Wins Skaters
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I kind of remember Chelios breaking a wins record, not sure if it was regular season or playoff wins. I think Chelios might have broken Stevens' record.
As far as I knew Stevens had the regular season win record by a fair bit. Never heard anything of Chelios overtaking that record, atleast that I can recall.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
The googles are our friend.
From January, 2009:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/01/chris_chelios_becomes_nhls_win.html
Still would be interesting to see an actual list.
From January, 2009:
http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2009/01/chris_chelios_becomes_nhls_win.html
Still would be interesting to see an actual list.
Epsilon
#basta
The Red Wings have won 826 regular season games during Nicklas Lidstrom's career. He's obviously missed several of those, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's over 800 right now.
pnep
Registered User
Sorry Devils fans, Brodeur may still be the greatest goalie of all time, but Chelios is now the greatest skater of all time, not Stevens.
He has the most wins after all, and it doesn't matter how he got it done, he did
He has the most wins after all, and it doesn't matter how he got it done, he did
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I support this thread. Focusing on wins for skaters is just as valid as focusing on wins for goalies.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I was waiting for someone to say this, and there's absolutely no way that it's "just as valid," not even close.
Chelios beat Stevens by holding on as a bottom pairing defenseman for quite a few seasons - probably the equivalent of a backup goaltender. Whereas Stevens went out on top more or less. So I'll say Stevens still holds the record as a skater with a big role.
Seriously though, total wins for skaters doesn't tell us anything without knowing that skater's role. Whereas a goalie has to be a starter (and 95% of the time play the full 60 minutes) to be credited with a win. He also has to not suck enough to lose the game for his team by himself.
Honestly, as questionable as focusing on wins for goaltenders is, the stat itself does us something: A winning team trusted that goalie enough in net to keep him there for a lot of games, and he came through and did his part to win. Racking up a lot of wins shows a mixture of durability and trust given by a winning team (which is why I think total wins shows a lot more than winning percentage). And that most definitely is something that should be taken into account.
(Nothing against the premise of this thread - I do find it interesting).
I was waiting for someone to say this, and there's absolutely no way that it's "just as valid," not even close.
Chelios beat Stevens by holding on as a bottom pairing defenseman for quite a few seasons - probably the equivalent of a backup goaltender. Whereas Stevens went out on top more or less. So I'll say Stevens still holds the record as a skater with a big role.
Seriously though, total wins for skaters doesn't tell us anything without knowing that skater's role. Whereas a goalie has to be a starter (and 95% of the time play the full 60 minutes) to be credited with a win. He also has to not suck enough to lose the game for his team by himself.
Honestly, as questionable as focusing on wins for goaltenders is, the stat itself does us something: A winning team trusted that goalie enough in net to keep him there for a lot of games, and he came through and did his part to win. Racking up a lot of wins shows a mixture of durability and trust given by a winning team (which is why I think total wins shows a lot more than winning percentage). And that most definitely is something that should be taken into account.
(Nothing against the premise of this thread - I do find it interesting).
You're right that goalies can single-handidly lose games in a way skaters can't, and that it's impossible for a goalie to compile wins by being consistently bad on a good team (because the replacement threshold is much higher). But it's still possible for fairly pedestrian goalies to compile wins with longevity on a good team, the threshold of individual talent at which this is possible is just higher. There's also the fact that career longevity in skaters shows that they were good young. If you're bad young, you won't be good enough to play in the NHL once you start declining.
I also think that if we're going to look at career, in v. out of the lineup is very relevant, as is why they didn't get them at certain times (such as political reasons, cough cough). I'd be interested to see how Hasek ranks in career wins at 28+. People remember his career as being fairly short, and I think a lot of them aren't aware he played well into his 40s and it was actually because he was in Europe, not because he declined early.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
True. It certainly shouldn't be the only measure of a goalie, or even the main one. A team can win if any skater has a poor game, but the goalie generally has to play reasonably well for the team to win due to the nature of the position.*
*Unless it's Game 6 of the 2000 playoffs between the Devils and Leafs.
True. It certainly shouldn't be the only measure of a goalie, or even the main one. A team can win if any skater has a poor game, but the goalie generally has to play reasonably well for the team to win due to the nature of the position.*
*Unless it's Game 6 of the 2000 playoffs between the Devils and Leafs.
Naw, that game was won because of all the key saves Brodeur made. I mean, he only made like six. How much more key can they get?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I was waiting for someone to say this, and there's absolutely no way that it's "just as valid," not even close.
Chelios beat Stevens by holding on as a bottom pairing defenseman for quite a few seasons - probably the equivalent of a backup goaltender. Whereas Stevens went out on top more or less. So I'll say Stevens still holds the record as a skater with a big role.
Seriously though, total wins for skaters doesn't tell us anything without knowing that skater's role. Whereas a goalie has to be a starter (and 95% of the time play the full 60 minutes) to be credited with a win. He also has to not suck enough to lose the game for his team by himself.
Honestly, as questionable as focusing on wins for goaltenders is, the stat itself does us something: A winning team trusted that goalie enough in net to keep him there for a lot of games, and he came through and did his part to win. Racking up a lot of wins shows a mixture of durability and trust given by a winning team (which is why I think total wins shows a lot more than winning percentage). And that most definitely is something that should be taken into account.
(Nothing against the premise of this thread - I do find it interesting).
OK, OK, I back off. It's not "just as valid" - it's "somewhat as valid". But more importantly it highlights the absurdity of focusing so much on a team statistic as opposed to stats that do a better job of understanding the goalie's individual performance.
As far as Chelios passing Stevens, isn't that just the parallel of a guy who sticks around as a middling starter, winning 25 games for bad teams, or who sticks around as a backup for a few years, and manages to rise up a few spots on the vaunted all-time leaders list as a result?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Naw, that game was won because of all the key saves Brodeur made. I mean, he only made like six. How much more key can they get?
Each save represented 17% of his total save count. That's huge!
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