Would You Put the Following Players on a Top 300 Players List?

[GlitchMarner]

If you were constructing your very own list of the top 300 players in NHL history (weighed more toward career than talent level but taking both into account), would the following players make the cut?

I don't expect too much deliberating here. I just want people to think about what type of a player they would probably have at the 500 position, and then to decide if each of these guys would be worthy of making the cut...

I'm interesting in creating a top 500 players of all-time list (or top 300 or so since 1967) and would like some input from the members of this board.

I browse the History of Hockey section of HFBoards daily. I enjoy reading the takes of the regulars here... some knowledgeable hockey fans for sure...


Here's the list of players to consider. Please say "yes," "no" or "maybe." If you would put the player in the top 400 but not top 300, please say so. If you'd place him in the top 500, please indicate that. If you wouldn't have him in the top 500, please say so. I'm concentrating on forwards for now.



Markus Naslund
Peter Bondra
Ziggy Palffy
Daniel Alfredsson
Saku Koivu
Alex Kovalev
Alexander Mogilny
Keith Tkachuk
John Leclair
Micheal Goulet
Glen Anderson
Dave Andreychuk
Wendel Clark
Bobby Smith
Neal Broten
Brian Bellows
Vincent Lecavalier
Martin St. Louis
Brad Richards
Marian Gaborik
Rick Nash
Jeff Carter
Mike Foligno
Toni Tanti
Doug Weight
Ryan Smyth
Vincent Damphousse
Jeremy Roenick
Bernie Nicholls
Bernie Federko
Scott Mellanby
Miroslav Satan
Chris Drury
Danny Briere
Scott Gomez
Martin Straka
Mike Ridley
Dany Heatley
Ilya Kovalchuk
Paul Kariya
Olli Jokinen




I'm going to assume the following are consensus top 300 players. If you think one isn't, please say so as well:


Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Pierre Turgeon
Mark Recchi
Mike Gartner
Darryl Sittler
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla
Joe Nieuwendyk

Click to read more...

 

[ImporterExporter]

If you were constructing your very own list of the top 300 players in NHL history (weighed more toward career than talent level but taking both into account), would the following players make the cut?

I don't expect too much deliberating here. I just want people to think about what type of a player they would probably have at the 500 position, and then to decide if each of these guys would be worthy of making the cut...

I'm interesting in creating a top 500 players of all-time list (or top 300 or so since 1967) and would like some input from the members of this board.

I browse the History of Hockey section of HFBoards daily. I enjoy reading the takes of the regulars here... some knowledgeable hockey fans for sure...


Here's the list of players to consider. Please say "yes," "no" or "maybe." If you would put the player in the top 400 but not top 300, please say so. If you'd place him in the top 500, please indicate that. If you wouldn't have him in the top 500, please say so. I'm concentrating on forwards for now.



Markus Naslund
Peter Bondra
Ziggy Palffy
Daniel Alfredsson
Saku Koivu
Alex Kovalev
Alexander Mogilny
Keith Tkachuk
John Leclair
Micheal Goulet
Glen Anderson
Dave Andreychuk
Wendel Clark
Bobby Smith
Neal Broten
Brian Bellows
Vincent Lecavalier
Martin St. Louis
Brad Richards
Marian Gaborik
Rick Nash
Jeff Carter
Mike Foligno
Toni Tanti
Doug Weight
Ryan Smyth
Vincent Damphousse
Jeremy Roenick
Bernie Nicholls
Bernie Federko
Scott Mellanby
Miroslav Satan
Chris Drury
Danny Briere
Scott Gomez
Martin Straka
Mike Ridley
Dany Heatley
Ilya Kovalchuk
Paul Kariya
Olli Jokinen




I'm going to assume the following are consensus top 300 players. If you think one isn't, please say so as well:


Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Pierre Turgeon
Mark Recchi
Mike Gartner
Darryl Sittler
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla
Joe Nieuwendyk

I bolded the ones I think are top 300.

 

[VanIslander]

Check out the ATD: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2194683

 

[crobro]

What about Denis Maruk

 

[MXD]

Import/Export's list is pretty good.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Import/Export's list is pretty good.

Can I have a link?

 

[GlitchMarner]

I bolded the ones I think are top 300.

Are you sure about Ziggy?

I think he's under-valued and under-appreciating, but I don't really see an argument for him over a few of the other options...

Mogilny was as talented (if not more) and had a better career.

Kovalev and Palffy would be about neck and neck, I'd think.

Damphousse and Roenick were centres who were good for a long time. Lecavalier was probably a top five player for a very short period. Richards was a tremendous playoff performer from 2004-2012 (eighth most playoff points during that span + Conn Smythe, Cup and two CF losses) and he finished in the top three in points three times in his career despite missing what would would have been a peak season due to a lockout.


Thank you for the input, though. I agree with the rest!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Can I have a link?

Look at the 2nd post of this thread.

I put in bold the players who are top 300 IMO. A guy like Martin St Louis is easily inside the top 200. Same thing with Kariya.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Look at the 2nd post of this thread.

I put in bold the players who are top 300 IMO. A guy like Martin St Louis is easily inside the top 200. Same thing with Kariya.

Oh, ok. I thought he meant you created your own list and posted it on the board at some point lol.


Yeah, your choices are good.

I agree about MSL, but did Kariya really have the longevity to deserve to be in the top 200? I'm thinking I'd slide him in in the 275-300 range or so.

 

[MXD]

Look at the 2nd post of this thread.

I put in bold the players who are top 300 IMO. A guy like Martin St Louis is easily inside the top 200. Same thing with Kariya.

I like that you went with obvious Top-300 players with your "bolds" actually : some of the non-bolded are very close calls who could go either way (Roenick comes to mind as such a case). I mean, I can name my Top-15 quite easily and be certain for maybe all of them, except maybe the 15th.

How the hell do I know if I'm ranking Roenick 282nd or 309th ?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes

Daniel Alfredsson
John Leclair
Micheal Goulet
Martin St. Louis
Jeremy Roenick
Ilya Kovalchuk
Paul Kariya

Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Mark Recchi
Darryl Sittler
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla

Maybe

Markus Naslund
Ziggy Palffy
Alexander Mogilny
Keith Tkachuk
Brad Richards
Bernie Nicholls
Bernie Federko
Dany Heatley

Joe Nieuwendyk
Pierre Turgeon

No

Peter Bondra
Saku Koivu
Alex Kovalev
Glen Anderson
Dave Andreychuk
Wendel Clark
Bobby Smith
Neal Broten
Brian Bellows
Vincent Lecavalier
Marian Gaborik
Rick Nash
Jeff Carter
Mike Foligno
Toni Tanti
Doug Weight
Ryan Smyth
Vincent Damphousse
Scott Mellanby
Miroslav Satan
Chris Drury
Danny Briere
Scott Gomez
Martin Straka
Mike Ridley
Olli Jokinen

Mike Gartner

 

[MXD]

Oh, ok. I thought he meant you created your own list and posted it on the board at some point lol.


Yeah, your choices are good.

I agree about MSL, but did Kariya really have the longevity to deserve to be in the top 200? I'm thinking I'd slide him in in the 275-300 range or so.

That seems like an odd question, but....
Would you put John Leclair in your Top-200?
If you do, why?
If you don't, what would prevent you to do so?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Oh, ok. I thought he meant you created your own list and posted it on the board at some point lol.


Yeah, your choices are good.

I agree about MSL, but did Kariya really have the longevity to deserve to be in the top 200? I'm thinking I'd slide him in in the 275-300 range or so.

Kariya was a 5 time postseason AS. Really solid scoring numbers is a career that was mostly played in a lower scoring era. Obviously doesn't have much in the way of postseason resume, but that's not really on him as much as it is on the teams he played for. He also had some really good showings during the World Championships (won a Best Forward award) and led a Canadien team to the Silver medal in the 94 Olympics, when they weren't expected to do well at all.

MSL is defnitely closer to 100 than Kariya, but I'd have Paul comfortably inside the top 200. Maybe like 160-175ish off the top of my head.

 

[VanIslander]

Take Turgeon off the consensus list.

He's more fitting on the list of bolded and unbolded (you think bolded, some of us not). He was consistently very good, never one of the greats.

Weight is not bolded but he was a great passer at a time with so many all-time great passers (Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Francis, Oates). I wouldn't include Weight because he didn't maintain the level long enough, just like Turgeon has great career totals but lacking great peak seasons). Neither Turgeon or Weight ought to be on any final list of all-time greats, unless it's a pretty large list; but, given you are NOT assembling an all-time list but a best modern player list (1967 onward), they might be worth mentioning.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Woah, woah, woah...

TDMM, you wouldn't even consider Mike Gartner for a top 300 list? At least the way you put him behind everyone else in the "no" group suggests that.

I think Gartner's actually starting to become a bit underrated as a goal scorer by the internet hockey community.

I always hear "compiler this," compiler that" about him, but the guy only played 19 seasons (as opposed well over 20 like, say, Andreychuk) and averaged more than 35 goals per season.

He played in a high-scoring era, I know, but still, that would probably translate to something like 28 goals per season, which I think is quite a good average for almost 20 years.


He had a peak that I think is underrated as well.

From '86-'87-'92-'93, he had the sixth most goals in the NHL, behind only Lemieux, Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille and LaFontaine. Two of those guys are considered all-time greats and two others are considered legitimately high-end goal scorers.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...=19921993&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=goals

He finished in the top ten for goals three times during that span as well and finished 11th once and 14th (tied) once, peaking at fifth in the NHL in his best goal scoring season.

I think it would be hard to not slot him in the 275-300 range at least.

 

[GlitchMarner]

That seems like an odd question, but....
Would you put John Leclair in your Top-200?
If you do, why?
If you don't, what would prevent you to do so?

Hmmm... yeah, I'd include him.

I think he was a dominant, distinguishable and elite winger during the early to middle dead puck era days.

Okay... sounds like Kariya. True.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Woah, woah, woah...

TDMM, you wouldn't even consider Mike Gartner for a top 300 list? At least the way you put him behind everyone else in the "no" group suggests that.

I think Gartner's actually starting to become a bit underrated as a goal scorer by the internet hockey community.

I always hear "compiler this," compiler that" about him, but the guy only played 19 seasons (as opposed well over 20 like, say, Andreychuk) and averaged more than 35 goals per season.

He played in a high-scoring era, I know, but still, that would probably translate to something like 28 goals per season, which I think is quite a good average for almost 20 years.


He had a peak that I think is underrated as well.

From '86-'87-'92-'93, he had the sixth most goals in the NHL, behind only Lemieux, Yzerman, Hull, Robitaille and LaFontaine. Two of those guys are considered all-time greats and two others are considered legitimately high-end goal scorers.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...=19921993&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=goals

He finished in the top ten for goals three times during that span as well and finished 11th once, peaking at fifth in the NHL in his best goal scoring season.

I think it would be hard to not slot him in the 275-300 range at least.

I don't think he's worse than the rest of my "no's;" he's probably better than most of them. I separated the players you thought were definites from the ones you thought were maybes when I listed my answer. I have Gartner as a decisive "no," because I think he was definitely weaker than any of the players I listed as "maybe."

 

[GlitchMarner]

I don't think he's worse than the rest of my "no's;" he's probably better than most of them. I separated the players you thought were definites from the ones you thought were maybes when I listed my answer. I have Gartner as a decisive "no," because I think he was definitely weaker than any of the players I listed as "maybe."

Ah, I see. That makes sense.

 

[HawkNut]

Goulet, Kariya and St. Louis are all arguably top 100, let alone 300.

 

[MXD]

Goulet, Kariya and St. Louis are all arguably top 100, let alone 300.

Run Goulet and Kariya's case, and you'll realize you'll probably miss room even before getting players that were better (like, Martin St Louis) than those two.

 

[Sentinel]

300:

markus naslund
peter bondra
ziggy palffy
daniel alfredsson
alex kovalev
alexander mogilny
john leclair
micheal goulet
glen anderson
vincent lecavalier
martin st. Louis
brad richards
marian gaborik
vincent damphousse
jeremy roenick
bernie nicholls
bernie federko
ilya kovalchuk
paul kariya
dale hawerchuk
mike modano
mats sundin
pierre turgeon
mark recchi
darryl sittler
joe thornton
jarome iginla
joe nieuwendyk

 

[GlitchMarner]

Goulet, Kariya and St. Louis are all arguably top 100, let alone 300.

There's no room in the top 100 for those three. They're top 200 at best.

Not necessarily in order... here's a list of the best players I can think of that anyone with credible knowledge of hockey would include...


1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull
7. Mikita
8. Jagr
9. Hasek
10. Lidstrom
11. Crosby
12. Maurice Richard
13. Morenz
14. Esposito
15. Joe Malone
16. Lalonde
17. Milt Schmidt
18. Syl Apps
19. Charlie Conacher
20. Shore
21. Cook
22. Max Bentley
23. Dit Clapper
24. Bill Cowley
25. Dickie Moore
26. Red Kelly
27. Turk Broda
28. "Busher" Jackson
29. Boucher
30. Nighbour
31. Elmer Lach
32. Cy Denneny
33. King Clancy
34. Toe Blake
35. Ken Dryden
36. Plante
37. Sawchuk
38. Brodeur
39. Glenn Hall
40. Lafleur
41. Robinson
42. Bobby Clarke
43. Ted Lindsay
44. Park
45. Geoffrion
46. Frank Mahovlich
47. Henri Richard
48. Bourque
49. Messier
50. Trottier
51. Bossy
52. Denis Potvin
53. Kurri
54. Coffey
55. Stastny
56. Patrick Roy
57. Chelios
58. Billy Smith
59. Brett Hull
60. Robitaille
61. Yzerman
62. Sakic
63. Pronger
64. Scott Stevens
65. Selanne
66. Ovechkin
67. Joe Primeau
68. Johnny Bower
69. Babe Dye
70. Serge Savard
71. Tony Esposito
72. Brian Leetch
73. Doug Bentley
74. Borje Salming
75. Joliat
76. Brimsek
77. Nels Stewart


Then I'd rather put guys like Forsberg, Fedorov, Gilbert Perreault, Ron Francis, Adam Oates, Patrick Kane (yes, he's better than the three guys you mentioned), Bure and some others in my top 100 than Kariya or Goulet. St. Louis has the best case of the three.

Kariya, Goulet and St. Louis would have to battle it out with the likes of Pierre Pilote, Ted Kennedy, Sittler, Joe Thornton, Denis Savard, Mike Modano, Jarome Iginla, Hawerchuk, Sundin, Lindros, Jean Ratelle, Norm Ullman, Alex Delvecchio and numerous others for their rankings on a top 100-200 list.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Thank you, Sentinel!

 

[seventieslord]

Yes

Daniel Alfredsson
John Leclair
Micheal Goulet
Martin St. Louis
Jeremy Roenick
Ilya Kovalchuk
Paul Kariya

Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Mark Recchi
Darryl Sittler
Joe Thornton
Jarome Iginla

Maybe

Markus Naslund
Ziggy Palffy
Alexander Mogilny
Keith Tkachuk
Brad Richards
Bernie Nicholls
Bernie Federko
Dany Heatley

Joe Nieuwendyk
Pierre Turgeon

No

Peter Bondra
Saku Koivu
Alex Kovalev
Glen Anderson
Dave Andreychuk
Wendel Clark
Bobby Smith
Neal Broten
Brian Bellows
Vincent Lecavalier
Marian Gaborik
Rick Nash
Jeff Carter
Mike Foligno
Toni Tanti
Doug Weight
Ryan Smyth
Vincent Damphousse
Scott Mellanby
Miroslav Satan
Chris Drury
Danny Briere
Scott Gomez
Martin Straka
Mike Ridley
Olli Jokinen

Mike Gartner

Richards, Federko and Heatley to no, Gartner and Anderson to maybe. Otherwise I completely agree.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Richards, Federko and Heatley to no, Gartner and Anderson to maybe. Otherwise I completely agree.

I can make a case for Richards...

He had the third most points among centres from 2001-2002 to 2005-2006...

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...mesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,gamesPlayed

This is despite the fact that the 2004 lockout happened RIGHT after his Conn Smythe win (ie when he was at his absolute peak). I think he would have had a very strong season if there had been a 2004-2005 season.


He ranked eighth in playoff points in the League from 2004-2012 and helped his teams get to the third round or further three times.


Then he had a second peak from 2009-2010 to 2010-2011, in which he finished fourth in points among centres during that cumulative period:

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...onFrom=20092010&seasonTo=20102011&sort=points



I think the guy would have had a good shot at being a HOF'er if the lockout hadn't cost him a prime season and if he had declined a little later than he did.


In any case, I'd take his career over Vinny's.