Wootlief Chat On ESPN.com Tues.

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Dr_Chimera*

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Flames Draft Watcher said:
Huh? He took a shot at a magazine that doesn't do any scouting. All their info is 2nd hand. It's not like he took a shot at ISS or a real independant scouting agency.

THN is not a scouting agency. That should be pretty clear to everyone based on the product which is far, far inferior to the real draft guides like McKeens, ISS, Redline.

Another Woodlief apologist. THN is professional even with all of its faults. And it gets quotes from real scouts, not self-professed ones like Woodlief.
 

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Alfredo_Garcia said:
Another Woodlief apologist. THN is professional even with all of its faults. And it gets quotes from real scouts, not self-professed ones like Woodlief.

Whatever. You think THN is professional. Great.

If you read both Redline's Draft Guide and THN's Draft preview it would be obvious to anyone which one has more meat, more info. They just do not compare. That's the bottom line.

If you don't like that he takes shots at an inferior publication so be it. But the Hockey News draft preview is literally a joke compared to the real draft guides. Are you trying to dispute that?
 

Dr_Chimera*

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Whatever. You think THN is professional. Great.

If you read both Redline's Draft Guide and THN's Draft preview it would be obvious to anyone which one has more meat, more info. They just do not compare. That's the bottom line.

If you don't like that he takes shots at an inferior publication so be it. But the Hockey News draft preview is literally a joke compared to the real draft guides. Are you trying to dispute that?

That's irrelevant (although THN does stand up for a single issue quite well).

What's relevant is that the joke is Woodlief.

And if you think that Redline is more respected than THN, you're on another planet.
 

Duff88

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DanielBriere48 said:
It's gonna take 10-20 minutes...I asked my question at 12:50 and didn't get answered until 1:16

He answered my question as soon as I posted it. (In flash chat, as soon as I clicked submit, my question was on the screen to be the next answered) :dunno:
 

Slats432

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Flames Draft Watcher said:
Whatever. You think THN is professional. Great.

If you read both Redline's Draft Guide and THN's Draft preview it would be obvious to anyone which one has more meat, more info. They just do not compare. That's the bottom line.

If you don't like that he takes shots at an inferior publication so be it. But the Hockey News draft preview is literally a joke compared to the real draft guides. Are you trying to dispute that?
FDW, I think you are more professional than Woodlief. There are those who are apt to controversy, and those who are not.

You are going out of your way to defend Woodlief. He is a guy that badmouths people for the sake of their own ego.(Which is unprofessional and uncalled for.)

I should add a caveat that says that it doesn't affect how I view his RLR to an extreme effect, but it does make me temper some of the rankings which might be based on personal feelings and personal agenda.
 
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Dr_Chimera*

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George Bachul said:
FDW, I think you are more professional than Woodlief. There are those who are apt to controversy, and those who are not.

You are going out of your way to defend Woodlief. He is a guy that badmouths people for the sake of their own ego.(Which is unprofessional and uncalled for.)

Which is probably why he could never stick with the Predators.

He's a reject, but he's still trying to float up to the top. Not like this.
 

PSUhockey34

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Hey was he the one draft analysis in last year's draft screaming about why Praise hadnt been selected by the mid-way point of the 1st round?
 

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Alfredo_Garcia said:
That's irrelevant (although THN does stand up for a single issue quite well).

What's relevant is that the joke is Woodlief.

And if you think that Redline is more respected than THN, you're on another planet.

I don't really care about how much other people respect him. I judge him based on his work. And his work is light years ahead of the THN draft preview. Seems to me you're not informed on that subject if you haven't read the Redline draft guide. I think if you had this discussion wouldn't be happening as their product stands up as being 100 times better than the THN Draft preview.

If people don't respect him for taking shots at THN and the NCAA fine. But it's a pity that some people let that taint their opinions of his scouting work because they do a reasonable job and I'm saying that based on reading their past 4 draft guides and seeing how out to lunch or bang on they've been. If you want real draft info you'd get a draft guide from ISS or McKeens or Redline. If you want a fluffy piece with some contradictory quotes and misleading quotes then get THN. As I said, I get both, have for years and am judging their products based on that.
 

Dr_Chimera*

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I don't really care about how much other people respect him. I judge him based on his work. And his work is light years ahead of the THN draft preview. Seems to me you're not informed on that subject if you haven't read the Redline draft guide. I think if you had this discussion wouldn't be happening as their product stands up as being 100 times better than the THN Draft preview.

If people don't respect him for taking shots at THN and the NCAA fine. But it's a pity that some people let that taint their opinions of his scouting work because they do a reasonable job and I'm saying that based on reading their past 4 draft guides and seeing how out to lunch or bang on they've been. If you want real draft info you'd get a draft guide from ISS or McKeens or Redline. If you want a fluffy piece with some contradictory quotes and misleading quotes then get THN. As I said, I get both, have for years and am judging their products based on that.

I don't worship THN - never did. But they are indeed a respected source (more respected than Woodlief) and he will never be if he keeps acting like this.

There is a reason why independent scouts like Mr. Woodlief do not get press box access at games - it's because they are looked down upon. It looks like he's blowing off some steam maybe because his ass hurts from those uncomfortable nosebleed seats.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Duff88 said:
He answered my question as soon as I posted it. (In flash chat, as soon as I clicked submit, my question was on the screen to be the next answered) :dunno:

Same here.

Woodlief makes these kinds of backhanded comments, but as George B said, I don't let it affect how I read into the rankings too much.

After all, I'm just a fan looking for some info headed up to and after the draft. I'm not picking the guys. The scouts who do go by their own rankings, and their not going to answer questions like this in a chat. Woodlief does and I'm glad for it because I get some info. Plus, while unprofessional, the backhanded comments are usually pretty funny.

By the way, there will be another Woodlief chat on usatoday.com tommorow, I think around the same time.
 

Prucha73

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Zednik20 said:
Same here! Here's mine (of this Woodlief ass raging on me). :lol


Darren, Vancouver BC: You're very high on Finnish forward Lauri Korpikoski after his performance at the under 18 tournament. Is there cause for concern for teams picking in the mid-1st round that he really came out of nowhere? And that his only real dominating performance was playing alongside Lauri Tukonen and Petteri Nokelainen?

Kyle Woodlief: (12:55 PM ET ) Came out of nowhere? What planet have you been on? He's been in Red Line's top 25 for five months now. Everyone in the scouting community has known about him at least since the middle of the season. And by the way, it's Korpikoski who was the catalyst of that line, not Nokelainen or Tukonen. Korpikoski was the one doing it on his own without either of them at the Five Nations in Pori, Finland, back in early February. I suspect people who don't know about him only read the posers and wannabes like the folks at the hockey news, who don't employ any scouts and never set foot in junior rinks anywhere around the world, yet pretend to know something about the players they write about.

Wow, Woodlief is a complete jerk.
 

Chili

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Last year, he ducked my questions on a guy I liked, Corey Crawford. He had him ranked ninth among the goalers available (he ended up being the 2nd one drafted behind MAF). CC had another solid year in jr so I'll be interested to see how his career develops against those Redline had rated higher.
 

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George Bachul said:
BTW, anyone else catch the "wannabe and posers at the hockey news" shot....very unprofessional. :(

I'd like to point out it was I who asked the Meszaros (and other publications) question. :win:
 

Oilers Chick

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Anyone remember this Woodlief gem from last year...

Grey,Maine: What is the major difference between major junior hockey and NCAA and could the new major junior team here in Lewiston beat UMAINE if they were ever allowed to play ?

Kyle Woodlief: The major difference is that the NCAA is run by a bunch of antiquated dinosaurs and fossils whose main interest is in short-sighted and narrow-minded protectionism of their own little fief-doms.
Major Junior hockey is faster and more physical, and there's a lot more depth in quality, skilled players.
The other problem in scouting college hockey is that nowadays, most U.S. kids don't enter college until they are 20 or 21 years old and have played a couple of years in junior leagues in the U.S. (usually at the request of the college coaches who are recruiting them). Therefore, most college kids are no longer eligible for the draft. True freshmen such as Vanek, Parise, Jessiman, Stuart, Kessler, and Eaves are the exceptions today, rather than the rule. It's much more common to watch 24 and 25-year-old seniors than it is to watch an 18 year-old freshman.

...and which dinosaurs or fossils is he actually talking about? If he's referring to the NCAA's governing body, I can't say that I completely disagree with him because I'm not too high on them myself. I find some of their rules questionable or in the case of the stupid "Opt-In" rule downright absurd and nonsense. Now if he's referring to coaching staffs, I very much beg to differ because the coaching staffs do a heckuva job and some of them have a LOT less to work with than others.

Who cares if a kid enters the collegiate ranks at 18 or 20. He's still getting a chance to play, develop and be seen. If he's fortuante enough, he'll be drafted and play pro hockey someday. The NCAA has its share of talented individuals. If it didn't why would NHL teams even bother sending scouts out to see these players? Furthermore, many in the NHL (whether Woodlief wants to believe it or not) have come from the NCAA ranks and have done quite well, may they be current or former players, coaches or GMs.

Maybe someone should ask Woodlief (since he seems to think he has all the RIGHT answers) why Thomas Vanek chose to play for the University of Minnesota over the Brandon Wheat Kings? I'd love to hear his reply to THAT question!
 

TVanek26*

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Duff88 said:
He answered my question as soon as I posted it. (In flash chat, as soon as I clicked submit, my question was on the screen to be the next answered) :dunno:


I wasn't in flash chat :)

I'm surprised how little questions he got in...23 in an hour and a half?Glad he got to mine...
 

BobMckenzie

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Zednik20 said:
Kyle Woodlief: (12:55 PM ET ) Came out of nowhere? What planet have you been on? He's been in Red Line's top 25 for five months now. Everyone in the scouting community has known about him at least since the middle of the season. And by the way, it's Korpikoski who was the catalyst of that line, not Nokelainen or Tukonen. Korpikoski was the one doing it on his own without either of them at the Five Nations in Pori, Finland, back in early February. I suspect people who don't know about him only read the posers and wannabes like the folks at the hockey news, who don't employ any scouts and never set foot in junior rinks anywhere around the world, yet pretend to know something about the players they write about.

The wisdom of the ages cries out for silence here, but since I'm not that wise but I am pretty old, I'll shoot my mouth off for what it's worth.

First, I currently have no connection whatsoever to The Hockey News Draft Preview and haven't now for a good number of years, but I did found it way back when in the 80s and did personally do the rankings and the prospect write ups from inception until about four or five years ago. During my tenure at THN and since I left there four years ago, I don't recall anybody at THN ever purporting the Draft Preview is anything but what it is -- a preview of the draft. So when I read Kyle's comments about THN being posers and wannabes and that they don't employ scouts or set foot in junior rinks anywhere yet they pretend to know something about the players they write about, I kind of wondered where all that was coming from. Sounds pretty bitter to me. Comparing THN and Redline are apples and oranges. THN is a newspaper. They do what newspapers do, and that includes taking the insights and wisdom of others and making sure they get it out to the reading public. There's no hidden agenda there and I don't believe anyone at THN is interested in passing themselves off a scout. I know when I was there I didn't although people do tend to assume you know more than you do. Redline is a scouting service. Kyle, as I understand it, is a scout who likes to do a newsletter. A cynic might suggest he's the "wannabe," as in a wannabe NHL scout, but I'm not a cynic so I wouldn't say that.

And I wouldn't refer to Chris Bourque as a "puke" but if I was trying to sell a newsletter maybe I would. No shot there. Redline is informative and entertaining. It is for the hardcore hockey fan who wants something above and beyond what can be obtained in the mainstream. THN's Draft Preview is more mainstream and designed to be so because, believe it or not, there are hockey fans, even some serious ones, who have only a passing interest in the draft and THN's Preview more than meets their needs. Since I stopped doing THN's Draft Preview I believe Alan Adams has been overseeing the rankings and the profiles and I think he has done a credible job and I guess when I read Kyle's comments about posers and wannabes, I felt the need to say a word or two on behalf of THN and myself really, who uses the same system now at TSN to rank prospects that I did when I was at THN.

Maybe that makes me a poser or a wannabe, but what I think what it really makes me is busy. Like the folks at THN, my job description is wide and varied. Covering the NHL on a daily basis for the better part of 10 months is a big job. The draft is just one element of it, so I had better be able to rely on the opinions and insights of scouts and GMs because unlike scouts or quasi scouts like Kyle, I can't get to the junior rinks all over the world. He can. Good for him. So I guess what it comes down to is I think Kyle should be proud of the job he does and the work he puts into it and how he's a real live hockey scout, but I'm not sure why he needs to tear down others in the media who happen to do work in the draft field. I know what my mother would say, that it's not nice to tear down others to build yourself up.

We all have our jobs. Some of us are reporters. We report on what other people have to say and I don't think Al Adams or me or anyone else is trying to pass themselves off as a hockey scout. I may not have first-hand knowledge of these prospects but I do know what a lot of scouts and GMs think of many of the players and without betraying any confidences, it's my job to get that information out to those who find it interesting.

Finally, in the big picture, I would say that Korpikoski did indeed come out of nowhere. Any player who will be drafted in the first round, and as Kyle suggests probably in the first half of the first round, and who wasn't on anyone's radar screen, including RLR's, at the beginning of the season would, IMHO, be classified as coming out of nowhere. At least on my planet.

Bob McKenzie
TSN
 

Oilers Chick

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BobMckenzie said:
The wisdom of the ages cries out for silence here, but since I'm not that wise but I am pretty old, I'll shoot my mouth off for what it's worth.

First, I currently have no connection whatsoever to The Hockey News Draft Preview and haven't now for a good number of years, but I did found it way back when in the 80s and did personally do the rankings and the prospect write ups from inception until about four or five years ago. During my tenure at THN and since I left there four years ago, I don't recall anybody at THN ever purporting the Draft Preview is anything but what it is -- a preview of the draft. So when I read Kyle's comments about THN being posers and wannabes and that they don't employ scouts or set foot in junior rinks anywhere yet they pretend to know something about the players they write about, I kind of wondered where all that was coming from. Sounds pretty bitter to me. Comparing THN and Redline are apples and oranges. THN is a newspaper. They do what newspapers do, and that includes taking the insights and wisdom of others and making sure they get it out to the reading public. There's no hidden agenda there and I don't believe anyone at THN is interested in passing themselves off a scout. I know when I was there I didn't although people do tend to assume you know more than you do. Redline is a scouting service. Kyle, as I understand it, is a scout who likes to do a newsletter. A cynic might suggest he's the "wannabe," as in a wannabe NHL scout, but I'm not a cynic so I wouldn't say that.

And I wouldn't refer to Chris Bourque as a "puke" but if I was trying to sell a newsletter maybe I would. No shot there. Redline is informative and entertaining. It is for the hardcore hockey fan who wants something above and beyond what can be obtained in the mainstream. THN's Draft Preview is more mainstream and designed to be so because, believe it or not, there are hockey fans, even some serious ones, who have only a passing interest in the draft and THN's Preview more than meets their needs. Since I stopped doing THN's Draft Preview I believe Alan Adams has been overseeing the rankings and the profiles and I think he has done a credible job and I guess when I read Kyle's comments about posers and wannabes, I felt the need to say a word or two on behalf of THN and myself really, who uses the same system now at TSN to rank prospects that I did when I was at THN.

Maybe that makes me a poser or a wannabe, but what I think what it really makes me is busy. Like the folks at THN, my job description is wide and varied. Covering the NHL on a daily basis for the better part of 10 months is a big job. The draft is just one element of it, so I had better be able to rely on the opinions and insights of scouts and GMs because unlike scouts or quasi scouts like Kyle, I can't get to the junior rinks all over the world. He can. Good for him. So I guess what it comes down to is I think Kyle should be proud of the job he does and the work he puts into it and how he's a real live hockey scout, but I'm not sure why he needs to tear down others in the media who happen to do work in the draft field. I know what my mother would say, that it's not nice to tear down others to build yourself up.

We all have our jobs. Some of us are reporters. We report on what other people have to say and I don't think Al Adams or me or anyone else is trying to pass themselves off as a hockey scout. I may not have first-hand knowledge of these prospects but I do know what a lot of scouts and GMs think of many of the players and without betraying any confidences, it's my job to get that information out to those who find it interesting.

Finally, in the big picture, I would say that Korpikoski did indeed come out of nowhere. Any player who will be drafted in the first round, and as Kyle suggests probably in the first half of the first round, and who wasn't on anyone's radar screen, including RLR's, at the beginning of the season would, IMHO, be classified as coming out of nowhere. At least on my planet.

Bob McKenzie
TSN

Thanks for that insight, Bob. I, for one, certainly appreciate what you guys do at THN.

For the record, I'm not knocking RLR. It does a good job at what it does....scouting reports. It's informative, insightful and for the most part, well-written. As George mentioned, I do think that Woodlief's comments are unprofessional and it's a shame that someone who has the insights that he does (even if I don't always agree with them) would have to resort to such tactics. But to each his own I guess.
 

YKOil

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Truth be told my instincts would be screaming at me to stay away from the three Finns altogether.

I learned a valuable lesson from the Recchi-Cullen-Stevens line in Pittsburgh a looong time ago, which is - unless you who the guy-who-drives-the-line is - stay away. It became obvious after a while that Recchi was the true 'star' level player from that line and that the other two, while good hockey players in their own right, simply rode the amazing chemistry the three of them had together. Recchi was the straw that turned that drink to be sure.

So unless the Oiler staff know who the BEST player on that line is - I hope they stay away because taking any player other than that one guy is, basically, a wasted pick.

My opinion anyways.


YKOil
 

Dr_Chimera*

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BobMckenzie said:
Redline is a scouting service. Kyle, as I understand it, is a scout who likes to do a newsletter. A cynic might suggest he's the "wannabe," as in a wannabe NHL scout, but I'm not a cynic so I wouldn't say that.

Have you read Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Bob?

I think you have:)
 

Slats432

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Oilers Chick said:
Thanks for that insight, Bob. I, for one, certainly appreciate what you guys do at THN.

For the record, I'm not knocking RLR. It does a good job at what it does....scouting reports. It's informative, insightful and for the most part, well-written. As George mentioned, I do think that Woodlief's comments are unprofessional and it's a shame that someone who has the insights that he does (even if I don't always agree with them) would have to resort to such tactics. But to each his own I guess.
And that is exactly what I am saying OC, that the job that RLR does is an important one to provide valuable insights to the hockey community. Like any other ranking organization, they will have their hits and misses.(For example, they seem to hit David Brown on the head, and kudos to them) Their product has many fans so it must have inherent value.

The disappointing part is you want to align yourself with good respectful business people, and support organizations and publications worthy of your hard earned money. Kyle, at times, says things in a Barry Bondsian candor that tempers my feelings towards an otherwise very intelligent hockey man.
 
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