Worst Players to Score 500 Points and Best not to?

[GlitchMarner]

In a few years the answer to "worst" will be Sam Gagner.

Still has more talent than old Bradley Boyes, I'd say.

 

[The Panther]

For best player not to get 500 points I nominate Sid Abel and Pierre Pilote.

I didn't think we were counting defencemen. If so, it's gotta be Eddie Shore (along with Morenz, of course). Even Doug Harvey barely made it past 500.

 

[Hobnobs]

I didn't think we were counting defencemen. If so, it's gotta be Eddie Shore (along with Morenz, of course). Even Doug Harvey barely made it past 500.

Only reason I didnt mention those two is because they played fewer games per season so they had such a minimal chance to reach it anyway. Though Morenz were pretty damn close.

 

[Terry Yake]

anyone know the lowest season high total points for a player who had 500 career pts?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

anyone know the lowest season high total points for a player who had 500 career pts?

Here's my quick attempt to do this in Excel. I haven't learned how to do tables with the site's new design, so this will be poorly formatted. Assuming I set up the query correctly, there are 36 players who scored 500+ points and had a career high of under 60.

Player | Career total | Career High
Ron Stewart - 529 - 39
Eric Nesterenko - 574 - 40
Tim Horton - 518 - 40
Bob Gainey - 502 - 47
Darryl Sydor - 507 - 48
Matt Cullen - 689 - 49
Doug Harvey - 540 - 50
Bill Gadsby - 568 - 51
Ed Jovanovski - 500 - 51
Zdeno Chara - 604 - 52
Jere Lehtinen - 514 - 52
George Armstrong - 713 - 53
Mike Fisher - 585 - 53
Dick Duff - 572 - 53
Nick Libett - 505 - 53
Teppo Numminen - 637 - 54
Don Marshall - 589 - 54
Doug Bodger - 528 - 54
Eric Desjardins - 575 - 55
Kimmo Timonen - 571 - 55
Ross Lonsberry - 566 - 55
Bob Pulford - 643 - 56
Calle Johansson - 535 - 56
Guy Carbonneau - 663 - 57
Yanic Perreault - 516 - 57
Dave Ellett - 568 - 58
Martin Erat - 545 - 58
Glen Wesley - 537 - 58
Mathieu Schneider - 743 - 59
Ed Westfall - 625 - 59
Bryan Hextall - 622 - 59
Ron Sutter - 533 - 59
Tomas Holmstrom - 530 - 59
Brian Rafalski - 515 - 59
Bob Nystrom - 513 - 59
Joel Otto - 508 - 59

 

[Terry Yake]

awesome. thank you

i figured it would be someone who had a very long career, like ron stewart. and wow, i had no idea teppo numminen ended his career with over 600 pts

 

[VanIslander]

Radek Dvorak only once even reached the 20 goal mark, never hit the 40 assist mark and only scored 590 points because he played 1260 games as a marginal offensive player on nonplayoff teams.

He once had more than 50 in his 18 year career (67 pts), so he doesn't make the arbitrary 60-pt cutoff list above.

How about PPG average and playoff performances? Dvorak averaged under 40 points per season and has 7 playoff points over his 18 year career (only found offensive ice time on bad teams).

Dvorak would be at the top of both lists among players not renowned for defensive ability or other intangibles away from the puck.

 

[Hobnobs]

He once had more than 50 in his 18 year career (67 pts), so he doesn't make the arbitrary 60-pt cutoff list above.

How about PPG average and playoff performances? Dvorak averaged under 40 points per season and has 7 playoff points over his 18 year career (only found offensive ice time on bad teams).

Dvorak would be at the top of both lists among players not renowned for defensive ability or other intangibles away from the puck.

He still has extremely good speed. He is used primarily on the penalty kill, since he has developed very good PK skills. He has been known to be able to score some shorties.

The Rangers are talking to Radek Dvorak about a return engagement on Broadway as penalty killer and top-line understudy, according to Larry Brooks of the New York Post

Its also pretty dishonest rhetoric to say he scored 7 playoff points in 18 years. He scored 7 points in four playoffs including one where he played with a recovering broken hand. And you do realise that Erat NEVER had a 60 point season, right? There is a reason Dvorak stuck around for 18 years and why Erat is playing for Brno now

 

[VanIslander]

Its also pretty dishonest rhetoric to say he scored 7 playoff points in 18 years. He scored 7 points in four playoffs...

I KNOW you read what I wrote on the last page about Dvorak scoring 7 points in ONLY FOUR playoffs because 14 of the 18 years he played he was on nonplayoff teams. ALL this I have said not long ago, on this thread.

 

[MS]

Brad Boyes isn't great, but there's no way the worst player to score 500 points came in the 2000s and not the 1980s.

Petr Klima was mentioned earlier and to me he's a far better choice. Probably a worse all around player than Boyes and when you adjust for era topped out at 61 points as opposed to Boyes' seasons of 78 and 75 adjusted points including a season where he finished 5th in NHL goalscoring.

 

[Hobnobs]

Brad Boyes isn't great, but there's no way the worst player to score 500 points came in the 2000s and not the 1980s.

Petr Klima was mentioned earlier and to me he's a far better choice. Probably a worse all around player than Boyes and when you adjust for era topped out at 61 points as opposed to Boyes' seasons of 78 and 75 adjusted points including a season where he finished 5th in NHL goalscoring.

Klima is in the lower tier but he's better than Dan Quinn imo and Im pretty sure Klimas best 6-7 years is better than Boyes 6-7 years though Im up for be proven wrong on that one.

 

[BlueBull]

Kimmo Timmonen is The Worst to get 500 (Here come the salty Nashville and Philadelphia Fans)
The best Not to is Craig Hartsburg (Here come Every salty fan not from Minnesota)

 

[MS]

Klima is in the lower tier but he's better than Dan Quinn imo and Im pretty sure Klimas best 6-7 years is better than Boyes 6-7 years though Im up for be proven wrong on that one.

Leaving out adjusted points and just going by scoring finishes, here are the top 5 seasons for those 3 players in terms of where they finished in NHL scoring :

Brad Boyes
34 (including 5th in goals)
46
49
50
69

Petr Klima
50
73
80
102
107

Dan Quinn
13
23
35
54
80

Assuming all 3 bad defensive players were equally bad defensively, Klima is clearly the worst offensive player by a WIDE margin when looking at these 3 guys.

 

[VanIslander]

...going by scoring finishes, here are the top 5 seasons for those 3 players in terms of where they finished in NHL scoring :

Brad Boyes
34 (including 5th in goals)
46
49
50
69

Petr Klima
50
73
80
102
107

Dan Quinn
13
23
35
54
80

I was in high school and university when Petr Klima and Dan Quinn played and I thought - and I was FAR from alone - that Klima was very talented and Quinn overperforming given his linemates. Certainly, Klima was much more of a goal scorer than Quinn. That is not in doubt. The question is: How many of Quinn's assists do you give him a lot of credit for? His three best seasons in Pittsburgh are a joke to judge him by. After all, Oates made Chris Simon into a 29-goal scorer. If you don't "get" why I say that, you aren't dialed into Quinn's career.

Gawd, Quinn. What's next? Praise for Rob Brown?

 

[Hobnobs]

Leaving out adjusted points and just going by scoring finishes, here are the top 5 seasons for those 3 players in terms of where they finished in NHL scoring :

Brad Boyes
34 (including 5th in goals)
46
49
50
69

Petr Klima
50
73
80
102
107

Dan Quinn
13
23
35
54
80

Assuming all 3 bad defensive players were equally bad defensively, Klima is clearly the worst offensive player by a WIDE margin when looking at these 3 guys.

No, Dan Quinn is worst by a WIDE margin. Those finishes are quite underwhelming considering the players he played with when he scored those points. Boyes and Klima did play with greats as well (Yzerman and Bergeron/Backes). I do think we have found our worst player though. Dan Quinn is probably my final answer for worst 500 point scorer.

 

[MS]

I was in high school and university when Petr Klima and Dan Quinn played and I thought - and I was FAR from alone - that Klima was very talented and Quinn overperforming given his linemates. Certainly, Klima was much more of a goal scorer than Quinn. That is not in doubt. The question is: How many of Quinn's assists do you give him a lot of credit for? His three best seasons in Pittsburgh are a joke to judge him by. After all, Oates made Chris Simon into a 29-goal scorer. If you don't "get" why I say that, you aren't dialed into Quinn's career.

Gawd, Quinn. What's next? Praise for Rob Brown?

Quinn obviously had his numbers inflated by playing with Lemieux at times in Pittsburgh. Different people will value that differently.

I remember as a kid thinking Detroit-era Klima was awesome too - probably because he was the only young Czech forward in the NHL at that point and an interesting Eastern Block curiosity who played a flashy game - but the numbers don't stand up for him at all.

Again, it's not like these guys are 'kinda close'. Klima is way behind. I can get the argument for Quinn if you really rate the Lemieux effect highly, but there is really no argument that he was a better player than Boyes. He might have been more talented, but he didn't do more with it.

 

[MS]

No, Dan Quinn is worst by a WIDE margin. Those finishes are quite underwhelming considering the players he played with when he scored those points. Boyes and Klima did play with greats as well (Yzerman and Bergeron/Backes). I do think we have found our worst player though. Dan Quinn is probably my final answer for worst 500 point scorer.

Quinn didn't play with Lemieux at ES.

In Lemieux's 199-point season (which was Quinn's career year as well) Lemieux was playing with Rob Brown and Bob Errey pretty much all season while Quinn was centering the 2nd line with Randy Cunneyworth/Phil Bourque as his most common linemates.

They obviously played together on the PP, but Quinn wasn't a Rob Brown situation where he was joined at the hip with Lemieux in all situations. He was normally the #2 center behind Lemieux until he was usurped by John Cullen in 1989-1990.

I can accept him as a good candidate as the worst guy with 500 points, but we should have our facts straight on his usage.

 

[Hobnobs]

Quinn obviously had his numbers inflated by playing with Lemieux at times in Pittsburgh. Different people will value that differently.

I remember as a kid thinking Detroit-era Klima was awesome too - probably because he was the only young Czech forward in the NHL at that point and an interesting Eastern Block curiosity who played a flashy game - but the numbers don't stand up for him at all.

Again, it's not like these guys are 'kinda close'. Klima is way behind. I can get the argument for Quinn if you really rate the Lemieux effect highly, but there is really no argument that he was a better player than Boyes. He might have been more talented, but he didn't do more with it.

Quinns scoring line is so diminished without Lemieux its not even funny.

55
80
93
121
138
170

Its how to value those Pens years the trouble starts. I value his stats less than Klima and Boyes.

Quinn didn't play with Lemieux at ES.

In Lemieux's 199-point season (which was Quinn's career year as well) Lemieux was playing with Rob Brown and Bob Errey pretty much all season while Quinn was centering the 2nd line with Randy Cunneyworth/Phil Bourque as his most common linemates.

They obviously played together on the PP, but Quinn wasn't a Rob Brown situation where he was joined at the hip with Lemieux in all situations. He was normally the #2 center behind Lemieux until he was usurped by John Cullen in 1989-1990.

I can accept him as a good candidate as the worst guy with 500 points, but we should have our facts straight on his usage.

His numbers reflect that as well. 13th in scoring overall but "only" 51st at ES.

 

[MS]

Quinns scoring line is so diminished without Lemieux its not even funny.

55
80
93
121
138
170

Its how to value those Pens years the trouble starts. I value his stats less than Klima and Boyes.



His numbers reflect that as well. 13th in scoring overall but "only" 51st at ES.

51st is still exactly in line with Klima's best season, though. Both, to me, are very similar underachieving wastes of talent - although Quinn ended up in better situations for awhile and produced much better. Klima 'seems' much cooler from a nostalgia perspective as a flashy European defector with a funky helmet (who was never accused of rape) but their careers flushed out very similarly - basically no value by 1991, a few decent seasons with bad teams through the early 1990s, and both essentially done in the NHL by the premature age of 31. And I'd have both behind Boyes.

And I feel it needs to be mentioned again that the fact that Mario Lemieux scored 199 points with BOB ERREY as a constant ES linemate is absolutely astonishing. Imagine him with Kurri ...

 

[Charlestown Chiefs]

With all due respect to whoever nominated Libett, my guess is that they never saw him play. Night in and night out he was a solid worker, even when it seemed hardly any others around him were working. He was never a goal-scorer, though he did score some goals. Mainly he was a two-way grinder-type with some decent touch around the net when the situation presented itself.

 

[seventieslord]

Kimmo Timmonen is The Worst to get 500 (Here come the salty Nashville and Philadelphia Fans)
The best Not to is Craig Hartsburg (Here come Every salty fan not from Minnesota)

Yeah, there's no way the answer is a defenseman.

Quinn didn't play with Lemieux at ES.

In Lemieux's 199-point season (which was Quinn's career year as well) Lemieux was playing with Rob Brown and Bob Errey pretty much all season while Quinn was centering the 2nd line with Randy Cunneyworth/Phil Bourque as his most common linemates.

They obviously played together on the PP, but Quinn wasn't a Rob Brown situation where he was joined at the hip with Lemieux in all situations. He was normally the #2 center behind Lemieux until he was usurped by John Cullen in 1989-1990.

I can accept him as a good candidate as the worst guy with 500 points, but we should have our facts straight on his usage.

I was going to say pretty much this.

 

[GlitchMarner]

With all due respect to whoever nominated Libett, my guess is that they never saw him play. Night in and night out he was a solid worker, even when it seemed hardly any others around him were working. He was never a goal-scorer, though he did score some goals. Mainly he was a two-way grinder-type with some decent touch around the net when the situation presented itself.

Admittedly, I did not. I was born in the mid 80s, so he was before my time.

 

[GlitchMarner]

I believe part of the reason Boyes is such a popular candidate is that stylistically, he really didn't play like a major scorer. He was just this soft, average-sized guy who somehow had a high peak and then strung together a few decent seasons to compile 500+ points. Maybe I've forgotten exactly how he played in his prime; certainly I don't remember ever being impressed by a move that he made or by his physical play or the velocity or accuracy of his shot. Okay well... I do remember he threw this ONE big hit in a pre-season game once playing for TOR. He totally sent a guy flying. It was completely unexpected.

When I think of a guy like Dumont, I think of someone who was fairly nimble and who had good hands. Erat was fast and could handle the puck. Even Dvorak had some skills that were palpable at times. Obviously I'm not alone in being somewhat mystified Boyes scored 40+ goals in a season or by the fact that he scored 500+ career points.

 

[Soundgarden]

Kimmo Timmonen is The Worst to get 500 (Here come the salty Nashville and Philadelphia Fans)
The best Not to is Craig Hartsburg (Here come Every salty fan not from Minnesota)

Yeah, I don't think a defenseman who broke 50 points twice and 40 points almost ten times while being stellar defensively could ever be considered the worst player to hit 500.

 

[Hobnobs]

I believe part of the reason Boyes is such a popular candidate is that stylistically, he really didn't play like a major scorer. He was just this soft, average-sized guy who somehow had a high peak and then strung together a few decent seasons to compile 500+ points. Maybe I've forgotten exactly how he played in his prime; certainly I don't remember ever being impressed by a move that he made or by his physical play or the velocity or accuracy of his shot. Okay well... I do remember he threw this ONE big hit in a pre-season game once playing for TOR. He totally sent a guy flying. It was completely unexpected.

When I think of a guy like Dumont, I think of someone who was fairly nimble and who had good hands. Erat was fast and could handle the puck. Even Dvorak had some skills that were palpable at times. Obviously I'm not alone in being somewhat mystified Boyes scored 40+ goals in a season or by the fact that he scored 500+ career points.

Dumont mightve been nimble but he did score a lot vs bigger, bruising, clutching giants of defensemen than Boyes imo. From what I recall Boyes were pretty much invisible vs better teams. Do anyone have a stat on this?