Confirmed with Link: Wings Trade Datsyuk and 16 to Arizona for Vitale, #20 and #53

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Bench

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Chychrun fell for a reason.

So what does that say about the guy taken at #20 then? Or #53?

You say he "fell for a reason" ignoring the counter argument that "someone traded up for him... for a reason." Like Arizona is just in the business of giving away extra draft picks for guys they don't love. Or that Nashville, completely loaded at D for the next decade, was totally happy taking Fabbro at #17. No consideration for that?

We don't have a winner on this yet. I don't know why people are obsessing go find one. But I do sympathize with the people who wish the Wings would have taken the best available defender.
 

Marky9er

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The guy taken at 20 was rising as fast as he was growing taller is what it says. Trending in the right direction at least.
 

Bench

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The guy taken at 20 was rising as fast as he was growing taller is what it says. Trending in the right direction at least.

Right, but he got passed on by Arizona and Nashville who were right there to take him.

It's the counter argument to the "teams passed on him for a reason" spiel. I don't actually know who will end up better in 5 years, but I think it's a silly argument, because it cuts all directions. It means nothing.
 

Pavels Dog

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So what does that say about the guy taken at #20 then? Or #53?

You say he "fell for a reason" ignoring the counter argument that "someone traded up for him... for a reason." Like Arizona is just in the business of giving away extra draft picks for guys they don't love. Or that Nashville, completely loaded at D for the next decade, was totally happy taking Fabbro at #17. No consideration for that?

We don't have a winner on this yet. I don't know why people are obsessing go find one. But I do sympathize with the people who wish the Wings would have taken the best available defender.
I'm not saying the Wings won(in terms of the guys they picked) but I think people are overselling who we 'skipped'. Chychrun is being built up into some kind of slam-dunk generational d-man. But a guy with his physical tools wouldn't fall so far if he didn't have serious flaws or serious questions about his potential. Wings chose a guy that looks like he hasn't eaten in months over Chychrun who could probably step right into the NHL. Arizona was the only team that seemed desperate for him. Who made the right choice? We'll know in 5-10 years.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Right, but he got passed on by Arizona and Nashville who were right there to take him.

It's the counter argument to the "teams passed on him for a reason" spiel. I don't actually know who will end up better in 5 years, but I think it's a silly argument, because it cuts all directions. It means nothing.

Well you also have to include the Czech kid in that equation too. I mean if we wind up with two NHL defenders out of the trade that seems like a pretty big win unless one of the three first rounders knocks it out of the park.
 

Bench

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Well you also have to include the Czech kid in that equation too. I mean if we wind up with two NHL defenders out of the trade that seems like a pretty big win unless one of the three first rounders knocks it out of the park.

I'm not picking winners and losers. I'm dismantling faulty arguments, though. :naughty:
 

Frk It

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Well you also have to include the Czech kid in that equation too. I mean if we wind up with two NHL defenders out of the trade that seems like a pretty big win unless one of the three first rounders knocks it out of the park.

We don't need NHL defenders. We don't need quantity. We need quality. Like quality you might get from the kid that was the #1 ranked defenseman pretty much all year, that fell because scouts over-analyzed the hell out of him.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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We don't need NHL defenders. We don't need quantity. We need quality. Like quality you might get from the kid that was the #1 ranked defenseman pretty much all year, that fell because scouts over-analyzed the hell out of him.

Actually just as a point and I would have taken him without the second round pick and taking Datsyuk... But the critique on Chychrun and what he was criticized for is something you used to swear off Sean Day for any round. That was that people openly began questioning his hockey sense. Fairly alarming but I am inclined to believe it is more of a Fowler case and he is going to be a good #3 or really solid #2 that is really elevated by OEL.

But the hang up on him is something you generally go bananas over on other prospects. Basically a whole bunch of teams just said he doesn't think the game well enough to be a top pairing guy. Button practically slammed the table at every opportunity to make the point as he was sliding that he was a bottom four guy that is all he was in his opinion and several talent evaluation people he talks to.

If the argument is we don't need another middle pairing guy, given the upside I think we made the right pick, but it is a long-shot. There is a good chance Chychrun winds up being Danny DeKeyser kind of guy. But we went with guys that have considerably more offensive upside in both the first and second round.
 

Marky9er

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We don't need NHL defenders. We don't need quantity. We need quality. Like quality you might get from the kid that was the #1 ranked defenseman pretty much all year, that fell because scouts over-analyzed the hell out of him.
You could in theory get that quality from the Czech defender who those same scouts did not have enough opportunity to analyze, though.

The opposite is also true.
 

Frk It

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Actually just as a point and I would have taken him without the second round pick and taking Datsyuk... But the critique on Chychrun and what he was criticized for is something you used to swear off Sean Day for any round. That was that people openly began questioning his hockey sense. Fairly alarming but I am inclined to believe it is more of a Fowler case and he is going to be a good #3 or really solid #2 that is really elevated by OEL.

But the hang up on him is something you generally go bananas over on other prospects. Basically a whole bunch of teams just said he doesn't think the game well enough to be a top pairing guy. Button practically slammed the table at every opportunity to make the point as he was sliding that he was a bottom four guy that is all he was in his opinion and several talent evaluation people he talks to.

If the argument is we don't need another middle pairing guy, given the upside I think we made the right pick, but it is a long-shot. But we went with guys that have considerably more offensive upside in both the first and second round.

Ok, the reason I didn't like Day was the lack of hockey sense coupled (more importantly) with the lack of production. Physically a complete man among boys yet never translates to the box score, and don't think he has nearly the offensive toolbox as Chychrun or others.

I don't think Chychrun has the ideal hockey sense I'd want, I concede that, but I think he makes up for that with being a physical specimen and I think he is very involved at both ends of the ice. Kind of similar to a guy like Phaneuf. He distributes and handles the puck way better than Day, and I think is very poised in the offensive zone.

I don't think he's a guaranteed #1 or anything. But I think he'll be a good #2 or very solid #3, and I don't think he will take that long to get there.

We alternatively took two kids that are 160 something lbs, and are about as raw as you can get. Could bust altogether, and probably don't stiff the league for at least 4 years. Neither have much of a track record of producing offense themselves, and Wright said he is 'hoping' for more offensive flair from Cholowski.

I just thought we had the golden opportunity. Top 10 talent without a bottom 10 finish. Basically what everyone is asking for on here with asking for tanking, but without even having to tank. With McAvoy gone, there was the guarantee of Chychrun or Fabbro. Both guys that received votes from scouts as being the best defenseman in the draft. Doesn't help that Nashville, a team that doesn't need defenseman and also has a great eye for spotting them, took Fabbro at #17 either.

I think it was more about Holland flexing his muscles and trying to make a splash in free agency with declining stars, and 1 year until the new arena opens. Hopefully one of these kids crushes their development. Really like the Sambrook pick, and like that Hronek is playing CHL hockey. Cholowski is intriguing, but not really thrilled he's going to St. Cloud to be perfectly honest. Much prefer the CHL, or a bigger college program with less crowded back end.
 
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vladdy16

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By the way, if Chychurun turns into an All-star in Ari, it doesn't necessarily mean he would've done the same in Det.

There's a Stan Van Gundy quote on this fact somewhere.
 

Dotter

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I'm still happy with the pick KH made with his 20th pick. You can flip a coin on who's going to be better. Both have holes in their game, both have good parts in their game. I like the way Detroit is thinking with skating, hockey sense and size. If the kid was 5'8" and 165, I'd be worried. But he's like 6'1" and 177. And is expected to grow more as his brother is like what, 6'4"?

Reports questions Chychrun lack of hockey sense. That's not good if you are expecting a top paring dman.

Wings also got a free 2nd rounder and got rid of Datsyuks' cap hit. Had Stamkos hit the open market and KH didn't have the money to pay him.,...... whew doggy!! HF melt down in the 1st degree. Tar and feather meet Ken Holland. Lol
 

Claypool

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Had Stamkos hit the open market and KH didn't have the money to pay him.,...... whew doggy!! HF melt down in the 1st degree. Tar and feather meet Ken Holland. Lol

Pretty much, and if it was discovered Holland turned down that deal with Arizona at the draft you know people here would still be upset.
 

Flowah

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I'm still happy with the pick KH made with his 20th pick. You can flip a coin on who's going to be better. Both have holes in their game, both have good parts in their game. I like the way Detroit is thinking with skating, hockey sense and size. If the kid was 5'8" and 165, I'd be worried. But he's like 6'1" and 177. And is expected to grow more as his brother is like what, 6'4"?

Reports questions Chychrun lack of hockey sense. That's not good if you are expecting a top paring dman.

Wings also got a free 2nd rounder and got rid of Datsyuks' cap hit. Had Stamkos hit the open market and KH didn't have the money to pay him.,...... whew doggy!! HF melt down in the 1st degree. Tar and feather meet Ken Holland. Lol

I'd 100x rather get a kid with hockey sense who might grow, which tons of 18 year olds do, than get a big kid who has no hockey sense and hope he develops it which far fewer players do.

Hockey sense, imo, is almost unteachable.
 

Pavels Dog

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Hard to believe he was ever ranked #2 without that.
Eh, doesn't matter much how guys are ranked long before the draft. Some guys grow early and physically dominate, but as others catch up it becomes obvious they're not the most talented in other areas. Chychrun has good potential but don't expect him to turn into another OEL.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Hard to believe he was ever ranked #2 without that.

Chychrun's fall wasn't nearly as bad but Nick Ebert started his draft year in the top 5 of a bunch of lists. It has happened before.

Fowler is kind of the positive spin on this. Where he was over-analyzed to death and feel pretty shockingly. Of course he was/is a significantly better skater than Chychrun.
 
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Henkka

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Reports questions Chychrun lack of hockey sense. That's not good if you are expecting a top paring dman.

Yep. There was some Dion Phaneuf comparisons. Muscles to shine over weak juniors and nice slapshot but no IQ.

More important puck possession has become in NHL, more low-IQ guys like Phaneuf have regressed.
 
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Nemesis Prime

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Weren't the Yotes torn between him and Keller with their first pick? So really, he could have been a top 10 pick. But because he fell he's getting crapped on, where it looks like most teams were picking on need vs. BPA.
 

OriginalJetsCoyotes

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The Zetterberg Era said:
Fowler is kind of the positive spin on this. Where he was over-analyzed to death and feel pretty shockingly. Of course he was/is a significantly better skater than Chychrun.

That's harsh, one of his biggest assets is his skating. The kid uses his edges extremly well. I wanted him at 7, that he was available for us to trade to get at 16 was a miracle in my eyes. He has a chip on his shoulder after falling and is greatful we traded up to get him. He already has some of the best work ethic in the draft and now he is motivated to prove doubters wrong. I couldn't be more excited about the kid, he does still have potential to be a top pairing defenseman but even if he isn't he'll be a solid top 4 for us.
 

RedMachine87

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That's harsh, one of his biggest assets is his skating. The kid uses his edges extremly well. I wanted him at 7, that he was available for us to trade to get at 16 was a miracle in my eyes. He has a chip on his shoulder after falling and is greatful we traded up to get him. He already has some of the best work ethic in the draft and now he is motivated to prove doubters wrong. I couldn't be more excited about the kid, he does still have potential to be a top pairing defenseman but even if he isn't he'll be a solid top 4 for us.

Good for you I guess? You should post this on the Coyotes board, you'll probably get more "rah rah that's right Chychrun is amazing."
 
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