Your Preferred Line-up

[RedWingsNow*]

I went back and looked at some of the old Bowman teams from 97/98 to about 00/01, and something I noticed is that during the regular season Yzerman and Fedorov shouldered a good chunk of SH IT, but less ES IT, leaving more ES time for the Grind line. It wasn't until the playoffs that we saw Draper and Maltby take on a larger share of the SH time, and ES time shift back to Yzerman and Fedorov.

Not necessarily a recipe for how to use our roster now, but I thought it was interesting the different ways Bowman and Babcock used the troops and delegated IT.

We've got the ability to role four lines.
I think we could have had that ability last year, even without Helm...if we used Tatar on Datsyuk's line and had Abby centering Tootoo and Miller on line 4.

Realistically, it isn't like our depth guys are good penalty killers anyway.

 

[jroc86]

Ideal lineup:
Zett Datsyuk Bertuzzi (*ONLY IF TRULY healthy ... very good fit IMO)
Franzen Weiss Alfie
Nyquist Anderson Tatar
Adbelakader Helm Miller/Eaves

Kronwall Ericsson
Smith Dekeyser
Quincey Kindl

 

[sarcastro]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....=avgEvenStrengthTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

The math adds up
And I'm not talking about 4 scoring lines. I';m talking about 3 scoring lines and an energy line.

Zetterberg played 15:20 and Datsyuk 15:11 at ES last year. In 2002, Fedorov led the team's forwards with 13:35 at ES.

Reduce their ES time. Roll Four.
Top line 13
Second line 12
Third line 12
Fourth line 10-11
That adds up to 48 minutes
Last year the Wings spent 564 minute on special teams. Average of 11:45 per game

Factor in 4 on 4 time + OT -- there's easily enough time.

Then the better players top off their TOI with PP and SH TIme.

LESS ES time for Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Our team will be better and D-Z won't be worn down by March.

We've got roster depth. Let's use it

But didn't you also suggest that they play Hank and Pavel on the PK to help make up for the lack of Miller, Eaves, and Emmerton in your lineup? Does trading ES time for PK time really prevent them from wearing down? Seems it would be the opposite - ES minutes are much easier on the body than PK minutes.

If you wanted to say shave a couple minutes off their ES time and stack them on the PP, that would make some more sense as those minutes are lower-impact (for everyone but Homer and the guys filling his role).

And I still think your lower-end guys get too much burn under that scenario. If you factor in PK time and you stack your PKers on the 4th line, they're getting close to 15 minutes a night, and that's a mistake. They have depth, but not enough to make that work long-term.

Conversely, if you're pulling PKers off of every line then you don't have any full fresh lines to start a PK and you don't have any to put out right after a PK.

If you put your main PK unit on the 4th line and limit their ES time, you get a much more effective PK. I want Miller and Eaves and Andersson out there blocking PK shots, not Hank and Pavel and Alfredsson. And I want Hank and Pavel and Alfredsson to skate and score goals, whether that's at ES or PP.

Taking ES minutes from Hank and Pavel and giving them to Tootoo and Andersson does not make this team better.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

But didn't you also suggest that they play Hank and Pavel on the PK to help make up for the lack of Miller, Eaves, and Emmerton in your lineup? Does trading ES time for PK time really prevent them from wearing down? Seems it would be the opposite - ES minutes are much easier on the body than PK minutes.

I suggested 4 PK pairings. So if you have 6 minutes a night on the PK, that's about 90 seconds.

If you wanted to say shave a couple minutes off their ES time and stack them on the PP, that would make some more sense as those minutes are lower-impact (for everyone but Homer and the guys filling his role).

I don't think they'd see a ton more PP time either.,
Say the first unit of --
Z-Pavel-Franzen
Kronwall Alfredsson
So they'd probably get 4 of the 6

And then
Nyquistr Weiss Tatar
Smith Kindl
Would get 2.

And I still think your lower-end guys get too much burn under that scenario. If you factor in PK time and you stack your PKers on the 4th line, they're getting close to 15 minutes a night, and that's a mistake. They have depth, but not enough to make that work long-term.

Scotty Bowman made it work.

Conversely, if you're pulling PKers off of every line then you don't have any full fresh lines to start a PK and you don't have any to put out right after a PK.

If you;re rolling 4 you've always got fresh lines.

If you put your main PK unit on the 4th line and limit their ES time, you get a much more effective PK. I want Miller and Eaves and Andersson out there blocking PK shots, not Hank and Pavel and Alfredsson. And I want Hank and Pavel and Alfredsson to skate and score goals, whether that's at ES or PP.

Blocked Shots = Red Herring.
I want our best defensive players on the PK.

I want our best two way players to be engaged in every facet of the game.

Taking ES minutes from Hank and Pavel and giving them to Tootoo and Andersson does not make this team better.

So let's just ban the fourth and third lines and go with two lines.

 

[Heaton]

"Scotty Bowman made it work"

Apples and oranges no? He had elite hall of fame talent on both offense and defense. It's a great theory, I just don't think we have the talent right now.

On that same vein, while Scotty is the best coach ever, he also had the best talent ever. It kinda helps.

 

[SoupNazi]

Scotty Bowman made it work.

Mike Babcock is not Scotty Bowman, though.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Mike Babcock is not Scotty Bowman, though.

You needn't remind me.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

"Scotty Bowman made it work"

Apples and oranges no? He had elite hall of fame talent on both offense and defense. It's a great theory, I just don't think we have the talent right now.

On that same vein, while Scotty is the best coach ever, he also had the best talent ever. It kinda helps.

I do think we have some talent if we use it.

We had the talent last year. We chose to bury Tatar in the A, misuse Abdelkader on line 1, and have a fourth line that had no real ability or skill, offensively or defensively.

Our third line of Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar gave us, essentially, three puck possession lines.

And that's why we beat Anaheim and nearly beat Chicago.

All I'm suggesting is doing the same -- but using our manpower to enhance the lineup -- to give us three strong scoring/puck possession lines -- but then also give us a fourth line that has a real purpose -- not some BS Miller-Emmerton-Eaves crap.

I don't care too much how it's done-
Maybe you go
Bertuzzi Datsyuk Alfredsson
Weiss Zetterberg Franzen
Nyquist Andersson Tatar

I think we had the horses last year and if we use Tatar, we have them again.

 

[SoupNazi]

You needn't remind me.

When you point out that Bowman made it work on a team coached by Babcock, I feel it's necessary.

 

[Heaton]

I do think we have some talent if we use it.

We had the talent last year. We chose to bury Tatar in the A, misuse Abdelkader on line 1, and have a fourth line that had no real ability or skill, offensively or defensively.

Our third line of Nyquist-Andersson-Tatar gave us, essentially, three puck possession lines.

And that's why we beat Anaheim and nearly beat Chicago.

All I'm suggesting is doing the same -- but using our manpower to enhance the lineup -- to give us three strong scoring/puck possession lines -- but then also give us a fourth line that has a real purpose -- not some BS Miller-Emmerton-Eaves crap.

I don't care too much how it's done-
Maybe you go
Bertuzzi Datsyuk Alfredsson
Weiss Zetterberg Franzen
Nyquist Andersson Tatar

I think we had the horses last year and if we use Tatar, we have them again.

I guess I should've said proven talent. Bowman had guys he could trust without any issues. Babcock has to learn if these guys can do it still. But I agree he has to use them first to see what he has.

 

[odin1981]

Pre playoffs and if everyone is healthy:

40-13-11
Nyquist(14?)-Weiss-Franzen
Tatar-Andersson-Tootoo
Abby-43-Eaves
Bertuzzi and Miller back ups

Kronwall- Ericcson
Dekeyeser-Smith
Kindl- anyone but quincy/lashoff (so say a holland wheel and deal as if)
lashoff

Sammy ltir'd (don't care if he is healthy fail him on purpose during physical for saying he would not accept a trade)

Playoffs with line matching for stacked centers:

93-40-Alfie
Abby-13-Bertuzzi
Nyquist-Weiss-Tatar
Anderrson-Helm-Tootoo
eaves, miller

same d hopefully by playoffs quincy is gone or somehow cocoons into a steady stay at home d.

 

[Winger98]

Here's my lineup, assuming Helm is on LTIR and everyone else is healthy.

Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($5.500m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($1.750m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Drew Miller ($1.350m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Jordin Tootoo ($0.975m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,114,545; BONUSES: $3,010,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,195,455

We've got the ability to role four lines.
I think we could have had that ability last year, even without Helm...if we used Tatar on Datsyuk's line and had Abby centering Tootoo and Miller on line 4.

Realistically, it isn't like our depth guys are good penalty killers anyway.

If they had been willing to run with Nyquist and Tatar from the beginning last season, I think they could have made all sorts of combos that would have been interesting to see.Not finding room for them was, and is, a mistake.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Here's my lineup, assuming Helm is on LTIR and everyone else is healthy.

Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($5.500m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($1.750m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Drew Miller ($1.350m) /

Like the way you lineup down the middle. But I don't like lines 3 and line 4.
I feel like Weiss is doomed to fail with Cleary and Sammy. And I think Bert/Andersson/Abby is too slow to be good defensively or offensively.
Using the same guys you did I'd go:

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Nyquist Zetterberg Franzen
Cleary Weiss Alfredsson
Abdelkader Andersson Samuelsson

-- Even still, not really happy with my fourth line, whcih isn't particularly effective at anything

Might switch it up a little more.

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Franzen Zetterberg Samuelsson
Nyquist Weiss Alfredsson
Cleary Andersson Abdelkader

Or one more iteration.
Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Franzen Zetterberg Andersson
Nyquist Weiss Alfredsson
Cleary Abdelkader Samuelsson

Either way -- I'll take Tootoo over Samuelsson on line 4.

DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Jordin Tootoo ($0.975m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,114,545; BONUSES: $3,010,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,195,455

The strange thing is that we'd doing a lot of handwringing about our forwards...but man, is our D shallow

If they had been willing to run with Nyquist and Tatar from the beginning last season, I think they could have made all sorts of combos that would have been interesting to see.Not finding room for them was, and is, a mistake.

100 percent agreed.
These guys should have had full rookie years last year.
We should have let Cleary and Miller go and let Ferraro and Sheahan and Jurco compete for jobs this year.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Here's my lineup, assuming Helm is on LTIR and everyone else is healthy.

Tomas Tatar ($0.840m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($5.500m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.950m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($1.750m) / Stephen Weiss ($4.900m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Joakim Andersson ($0.733m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.800m)
Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Drew Miller ($1.350m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.775m) / Brendan Smith ($1.263m)
Danny DeKeyser ($1.350m) / Jakub Kindl ($2.400m)
Brian Lashoff ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($5.292m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
OTHER
Buried: Jordin Tootoo ($0.975m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,114,545; BONUSES: $3,010,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,195,455



If they had been willing to run with Nyquist and Tatar from the beginning last season, I think they could have made all sorts of combos that would have been interesting to see.Not finding room for them was, and is, a mistake.

I like the top two lines, but I think lines 3 and 4 would be a mess.

Cleary and Samuelsson together seems like a disaster for Weiss, and we've never seen Andersson succeed without a speedy skilled winger. At all times last year he had either Tatar or Nyquist on one wing, with either Eaves or Brunner on the other. Bertuzzi is only good in the offensive zone now and Abdelkader is not a puck carrier. Tatar and Nyquist were puck carriers for Andersson last year.

 

[Vladdy84]

Preferred as things stand now if I had my way?

Dats-Z-Gator/Bert
Tatar-Weiss-Alfie
Mule-Andersson-Nyquist
Miller-Helm-Bert/Gator
Toots
Eaves
Emmerton
Cleary

Nevermind, I wouldn't put Dats and Z together. I forgot about my way.

I don't care what anyone says. If Bert is healthy. That would be great.

I liked that combo of Bert-Dats-Tatar I saw from one of the above posters.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I am going to be realistic here. So this is based on what I see now after today.

Zetterberg datsyuk abdelkader
franzen alfie weiss
andersson cleary samuelsson
emmerton bertuzzi tootoo

eaves miller


Tatar traded helm LTIR nyquist buried

Is not a good day.

 

[Winger98]

Like the way you lineup down the middle. But I don't like lines 3 and line 4.
I feel like Weiss is doomed to fail with Cleary and Sammy. And I think Bert/Andersson/Abby is too slow to be good defensively or offensively.
Using the same guys you did I'd go:

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Nyquist Zetterberg Franzen
Cleary Weiss Alfredsson
Abdelkader Andersson Samuelsson

-- Even still, not really happy with my fourth line, whcih isn't particularly effective at anything

Might switch it up a little more.

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Franzen Zetterberg Samuelsson
Nyquist Weiss Alfredsson
Cleary Andersson Abdelkader

Or one more iteration.
Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Franzen Zetterberg Andersson
Nyquist Weiss Alfredsson
Cleary Abdelkader Samuelsson

Either way -- I'll take Tootoo over Samuelsson on line 4.

The strange thing is that we'd doing a lot of handwringing about our forwards...but man, is our D shallow

100 percent agreed.
These guys should have had full rookie years last year.
We should have let Cleary and Miller go and let Ferraro and Sheahan and Jurco compete for jobs this year.

I'm not sure what to expect of Andersson at center. I liked him last year, but he either had Tatar or Nyquist with him to do the puck lugging. Having him center the fourth line is a difficult spot to have that unless we sit someone and put Eaves out there - which I wouldn't be entirely against. if Andersson can effectively move the puck into the offensive zone, we have a lot of options with him. If not...well, it gets a bit more difficult.

I wish Babcock would take on Hitch's idea for line creation - find pairs that work, and then cycle guys in and out of those third spots. I look at our lineup right now, and I think Datsyuk and Alfredsson could do well together. We know Zetterberg has done well with Franzen in the past. Weiss? maybe Nyquist? Maybe Tatar? Hell, maybe someone out of the blue like Bertuzzi or Cleary.

Then use the ton of meh guys we have to fill in the gaps and go with the hot hand. Regardless of who you plug in where, I think the most important aspect is covered - we're strong down the middle. If we can win those match-ups, and we have the depth to do it, I like our chances most nights.

And our D is shallow. I think Almquist should get a shot over Lashoff, but it's not going to happen. I guess our one saving grace is what we lack in experienced/quality depth, we make up for with talent in GR. injuries hit and someone is going to get a look.

 

[Vladdy84]

I'm not sure what to expect of Andersson at center. I liked him last year, but he either had Tatar or Nyquist with him to do the puck lugging. Having him center the fourth line is a difficult spot to have that unless we sit someone and put Eaves out there - which I wouldn't be entirely against. if Andersson can effectively move the puck into the offensive zone, we have a lot of options with him. If not...well, it gets a bit more difficult.

I wish Babcock would take on Hitch's idea for line creation - find pairs that work, and then cycle guys in and out of those third spots. I look at our lineup right now, and I think Datsyuk and Alfredsson could do well together. We know Zetterberg has done well with Franzen in the past. Weiss? maybe Nyquist? Maybe Tatar? Hell, maybe someone out of the blue like Bertuzzi or Cleary.

Then use the ton of meh guys we have to fill in the gaps and go with the hot hand. Regardless of who you plug in where, I think the most important aspect is covered - we're strong down the middle. If we can win those match-ups, and we have the depth to do it, I like our chances most nights.

And our D is shallow. I think Almquist should get a shot over Lashoff, but it's not going to happen. I guess our one saving grace is what we lack in experienced/quality depth, we make up for with talent in GR. injuries hit and someone is going to get a look.

It's funny. I'm not a big fan of Andersson. Have always thought he's merely a mediocre defensively responsible slow-footed 4th line center. But with everything else going on and Helm status I'm fine with him being a 3rd line center I guess. It's something I've just begun to accept with everything else going on. Can you imagine a 3rd line of

Cleary-Andersson-Bert/Sammy?

WOOF. Arguably the slowest 3rd line in the league. WOOF.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Assuming full health (and Bertuzzi being a good player):

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfredsson
Franzen-Weiss-Bertuzzi
Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist
Abdelkader-Helm-Miller/Eaves/Toots

I'd try to roll 4 lines as much as winning allowed.

Assuming Helm is not ready and Bertuzzi is not the same player:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfredsson
Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist
Tatar-Andersson-Abdelkader
Eaves/Tootoo-Emmerton-Miller

To switch things up:

Tatar/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Alfredsson
Zetterberg-Weiss-Franzen
Tatar/Nyquist-Andersson-Abdelkader
Eaves/Tootoo-Emmerton-Miller

 

[Yzerman1919*]

Why do ppl insist on making lineups with Cleary NOT in it, he is going to play.

Z-Pav-Abby
Franzen-Weiss-Alfie
Nyquist-Anderson-Cleary
Tatar-Helm/Emmerton-Miller

Eaves/Bert/Sammy???

or Z-Pav-Alfie
Franzen-Weiss-Cleary
Nyquist-Anderson-Bert
Tatar-Abby-Miller

Eaves/Sammy???

 

[KJoe88]

I would update mine, but I'm too depressed.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Why do ppl insist on making lineups with Cleary NOT in it, he is going to play.

Probably because the thread title is "Your preferred lineup" rather than "Babcock's likely lineup."

 

[Wayne Crosby]

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen
Nyquist - Weiss - Alfredsson
Tatar - Helm - Abdelkader
Miller - Andersson - Eaves

Cleary/Tootoo

But of course, this will never happen.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

"Scotty Bowman made it work"

Apples and oranges no? He had elite hall of fame talent on both offense and defense. It's a great theory, I just don't think we have the talent right now.

On that same vein, while Scotty is the best coach ever, he also had the best talent ever. It kinda helps.

I get where RWN is coming from actually. Maybe we are all a little too close to this.

Remember bowman if lines were not working would switch them up? During games especially in playoffs even when sometimes didnt seem logical?

I look at a guy in baseball like Joe Maddon a lot of times moves he makes stat wise even though he always knows the stats dont make a lot of sense etc.. Yet it works and is never scared to try something.

I remember when MIKE TOOK OVER. I remember even 3 years ago he used to change lines at times in games etc.. is just the last two years once he had his lines with cleary and abdelkader he seemed less than willing to mix it up etc.. even when we were being beaten down or losing etc..

That is the problem I have with Mike Babcock he stopped trying things he accepts mediocrity and is living on the past success and laurels and THIS IS DETROIT so therefore to me THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

He doesnt fear losing his job etc.. He has become complacent to me and makes him not the coach he was once.

Now that can all change this year we have a lot of combos can use etc.. Lot more options honestly than we have had in past couple years at least to me.

We will see how he uses this bounty of fruit so to speak. I do not have much hope though cause he already seems set in ways to put an abby on first line somehow get cleary on second line.

 

[Gerin]

Weiss - Datsyuk - Samuelsson/Cleary
Franzen - Zetterberg - Alfredsson
Tatar - Andersson - Nyquist
Miller - Helm - Eaves/Adbelkader/Tootoo

Kronwall - Ericsson
DeKeyser - Smith
Quincey - Kindl