GDT: World Juniors

Cardiac Jerks

Asinine & immoral
Jan 13, 2006
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When is the cutoff date? He'll be 19 when the season starts but 20 like a week later. Those rules confuse the hell out of me.

They have to turn 20 by December 31 of that season. Gauthier was born in October 97 so he will be eligible in both regards.

The other way to be eligible is to have completed four seasons in major junior which he has also done.
 

Joe McGrath

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Oct 29, 2009
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They have to turn 20 by December 31 of that season. Gauthier was born in October 97 so he will be eligible in both regards.

The other way to be eligible is to have completed four seasons in major junior which he has also done.

Thanks for the info. It seems so arbitrary. Why wouldn't they just line up the dates with draft eligibility to make it easier to figure out for morons like me?
 

Joe McGrath

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I have to say, I came away from this tournament a LOT more impressed with Roy than I have been in my past, albeit limited, viewings. His skating looked much better, his hands were better than I recalled and he played with aggression and urgency. Really liked what I saw from him, even more-so than Gauthier. I know in the past I've hated to write off prospects so early, but man, based on what I saw in this tournament, I can't imagine how Bean was touted as highly as he was. I had never seen him play 1 second before he was drafted so could only go on what was written/how he was ranked. He was like Ryan Murphy with less confidence, if that's possible. I think the Canes are going to regret this pick almost as much as taking Fleury over Ehlers. Hope I'm wrong, but he looks to be a LONG way off from ever stepping foot in the NHL.

While the jury is surely still out, the first round picks under Francis aren't looking very great right now. IIRC, Lindholm was his guy in 2013. Fleury over Ehlers/Nylander in 2014. Hanifin was kind of a no brainer in 2015 (although it remains to be seen if he'll be better than Provorov or Werenski). Bean in 2016. Not jumping off a bridge by any means here as the final judgement won't be until we see these guys in the NHL for a couple of years, but early returns aren't great.

Thing to remember with Bean is that he's still incredibly young. He, Fabbro, and Claugue were all on the young side, younger than most guys who aren't going in the top 5 of the draft (Ekblad, Murray, etc.)

He will take time, but the shine certainly has come off a bit.
 

GoldiFox

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Look at this crap article sports net has up today: "Nicolas Roy’s 3rd-period heroics erased by dreaded shootout" is the title.

Figured stuff like that was coming. Everybody glaze over the fact that Barzal looked like a trash heap the whole game and Strome/Jost/Cirelli were just as pitiful in the shoot out.

Most unfortunate part is that Roy had Parsons beat, just couldn't get it to his backhand. It's not like he left the puck at center ice.
 

NotOpie

"Puck don't lie"
Jun 12, 2006
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I have to say, I came away from this tournament a LOT more impressed with Roy than I have been in my past, albeit limited, viewings. His skating looked much better, his hands were better than I recalled and he played with aggression and urgency. Really liked what I saw from him, even more-so than Gauthier. I know in the past I've hated to write off prospects so early, but man, based on what I saw in this tournament, I can't imagine how Bean was touted as highly as he was. I had never seen him play 1 second before he was drafted so could only go on what was written/how he was ranked. He was like Ryan Murphy with less confidence, if that's possible. I think the Canes are going to regret this pick almost as much as taking Fleury over Ehlers. Hope I'm wrong, but he looks to be a LONG way off from ever stepping foot in the NHL.

While the jury is surely still out, the first round picks under Francis aren't looking very great right now. IIRC, Lindholm was his guy in 2013. Fleury over Ehlers/Nylander in 2014. Hanifin was kind of a no brainer in 2015 (although it remains to be seen if he'll be better than Provorov or Werenski). Bean in 2016. Not jumping off a bridge by any means here as the final judgement won't be until we see these guys in the NHL for a couple of years, but early returns aren't great.

BBA, I think you're right...it's still too early to tell. I believe the toss up that was the choice between Lindholm and Monahan probably felt like a win/win. I'm not entirely sure that Lindholm won't pan out to be a very good player in the long run. The key issue, for me, was Jim Rutherford's insistence on throwing him into the lineup as an 18 year old, seeing him injure his shoulder, and have him smothered by the 1-2 punch of wasted development/playing through injury...all in his first North American professional year. The right play, in my opinion, would have been sending him back for a full year in Sweden while encouraging him to build strength.

The Fleury pick, in hindsight, could be viewed as a fail, but, again, I think it's way too early to tell. The kid has all the tools but got derailed by injury this season. Hence the slow start. Plus, this team needed significant upgrades on the back end. We literally had next to no depth across the board and from a development perspective, building from the goal out is a sound philosophy. Add to this that perhaps we are spoiled by the rare occasion of defenders developing ahead of schedule. Give Fleury his year or two in the A and I believe he will prove to be a very good pick....or valuable trade bait as the case may be. While Nylander, Ehlers. Larkin, and Fabbri have taken off in the NHL, it is indeed difficult to watch a slower development progression for Fleury. Who knows, the pick might just suck in the end. But right now, I think it is much fairer to say the jury remains out.

By the way, I was of the opinion that we should have traded the #5 in 2015 to drop down a few slots. My thought was that if we wanted blueline help (and I think we would have focused on that regardless), we could have dropped 2,3, or 4 slots and picked up one of Provorov or Werenski while garnering an additional 2nd rounder. But it takes two to tango....again, 20/20 hindsight is a gem.
 

A Star is Burns

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I still have a hard time coming away from this tournament with much of anything. It's just too dangerous to make too many conclusions based on a short tournament with a bunch of guys who haven't played much together. History is littered with tons of guys that looked great and didn't pan out and looked awful and did well in the long run. Just the nature of the beast. It's a fun tournament, but way too overrated both good and bad by people.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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Yep, as I said, jury is still out, but right now, it's not looking great. I agree with you on Lindholm though, not leaving him in Sweden was a mistake and we all knew it at the time. He's getting better though, just not scoring. On the flipside, the "early returns beyond the 1st pick in the draft looks promising.

Pesce (2013)
Aho, Booth, Roy (2015)
Gauthier, Kuokkanen (2016)
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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I still have a hard time coming away from this tournament with much of anything. It's just too dangerous to make too many conclusions based on a short tournament with a bunch of guys who haven't played much together. History is littered with tons of guys that looked great and didn't pan out and looked awful and did well in the long run. Just the nature of the beast. It's a fun tournament, but way too overrated both good and bad by people.

Yeah, but re: Bean, it's not just this tournament. The only other time I have seen any of him was training camp, and there he looked pretty bad to me as well (granted, limited viewing). So even though this tournament is my largest sample of viewing him, it's re-enforced what I saw earlier.

That said, Joe makes a good point about his age. Also, he is very scrawny and needs to get bigger and stronger and that may make a huge difference in situations like this.
 

Cardiac Jerks

Asinine & immoral
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So are giving up on Bean after a 6 game stretch?

I don't think anyone is actually saying that, just that they have not been impressed by what they've seen of him albeit a small sample size. Many of us didn't understand the pick and haven't seen anything to make us feel otherwise.

I, personally, will wait and see but those are my feelings. I don't see what they evidently see but they're the professionals.
 

Penaltykiller17

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Apr 21, 2015
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I don't think anyone is actually saying that, just that they have not been impressed by what they've seen of him albeit a small sample size. Many of us didn't understand the pick and haven't seen anything to make us feel otherwise.

I, personally, will wait and see but those are my feelings. I don't see what they evidently see but they're the professionals.

I understand, but this thread kinda reads like a typical thread in the prospect board, of knee-jerk reactions (a little bit). I haven't seen any of the games, so I'll take the word of the group that says he hasn't looked good, but he had a fantastic draft season, then was hampered by a significant hand injury, just started playing again a few weeks ago, and put up decent numbers prior to the WJC. I don't think it's the end of the world, because I remember being underwhelmed by Eichel and Hanifin's performances in the tournament during their draft year.

For the record, I was one of the many on board for Bellows, or drafting Gauthier and trading the 21st pick for one of the big name goalies (Bishop/Fleury/Andersen).
 

Penaltykiller17

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So we aren't allowed to have a constructive discussion where we criticize a prospect based on the play we've seen without being accused of "giving up on him"? :shakehead

No BBA, it's not allowed lol.

Its just that I've been reading comments like he's hot garbage, Ryan Murphy 2.0, trade value's not too high, and GMRF's 1st rounders haven't looked good despite not ever playing a NHL game yet.
 
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MinJaBen

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So are giving up on Bean after a 6 game stretch?

I have a different opinion than most based on what I saw of Bean. I think the kid is going to be very good. He had a better tournament than I think most are giving him credit for. He did have some glaring mistakes, but they are correctable. He has a ton of tools, is still very young, and was probably at a very different point in his season than the rest of the guys in the tournament due to his injury. He still needs time to develop, but fortunately, we have that to give to him due to our suddenly strong prospect pool at his position. I think he has a lot more potential upside than Fleury...and a higher floor as well.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Its just that I've been reading comments like he's hot garbage, Ryan Murphy 2.0, trade value's not too high, and GMRF's 1st rounders haven't looked good despite not ever playing a NHL game yet.

That doesn't mean we are "giving up" on players, we are just discussing their current level of play, projections, status of prospects vs. their peers drafted in a similar spot, etc.. HF stands for Hockey's Future so we are doing just that, talking about the future.

EDIT: and in my posts, I clearly said:

"While the jury is surely still out" and "Not jumping off a bridge by any means here as the final judgement won't be until we see these guys in the NHL for a couple of years"

That clearly means I'm not giving up on them and clearly acknowledges that we won't know for sure until they are in the NHL, so not really sure where you are getting the "giving up on him" from.
 
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A Star is Burns

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I have a different opinion than most based on what I saw of Bean. I think the kid is going to be very good. He had a better tournament than I think most are giving him credit for. He did have some glaring mistakes, but they are correctable. He has a ton of tools, is still very young, and was probably at a very different point in his season than the rest of the guys in the tournament due to his injury. He still needs time to develop, but fortunately, we have that to give to him due to our suddenly strong prospect pool at his position. I think he has a lot more potential upside than Fleury...and a higher floor as well.

I actually agree with this. He wasn't at his best defensively, but he's still developing in that respect and I've been saying that being injured most of the year probably doesn't help him. I also agree that he looked better offensively than he got credit for just based on his production. There were a number of times that he showed some slick moves, a nice shot, and his breakout passes were quite good a lot of times. There were a couple of times I saw him send guys on breakaways that weren't cashed in on, or where he set up nice rushes that didn't end in anything. He does have a long way to go, but I still think he has a very promising future. People may not be giving up on him, but I agree that he was a far way away from trash, Murphy 2.0, a pick we'll regret, etc.
 

Penaltykiller17

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That doesn't mean we are "giving up" on players, we are just discussing their current level of play, projections, status of prospects vs. their peers drafted in a similar spot, etc.. HF stands for Hockey's Future so we are doing just that, talking about the future.

EDIT: and in my posts, I clearly said:

"While the jury is surely still out" and "Not jumping off a bridge by any means here as the final judgement won't be until we see these guys in the NHL for a couple of years"

That clearly means I'm not giving up on them and clearly acknowledges that we won't know for sure until they are in the NHL, so not really sure where you are getting the "giving up on him" from.

I hear what you're saying, and don't disagree necessarily with you. And I wasn't bagging on you in particular, I was talking about the general flow of conversation about Bean in this thread.
 

Roboturner913

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Jul 3, 2012
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Look at this crap article sports net has up today: "Nicolas Roy’s 3rd-period heroics erased by dreaded shootout" is the title.

What a bunch of crap. Again, at least he tried an actual goal-scoring move. Everybody else was content to play it safe and take a wrister out from a distance.

I really like that he had the survival of his team on his stick and decided to take a chance. Shows a lot of confidence.
 

geehaad

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and in my posts, I clearly said:

"While the jury is surely still out" and "Not jumping off a bridge by any means here as the final judgement won't be until we see these guys in the NHL for a couple of years"

Yeah, after saying this:

based on what I saw in this tournament, I can't imagine how Bean was touted as highly as he was. He was like Ryan Murphy with less confidence, if that's possible. I think the Canes are going to regret this pick almost as much as taking Fleury over Ehlers.

So, criticism founded? Yeah, probably.
 

geehaad

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Bean getting like no playing time in OT because he sucks

He was out there every shift that Roy and Gauthier were, plus at least one. OT was the only thing I watched, and I specifically watched Bean because of the comments about him in this forum. I have to say, as I have often in the past: I really don't think the better half of the people in these threads know how to evaluate defensemen. Not saying I do, but I'm saying there's a ton of confirmation bias that happens here, including this comment (which was patently false).

I have a different opinion than most based on what I saw of Bean. I think the kid is going to be very good. He had a better tournament than I think most are giving him credit for.

Watching the OT, the announcer said very plainly that Bean had a great tournament so far. Not saying that the guy wasn't full of crap in his assessment, but should I trust him or you knuckleheads? I'm leaning toward a guy from Canada who announces hockey games, sorry guys.
 

denominator

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The key to understanding Bean's game is that he is an offensive-defenceman. There are so few of those in today's NHL as most defencemen that are offensively minded are labelled as two-way defencemen or puck-moving defencemen.

Bean is not great at stopping the rush, or at winning battles in his own end. He tends to hedge his bets by forcing an attacking player towards his partner or putting himself in a good position to get support. I noticed in the tournament this year, most of his turnovers down low in his own end were because he wasn't getting the support he expected/needed from Juulsen, or his centre (Barzal was the worst at low support).

Further, he's in an awkward transition period right now with the Hitmen, where last season he was in a support/growth position on the team (spent most of the season paired with Sanheim, wasn't expected to be shutting down the other teams' top lines); this season he is expected to be both the number one shut-down guy and the engine that runs the team's offense. He should have been able to settle into that role already, but he missed most of the season with an injury. This applies to the WJC, where due to the higher level of talent, he's in a similar role even on the second pairing. I saw him make a bunch of little mistakes that he was making at the beginning of last season, that he should be able to work past.

His upside is huge. He made two exceptional 3-line passes from his own corner to the opposition blueline for breakaways/partial breakaways, and he has one of the best wrist shots I've seen at this level. He is a very fluid skater and puts himself in good position to make a play most of the time (watch him in the offensive zone when he doesn't have the puck - he's always moving and anticipating). I don't think Canada had an effective partner option for him in this tournament, but I could see Haydn Fleury being a good fit.

I understand why most people are low on Bean right now, and even as a Hitmen fan I think he was drafted too high. But I do think he has tremendous upside and should make the Canes in a few years.
 

GoldiFox

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He was out there every shift that Roy and Gauthier were, plus at least one. OT was the only thing I watched, and I specifically watched Bean because of the comments about him in this forum. I have to say, as I have often in the past: I really don't think the better half of the people in these threads know how to evaluate defensemen. Not saying I do, but I'm saying there's a ton of confirmation bias that happens here, including this comment (which was patently false).



Watching the OT, the announcer said very plainly that Bean had a great tournament so far. Not saying that the guy wasn't full of crap in his assessment, but should I trust him or you knuckleheads? I'm leaning toward a guy from Canada who announces hockey games, sorry guys.

I watched most of Canada's tournament, Bean was awful. Disaster in the defensive zone and in transition. Overall ineffective offensively as a staple on the 2nd PP unit. I had a good chuckle when the announcer said Bean had been having a great tournament.

I had high hopes for him as he has been playing well recently in the WHL... But I can't see anyone watching his constant turnovers, bad pinches, and easily telegraphed shots and say "great tournament".
 

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