Worst Market For the NHL?

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Bicycle Repairman

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Calgary and Edmonton. Despite having mature markets with adequate fanbases, there's little room for further growth. Both franchises will continue to struggle financially even in a best case-scenario new NHL.
 

Sotnos

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Mr.Hunter74 said:
Yes I still think Tampa doesn't have great fan support despite tehy were sold out for the playoffs. I dont think very many people went to there Stanley Cup parade.
Based on what? The growth in attendance 4 years running and mostly sellouts down the stretch of last year? Oh, I'm sorry, it's based on "only" 30,000 showing up for the parade. Yeah, who cares that their average attendance last year would sell out a lot of buildings in the NHL, what a sucky fanbase!

Rabid Ranger said:
You don't think the fact the Meadowlands is in the middle of nowhere is a big reason why attendance suffers?
Nobody ever cuts any slack to, say, Florida for having an arena in the middle of nowhere. I'd guess that most every team arena is something of a hassle to get to, why is it an excuse only for NJ? I drive over an hour each way to go to games, and I know people who drive 2-3 hours each way. If you really want to go, you go. I sympathize with bad traffic and hassle, and a different location might help, but in most places, people will come out for a winner regardless.
 

Hunter74

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According to the Hockey News February 17th issue 2004 had these percentages for attendances throughout the league.

Highes to lowes. Oh and a percentage on teh far right indicating if teh attendance went up or down compared to the previous season.

1. Colorado ---- 100%, 0%
1. Edmonton --- 100%, +9%
1. Minnesota ---100%, 0%
1. Detroit ------100%, 0%
1. Toronto ---- 100%, +1%
1. Vancouver - 100%, +2%
7. Dallas ------- 99%, -1%
7. Philadelphia -- 99%, 0%
7. NY Rangers -- 99%, 0%
10. LosAngeles - 98%, +2%
10. St Louis ---- 98%, +2%
12. Columbus --- 95%, -2%
12. Montreal ---- 95%, -1%
14. Ottawa ----- 94%, +5%
15. Calgary ----- 92%, +1%
15. Phoenix ----- 92%, +17%
17. San Jose ---- 89%, -10%
18. Anahiem ---- 87%, +11%
19. Tampa Bay -- 86%, +5%
20. Boston ------ 82%, 0%
21. Atlanta ------ 80%, +16%
21. Washington -- 80%, -6%
21. Buffalo ------ 80%, +15%
21. Florida ------- 80%, +3%
25. NY Islanders - 79%, -12%
26. New Jersey -- 76%, +2%
27. Nashville ---- 74%, -2%
28. Pittsburge --- 71%, -19%
29. Chicago ----- 66%, -6%
30. Carolina ----- 63%, -25%

these are just percentages at the 30 gameish mark of last season. Its just a percetnage of how full the arena was on average. There are still many factors to be taken into consideration like the arena capacity and what not so dont compltley base everything off these numbers.
 

thinkwild

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Those attendance figures overall seem better than basketballs.

I think every owner knew what he was doing when he chose those markets. The markets are there for exploiting. Even Carolina. Ottawa, Edm, Cal, Vanc, dont like losers much either. Winning is what its all about.

Tampa Bay should be contracted because of the size of their parade, oh man that was funny. You'd figure the champs would get a bit of respect. At least acknowledge the new way its done. How can a poor team like Tampa Bay get a cup instead of Colorado with all its big stars. Tampa Bay will never be able to afford that so the system is unfair?
 

John Flyers Fan

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Rabid Ranger said:
You don't think the fact the Meadowlands is in the middle of nowhere is a big reason why attendance suffers?

Not that much, and even though it's a bit in the middle of nowhere it's also easily accessible. Right of the NJ Turnpike, only the most travelled road in America.

If people want to go to the games, they'll go. I used to live 15 minutes from the Wachovia Center, moved two years ago and I'm now a solid hour on a good day. I wouldn't think for a minute about giving up my tickets.

The key is the fact that the Devils have been great for a deacde. What happens if/when the devils become mediocre or bad at some point. It'll be a ghost town.
 

HughJass*

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Wow, this topic could have went south but I guess everyone kept a level head this time. I'm still seeing alot of ignorant statements by people who don't live in those regions, but oh well.

Also, let me defend my team for a sec:

1. Hartford/Carolina was, and always will be a Mickey Mouse organization. The day they get it right will be the day I eat my own ass.
2. Attendance was brutal for two factors: telecommunications market being hit hard (layoffs to the biggest backbone of this market) and the team playing sucktastic (loser) hockey.
3. Far from some of your silly notions on how life is in the market, I swear to you there are many transplants from other regions living in the Triangle.....I swear! LOL
4. Also far from some of your silly notions on how life is in the Southern markets: we aren't a bunch of gun-toting, tobacco chewing, NASCAR loving, Jeff Foxworthy praising, toothpick swallowing, cousin bumping, uneductated bunch of hicks. Stop watching the crap on tv.

The only reason we have hockey in Carolina is a stroke of luck anyway. Karmanos, Sr. knew about the market through dealings wih Compuware and his son (the Canes VP and also has a position in Compuware) played minor league hockey here. They were scoping the joint out as soon as they bought the Whalers? I need to find that out, because I never really cared to find out...
 
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Zetterberg4Captain*

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Easily the Carolina Hurricanes. Horrible team, horrible fans, and horrible location.
 

mr gib

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tgallant said:
There has been a lot of discussion about contraction on these boards because of the lockout situation... This poll is not meant to discuss the pros and cons of contraction so please do not get into that debate here...

My question is, IF the NHL did vote to contract only 1 team, what NHL team do you feel is in the worst "hockey market"?
well you know - i wouldn't even want to say because each team has had their moment of greatness
a tribute to the game and the players - seeing attendance figures - corporate or not - bettman has done some good there - i just wanted to say that there was a time in vancouver we couldn't get 8000 - i love all you guys - such great fans - lets pray they don't blow off the year -
 

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tgallant said:
My list does not necessarily reflect my own personal beliefs... Look at my message history on issues related to the viability of Columbus as a hockey market and you will see that although i initially thought Columbus would flop, that I truly think they have an excellent market now...

My list was compiled based off of opinions that I've heard around these boards... I've heard several people mention both Columbus and Nashville as non-hockey markets so that is why they are on this list... I don't agree with it (particularly Columbus) and the proof is in the pudding... They are barely getting any votes...

To be fair, half of the boards are made up of Canadians that probably couldn't find Columbus or Nashville on a map. That's not really a jab, I probably couldn't find Moose Jaw or some other city with a funky name.
 

mr gib

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Sir Ozzie X said:
To be fair, half of the boards are made up of Canadians that probably couldn't find Columbus or Nashville on a map. That's not really a jab, I probably couldn't find Moose Jaw or some other city with a funky name.
you forget - we are hockey fans - ( country music too )
 

jacketracket*

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I begrudgingly accept the rationale behind putting Columbus on this list.

But take a look at the attendance figures. We've done everything possible, short of actually putting on skates and taking the ice in an attempt to breath some life into a team that fails to show up half the time.

17,600 a night, over 4 years, to watch last-place hockey. 2 of every 3 games played at Nationwide are played in front of a sold-out crowd.

This market is one of the better-kept secrets in the league, and it will probably remain that way until the team starts to win.
 

mr gib

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jacketracket said:
I begrudgingly accept the rationale behind putting Columbus on this list.

But take a look at the attendance figures. We've done everything possible, short of actually putting on skates and taking the ice in an attempt to breath some life into a team that fails to show up half the time.

17,600 a night, over 4 years, to watch last-place hockey. 2 of every 3 games played at Nationwide are played in front of a sold-out crowd.

This market is one of the better-kept secrets in the league, and it will probably remain that way until the team starts to win.
i like you guys - nash is awesome - we like sanderson here in vancouver - i understand he will be going back to you -
 

jacketracket*

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mr gib said:
i like you guys - nash is awesome - we like sanderson here in vancouver - i understand he will be going back to you -
Nash and Zherdev....:D

Sanderson is an original CBJer, and one of the most popular players on the team. Gald he's coming back, although I know he wanted to stay in Vancouver.
 

thinkwild

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Jackets look to be another fantastic expansion success story and a perfect NHL market. Do you suspect the problem facing the Jackets is that they arent signing enough UFAs. That they need more money to spend? I dont think so. It takes time.
 

X0ssbar

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thinkwild said:
Jackets look to be another fantastic expansion success story and a perfect NHL market. Do you suspect the problem facing the Jackets is that they arent signing enough UFAs. That they need more money to spend? I dont think so. It takes time.

Your right - it takes time. I like the direction we are heading - building through the draft is key for us. I look at the way Ottawa has built their team over the years - mostly through the draft - and I hope we continue to follow their lead.

Columbus has found some great early success and a lot of this early success has to do with the investments that Nationwide, the city of Columbus and team owner (John H McConnell) have made in this franchise. A lot of the initial success is also due to a revitilization project of downtown (www.arena-district.com) - the people who run this team just flat out made it fun to go to a game - regardles of who won. Heck ESPN even voted Nationwide the #1 stadium experience in the 4 majors for whatever that's worth. But as people started to attend they started to learn the game and become loyal fans. As soon as this team starts winning I think this fan base is going to explode. Rick Nash has also given this team an identity both locally and in national hockey circles. He has started to become kind of like a cult sports hero in C-bus. Zherdev also has people jumping out of their seats - the future looks good.

For now, its a great start for a new market and I hope this lockout doesn't kill the momentum this franchise has worked so hard to build.
 

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WHurricane16 said:
Wow, this topic could have went south but I guess everyone kept a level head this time. I'm still seeing alot of ignorant statements by people who don't live in those regions, but oh well.

Also, let me defend my team for a sec:

1. Hartford/Carolina was, and always will be a Mickey Mouse organization. The day they get it right will be the day I eat my own ass.
2. Attendance was brutal for two factors: telecommunications market being hit hard (layoffs to the biggest backbone of this market) and the team playing sucktastic (loser) hockey.
3. Far from some of your silly notions on how life is in the market, I swear to you there are many transplants from other regions living in the Triangle.....I swear! LOL
4. Also far from some of your silly notions on how life is in the Southern markets: we aren't a bunch of gun-toting, tobacco chewing, NASCAR loving, Jeff Foxworthy praising, toothpick swallowing, cousin bumping, uneductated bunch of hicks. Stop watching the crap on tv.

The only reason we have hockey in Carolina is a stroke of luck anyway. Karmanos, Sr. knew about the market through dealings wih Compuware and his son (the Canes VP and also has a position in Compuware) played minor league hockey here. They were scoping the joint out as soon as they bought the Whalers? I need to find that out, because I never really cared to find out...
Karmanos was looking at Minnesota before hand and didn't get a deal he liked.
 

I am Jack's Fish

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Sotnos said:
Nobody ever cuts any slack to, say, Florida for having an arena in the middle of nowhere. .

I am going to qualify by stating that I have no love for the Florida Panthers, and don't wish any success on them.

But I will refute the claim that the ODC is in the middle of nowhere. It is in the heart of where the families in Broward county live, not downtown or in a low rent business district, but smack dab located in a prime suburban area with good access to the tri-county area.

With that being said, I think this market is one of the worst for NHL hockey.
 

Johnnybegood13

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Bicycle Repairman said:
Calgary and Edmonton. Despite having mature markets with adequate fanbases, there's little room for further growth. Both franchises will continue to struggle financially even in a best case-scenario new NHL.
What exactly do you mean by further growth? (more money for the the players?)
I hate to get personal and without fear of being banned from these forums it's safe to say your a total "nitwit"..how in hell can you say two of the most hockey crazy citys in Canada don't belong in the NHL?? Edmonton is pushing 800k and Calgary is pushing close to a mil in population,both citys are growing faster than any other major city in Canada and most people in these two citys absoluty love the game and support their teams as good or better than any other team in the league. Calgary this past spring proved without a dought that success in the playoffs can not only bring a city alive but bring hope for other "so called smalled markets" in the whole league.

That Sir was a very Pejorative Slured comment for you to make :shakehead :shakehead :shakehead
 

Kravitch

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T@T said:
What exactly do you mean by further growth? (more money for the the players?)
I hate to get personal and without fear of being banned from these forums it's safe to say your a total "nitwit"..how in hell can you say two of the most hockey crazy citys in Canada don't belong in the NHL?? Edmonton is pushing 800k and Calgary is pushing close to a mil in population,both citys are growing faster than any other major city in Canada and most people in these two citys absoluty love the game and support their teams as good or better than any other team in the league. Calgary this past spring proved without a dought that success in the playoffs can not only bring a city alive but bring hope for other "so called smalled markets" in the whole league.

That Sir was a very Pejorative Slured comment for you to make :shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

Apperantly if a team is located in a Canadian city most Americans couldnt point out an a map, they don't belong in the NHL (Edmonton, Clagary, Ottawa).

I would like too see how many Tampa fans knew Calgary was even in Canada before the finals started.

(Ok, that was a cruel jab. But I have heard of various fans who didn't even know Calgary was in Canada according to I believe, The Globe and Mail.)


What really pisses me off is the the NHL has always talked about expansion in Kansas and Houston, two terrible markets and ignoring a deserving city like Winnipeg. Dispite Winnipeg has a brand spanking new arena that is fully capable of renovations.

People say southern US fans get treated like dirt. Well, Canadian fans don't get treated much better nowadays.
 
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FacelessButcher

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Kravitch said:
Apperantly if a team is located in a Canadian city most Americans couldnt point out an a map, they don't belong in the NHL (Edmonton, Clagary, Ottawa).

I would like too see how many Tampa fans knew Calgary was even in Canada before the finals started.

(Ok, that was a cruel jab. But I have heard of various fans who didn't even know Calgary was in Canada according to I believe, The Globe and Mail.)


What really pisses me off is the the NHL has always talked about expansion in Kansas and Houston, two terrible markets and ignoring a deserving city like Winnipeg. Dispite Winnipeg has a brand spanking new arena that is fully capable of renovations.

People say southern US fans get treated like dirt. Well, Canadian fans don't get treated much better nowadays.
I've seen Bicycle Repairman post numerous times on the Flames and Oiler boards and I am pretty sure he's a Flames fan so your American bashing is probably unwarranted. I don't think his argument had anything to do with us not deserving a team just the financial aspect, fact of the matter is almost every year both teams are net money losers. Edmonton + Calgary both have great die-hard fan bases and sell out very often, the question is does either team have a large enough fan base/population to absorb a hike in ticket prices to a level where it might actually be profitable for the owners (heaven forbid) without a significant drop in attendance figures, personally I have my doubts. Oiler brass have gone on the record saying without significant altercations to the CBA the team is not economically viable in our market and Calgary has incurred similair losses so if we go they should not be to far behind, their owners do have deeper pockets then Edmonton's but generousity usually does have its limits.

I think people should look back at the question often these debates turn into who does and doesn't deserve a team or who has better fans, but the question is who is the worst market in the NHL? Edmonton and Calgary's miny population booms do put a bright spot on their future viability but cities with significantly higher populations such as Anaheim and Florida definitely have higher profit potential provided you can get enough hockey converts, whereas Edmonton + Calgary pretty much are fully saturated markets with only small ebs and flows in popularity.
 
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HughJass*

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ofhdhdy said:
Easily the Carolina Hurricanes. Horrible team, horrible fans, and horrible location.

Finally, a flame. Thanks, buddy for ruining the thread.
 

Sotnos

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Kravitch said:
Apperantly if a team is located in a Canadian city most Americans couldnt point out an a map, they don't belong in the NHL (Edmonton, Clagary, Ottawa).

I would like too see how many Tampa fans knew Calgary was even in Canada before the finals started.
Yeah, we're all stupid down here buddy. Keep it up. :shakehead

People say southern US fans get treated like dirt.
We certainly do on this fricken' board. Case in point, your post.
 

Papadice

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Kravitch said:
What really pisses me off is the the NHL has always talked about expansion in Kansas and Houston, two terrible markets and ignoring a deserving city like Winnipeg. Dispite Winnipeg has a brand spanking new arena that is fully capable of renovations.
As much as I'd LOVE to see NHL hockey back in Winnipeg, I can't see it happening unless the new economic structure of the NHL is VASTLY different from the current one... Winnipeg financially isn't a viable option for the NHL without drastic changes... Which is extremely said, because man, what a great hockey market...

As for the new arena, if I've heard correctly, isn't it only a 15,000 seat arena? Far from NHL ready... It would need a lot of work to get it up to par...
 
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