include upgrading the defense. Holland has been quite open about trying to sign every decent defender free agent and of course the big Phaneuf deadline talks. We haven't heard the last of the Phaneuf talks, is an educated guess.

I don't think Holland is satisfied with the team, but he's also the least reactionary GM in the league. His "panic move" was trading a B prospect in Jarnkrok for Legwand. That's about as dramatic as it gets for him. Otherwise he's going to keep relying on his scouts and drafting players to bring into the fold year after year. It's a slow burn process, no doubt. It's incredibly frustrating when the team can't get to that next level.

But, to the Wing's credit, I don't think they are delusional about the defense. They are simply in a league where over half the teams in it are also looking to upgrade their blueline. There's more average to below average bluelines in the NHL than there are good to great ones. And that's why 2nd pairing guys with any skill at all are going to keep getting over $5 million a year.

We're not going to see dramatic changes to the Wings until Datsyuk retires. Until then, Holland needs to find a way to FINALLY sign key free agents or swing a trade of substance. He's been unable to do so in years and that's the real tarnish to his recent resume. He's tried, he really has, but after years of trying eventually the efforts aren't enough to maintain position both with morale and in the standings.

And what exactly IS "the plan" to turn this defense around? None of these guys in Grand Rapids are blue-chip guys. We're not over-flowing with talent on defense, like we are up front.

And then on the big club we have guys like Ericsson who have been lackluster, Smith who has not improved since last year's playoffs, and Kindl who gets scratched nightly. We have Kronwall, Dekeyser.... and what? I loved the Zidlicky trade, but is he even going to be here in 6 months? Or does his body hold up at his age? Who knows...

You say he's not reactionary, but he wasn't going after guys in free agency like he did this year... until this year. When Lidstrom and Raffy were towards the end, he balked at the prices that were handed out for Ehrhoff and Wisniewski type guys, and opted instead for the bargain bin guys like Ian White. A guy who was good for a hot minute for the Wings, then is playing in some league I've never heard of now. Instead of guys who could still be here and contributing now.

But then now this off-season he finally wants to pay to play, and we're supposed to believe it was part of some master plan? No. He failed to address the defense until it was too late. He put too many of his eggs in the Ryan Suter basket. He drafted guys in the 1st round that haven't panned out, and the guys waiting in the wings are just solid, but unspectacular. These prospects on defense aren't Mantha and Larkin level talents. They're not.

There's no reason to believe things are going to get better, because things have just gotten steadily worse for the last 3-4 years. (on defense)
 
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Bench

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And what exactly IS "the plan" to turn this defense around?

Your post addressed that the plan didn't work. I'm not in disagreement. Note this part:

Holland needs to find a way to FINALLY sign key free agents or swing a trade of substance. He's been unable to do so in years and that's the real tarnish to his recent resume. He's tried, he really has, but after years of trying eventually the efforts aren't enough to maintain position both with morale and in the standings.

He's tried and failed. The plan was to get bring in a Suter. Or trade for a Phaneuf. While also signing a Niskanen. Sprinkle those guys in while folding in guys like Kindl and Smith. Unfortunately, neither Kindl or Smith are that great. And Ericsson hasn't lived up to his previous play. There's been miscalculations on multiple levels.

But miscalculating doesn't mean you're not following your script. He's only going to make offers to players the team truly values and rely on drafting for the rest. The current blueline is a combination of not getting the valued players while also drafting poorly at the blueline. Basically worse case scenario. But still following the script, I'm afraid. And if anyone thinks he's going to starting swinging trades like Holmgren because the Wings slide out of the playoffs, that's ignoring a very, very large body of work. And that's mainly what my post was addressing.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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Your post addressed that the plan didn't work. I'm not in disagreement. Note this part:

Holland needs to find a way to FINALLY sign key free agents or swing a trade of substance. He's been unable to do so in years and that's the real tarnish to his recent resume. He's tried, he really has, but after years of trying eventually the efforts aren't enough to maintain position both with morale and in the standings.

He's tried and failed. The plan was to get bring in a Suter. Or trade for a Phaneuf. While also signing a Niskanen. Sprinkle those guys in while folding in guys like Kindl and Smith. Unfortunately, neither Kindl or Smith are that great. And Ericsson hasn't lived up to his previous play. There's been miscalculations on multiple levels.

But miscalculating doesn't mean you're not following your script. He's only going to make offers to players the team truly values and rely on drafting for the rest. The current blueline is a combination of not getting the valued players while also drafting poorly at the blueline. Basically worse case scenario. But still following the script, I'm afraid. And if anyone thinks he's going to starting swinging trades like Holmgren because the Wings slide out of the playoffs, that's ignoring a very, very large body of work. And that's mainly what my post was addressing.

I know that Holland isn't going to change his tactics, even if he failed to execute his own strategy as you said.

But his strategy has failed, so I don't have a ton of faith in him correcting the defense. Also why I would like to see him move on personally, but I know that's not happening against his will.

The good news is he has worked magic in the last 2 drafts in the 1st round, so maybe he can grab a Kylington or impact guy in the 1st that can BE that blue chip prospect we desperately need. Not many better talent evaluators out there than Holland, even Hakan Andersson has said as much, and I have a ton of respect for Hakan. But if it's not done with the draft, he really has had nothing to fall back on. So let's hope we make it count this year.
 
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Bench

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I know that Holland isn't going to change his tactics, even if he failed to execute his own strategy as you said.

But his strategy has failed, so I don't have a ton of faith in him correcting the defense. Also why I would like to see him move on personally, but I know that's not happening against his will.

The good news is he has worked magic in the last 2 drafts in the 1st round, so maybe he can grab a Kylington or impact guy in the 1st that can BE that blue chip prospect we desperately need. Not many better talent evaluators out there than Holland, even Hakan Andersson has said as much, and I have a ton of respect for Hakan. But if it's not done with the draft, he really has had nothing to fall back on. So let's hope we make it count this year.

You could very well be right.

But the hopeless optimist in me imagines this team could look completely different if they were able to swing for two impact defenders in the off-season. There's one available by trade (Phaneuf) and one by free agency (Green). And I think retaining Zidlicky wouldn't hurt.

This type of scenario has been available a few off-seasons, so it's hard to be too hopeful, I understand. I really do. But at some point... we're due, right?
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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You could very well be right.

But the hopeless optimist in me imagines this team could look completely different if they were able to swing for two impact defenders in the off-season. There's one available by trade (Phaneuf) and one by free agency (Green). And I think retaining Zidlicky wouldn't hurt.

This type of scenario has been available a few off-seasons, so it's hard to be too hopeful, I understand. I really do. But at some point... we're due, right?

I would be happy with Phaneuf OR Green. Though I'd be quite a bit happier with Green.

Honestly don't see us coming out of free agency on top as that likely, but maybe I'm just jaded. I think we absolutely have to acquire rights before the window opens, for us to succeed there. The feeding frenzy on opening day has not been our friend with the big names, to say the least.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
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The feeding frenzy on opening day has not been our friend with the big names, to say the least.

I'm going to go ahead and open up an old wound now. Are you ready? I hope all of you are ready.

Kevin Shattenkirk wrote an article about "Elite Defensemen". This is what he had to say about Suter:
"Cerebral. You have to recognize him as one of the smartest defensemen in the league. Suter is probably the player most similar to Nick Lidström that we have in the game today."
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Nov 8, 2011
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I'm going to go ahead and open up an old wound now. Are you ready? I hope all of you are ready.

Kevin Shattenkirk wrote an article about "Elite Defensemen". This is what he had to say about Suter:
"Cerebral. You have to recognize him as one of the smartest defensemen in the league. Suter is probably the player most similar to Nick Lidström that we have in the game today."

Ricelund is still dead to me....:laugh:

Many of us said this at the time by the way. Seems Shattenkirk agrees with several on our board. No Lidstrom but if you're looking for a guy that has a lions share of his traits while not quite as good it is Ryan Suter.
 

Zetterberg4Captain

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Aug 11, 2009
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i think dion phaneuf ends up in detroit this summer

howe has now been seen as recently as last week scouting toronto again and their is only one reason why, dion phaneuf

after that though we need to add another dman through free agency and move out some bodies

kronwall-ufa
dekeyser-phaneuf
ericsson-marchenko
ouellet
 

jkutswings

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I agree with several points being made, but my biggest objection to Holland's "slow build" is that, statistically, defensemen take longer to develop. So even if we had the best 2015 prospect in the world, I'd be shocked if he's a significant impact within 3 years. And by then, the Eurotwins are at best role players, but more likely retired.

If they don't trade prospects up front for IMMEDIATE and SIGNIFICANT blueline help, there isn't a goalie on earth that will make things look good once 13 & 40 are gone.
 

Eggberto

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Oct 26, 2013
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I agree with several points being made, but my biggest objection to Holland's "slow build" is that, statistically, defensemen take longer to develop. So even if we had the best 2015 prospect in the world, I'd be shocked if he's a significant impact within 3 years. And by then, the Eurotwins are at best role players, but more likely retired.

If they don't trade prospects up front for IMMEDIATE and SIGNIFICANT blueline help, there isn't a goalie on earth that will make things look good once 13 & 40 are gone.

Tell that to the Florida Panthers and Ekblad!
 

RedMenace

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And how many Ekblads are there to go around? Suters? (Shea) Webers? Karlssons? (PK) Subbans? Not every defensive prospect can be a blue-chipper or Maruchan Instant Star, and there's a reason you have "defense by committee" more often than not.

This notion that Holland is a failure because the Wings haven't pulled a rabbit out of the Draft Hat or traded away the future in a lop-sided trade - because, let's face it, nobody's going to do the Wings a solid - is getting tiresome.

On the topic at hand:

5446429+_4c4eca1fcc2d74a5c03a2767a182dd46.jpg
 

Ozz

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Oct 25, 2009
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I'd laugh. Same as with any fine team that got unlucky in the playoff race & lucky in the draft.
 

Retire91

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I think missing the playoffs would actually help the team. Its obvious the organization is sustaining mediocrity to make the playoffs at all cost underscored by season after season of deadline trades for questionable veteran mediocrity season after season. The cost is an ever declining mediocre team where the prospect pool is not restocked with franchise talent. The organization deservers a lot of credit for picks like Lidstrom, Daytsuk, and Zetterberg but lets face it your organization can not "Plan" to hit home runs in the late rounds on a continued basis. At some point you need near-garunteed franchise talent to build around in the top 10 where size and talent are combined and the players are not usually projects. The last 6-7 years wings have developed good prospects and a few great ones but there is no clear franchise talent on this roster after D and Z. As much as its nice for them to make the playoffs becasue "anything can happen" it would be a huge suprise if this team isn't out in 4 or 5 games. Its nice to get in the playoffs when D and Z are still here but I would rather have a 2% chance at McDavid than a .000000000000000000000000000001% chance at the cup. Besides D and Z are always too injured to be relied upon anymore anyway

I vote for a chance in the lottery.

Defense is laughable, goaltending questionable, and one of D or Z almost certain to be playing injured. Not an exciting playoff run
 

ZDH

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I did the lotto thing and the panthers won it on my first click. 2.whatever% chance.
 

Vatican Roulette

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i think dion phaneuf ends up in detroit this summer

howe has now been seen as recently as last week scouting toronto again and their is only one reason why, dion phaneuf

after that though we need to add another dman through free agency and move out some bodies

kronwall-ufa
dekeyser-phaneuf
ericsson-marchenko
ouellet

Only problem I have with acquiring Phaneuf is the cost Holland is willing to pay.

His recent track record isn't good "value" wise.

It seems like other GM's can talk him into his players being less than what they're worth.
 

Vladdy84

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Only problem I have with acquiring Phaneuf is the cost Holland is willing to pay.

His recent track record isn't good "value" wise.

It seems like other GM's can talk him into his players being less than what they're worth.

Are you serious?

C'mon man. He's dealt away alleged malcontents and players that were not going to make an immediate impact had they stayed for players the Wings needed in order to make the playoffs.

Every GM Kenneth has talked to the past 3 years has said Mantha, Larkin, Tatar, Nyquist, Mrazek and Ken has hung up the phone.

It's not like he traded a 1st for Perron or Forsberg for Martin Erat. Or any of the other ridiculous and pricey trades that have gone down recently.

Maintained the re-build on the fly while keeping all the core prospects and young players. Unfortunately, injuries have derailed the team. Not to mention, porous coaching at times.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I think missing the playoffs would actually help the team. Its obvious the organization is sustaining mediocrity to make the playoffs at all cost underscored by season after season of deadline trades for questionable veteran mediocrity season after season. The cost is an ever declining mediocre team where the prospect pool is not restocked with franchise talent. The organization deservers a lot of credit for picks like Lidstrom, Daytsuk, and Zetterberg but lets face it your organization can not "Plan" to hit home runs in the late rounds on a continued basis. At some point you need near-garunteed franchise talent to build around in the top 10 where size and talent are combined and the players are not usually projects. The last 6-7 years wings have developed good prospects and a few great ones but there is no clear franchise talent on this roster after D and Z. As much as its nice for them to make the playoffs becasue "anything can happen" it would be a huge suprise if this team isn't out in 4 or 5 games. Its nice to get in the playoffs when D and Z are still here but I would rather have a 2% chance at McDavid than a .000000000000000000000000000001% chance at the cup. Besides D and Z are always too injured to be relied upon anymore anyway

I vote for a chance in the lottery.

Defense is laughable, goaltending questionable, and one of D or Z almost certain to be playing injured. Not an exciting playoff run

This is the best the Wings prospect pool has been since the early 90's, you know when they kicked this whole thing off.

The young guy's coming through have helped put them in the playoffs the last two years, not been hanger-on type players. Not everything is stellar, but this isn't the slow decline into mediocrity. It is a reverse bell-curve in my opinion and we are trending back up.
 

BinCookin

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Feb 15, 2012
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If you told me We make the playoffs for the next 5 years... Or miss for the next 3... but we get McDavid. Worth it.

He is going to be that good, and as a detroit fan... I have never SEEN a high pick for us... let alone a Gretzky/Crosby type. It would be insane. And I think he would make the NHL 1st year.

But would they start him in the AHL? I wonder how detroit would actually handle someone that good. Like 20-25 games in the AHL before coming to Detroit. I honestly can't even imagine us doing that. Depends how heavy he is. If he needs to put on weight. Ironically it might be safer to let him mature 1 more year, than to break some of his bones... but who knows.
 
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