Will Goodenow go down in sports history as the smartest fool of all time?

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BLONG7

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The players would never start their own league... if they did, they would then find out there is a major difference in signing cheques for all costs, instead of just cashing their cheques, at all costs...
 

sunb

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Bicycle Repairman said:
It's borne out by the example of scores of businesses who suffered long-term damage to the bottom-line by the buying public when they persued a stigmatic policy of scab labor.

The scab labor we are discussing is neither long-term nor stigmatic.
It is merely a short-term transition into fiscal balance.

After 2-3 years with replacement players, the NHL will see to that it resumes drafting the best young players from junior leagues and inviting the best players of the world to earn those enormous wages that European leagues simply cannot sustain dishing out.
 

quat

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Newsguyone said:
20 years from now, people will hardly remember Goodenow's name.
I'm not blaming this on Bettman (not in this thread anyway).
I'm not stupid enough to suggest this about 1 person's ego. (Or even two people's ego)
This is about greed. On both sides.
My point is about responsibility.
Regardless of how you feel about Goodenow, this armegeddon, as it has been called, has happened on Bettman's watch

Then we certainly can find some common ground. These are two people who are supposed to be working together to make hockey work, and today it would seem they have failed in this regard quite spectacularly.
 

Bicycle Repairman

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Newsguyone said:
Now, it's a stretch, of course. But what if the NHL players were in the WHA or a new league?

The problem with that is that the NHL and its affiliated minor leagues own or control more North American hockey arenas than at any other time in history. Then there's the example of the Philadelphia Flyers, who own an arena-management company which runs a dozen or so facilities.

The original WHA was helped by the fact that, back then, many hockey arenas were still owned by municipal governments that would rent out to whomever. This is not the case today.
 

Bicycle Repairman

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Jovanovski = Norris said:
The scab labor we are discussing is neither long-term nor stigmatic.
It is merely a short-term transition into fiscal balance..
Its effects will be felt long term for a league that is viewed as niche (at best) with a marginal imprint on the American sports consumer. A league that has consistently criticised its own product the last few years is not going to be viewed favorably in the future with a "scab" appellation prefaced to their brand name.
 

A Good Flying Bird*

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This whole Players vs. Franchise is interesting.

But it's not an either/or situation.

Sure, Detroit fans will always like the Wings, whether the best player is Yzerman or Dale McCourt.
So they root for the jersey.

But then again, they are also rooting for the team in a league with the best players in the world.

If the NHL was filled with low-talent scrubs instead of the best players on earth, no one would care.
Well, few would care.

If the IHL suddenly had all the top players, Detroit fans would start rooting for the Vipers, or whoever was closest.

People watch the NHL because it is the best league going.

People wouldn't be excited about their favorite NHL team if the NHL was only the second or third best league in the NHL.

I would hope that people on BOTH sides can see a symbiotic relationship here.
 

A Good Flying Bird*

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Beatnik said:
I don't understand the people who blame Goodenow and saying that the players are'nt important. If it was true there would be no problems.

The players would be paid almost nothing because the owner would have no reason to pay them well. If the owner gives those type of contract, it's because they know it brings people into the buildings.

Also those who don't care about the players should be able to appreciate any league as much as the NHL so they have no reason to hate Goodenow.

Hello!
Finally.

People are beginning to separate facts from rhetoric.
 

SENSible1*

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Bicycle Repairman said:
It's borne out by the example of scores of businesses who suffered long-term damage to the bottom-line by the buying public when they persued a stigmatic policy of scab labor.


How did replacement players turn out for the NFL?

Please explain, in detail, the damage done to their league by their use. (It shouldn't be too hard, they've been in shambles ever since ;) )
 

Bicycle Repairman

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Thunderstruck said:
How did replacement players turn out for the NFL?

Please explain, in detail, the damage done to their league by their use. (It shouldn't be too hard, they've been in shambles ever since ;) )

Was that a long term NFL strategy, though?

If I recall correctly, the NFLPA eventually won their free agency demands through the courts. Of course, this was after all the hoopla died down.
 

Kaiped Krusader

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Newsguyone said:
If the NHL was filled with low-talent scrubs instead of the best players on earth, no one would care.
Well, few would care.

If the IHL suddenly had all the top players, Detroit fans would start rooting for the Vipers, or whoever was closest.

People watch the NHL because it is the best league going.

People wouldn't be excited about their favorite NHL team if the NHL was only the second or third best league in the NHL.
Using your logic, junior teams, minor league teams, NCAA teams, and Euro teams should not have any fans at all because none of the leagues those teams play in can lay claim to being the best league in the world.

But teams in all those leagues have very dedicated followings - some downright rabid. In fact, in my experience ECHL fans are even more dedicated than NHL ones in terms of the time they put into following their teams. They don't pay as much money for tickets and concessions but many will go on weekend roadtrips to drive all over the South to watch their "low-talent scrubs."
 

Brent Burns Beard

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Kaiped Krusader said:
... but many will go on weekend roadtrips to drive all over the South to watch their "low-talent scrubs."
lol .... puck bunnies will go to all lengths to get their hockey player.

dr
 

SENSible1*

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Bicycle Repairman said:
Was that a long term NFL strategy, though?
Who, other than you, is claiming it is a long term stategy for the NHL?
If I recall correctly, the NFLPA eventually won their free agency demands through the courts. Of course, this was after all the hoopla died down.
And the league got the best labour deal in pro sports, turning it into an unparalleled success story ever since.
 
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Brent Burns Beard

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Thunderstruck said:
And the league got the best labour deal in pro sports, turning it into an unparalled success story ever since.
in fairness, do you believe that the NHL shares the same dynamics and synergies that a new CBA will suddenly see then on the same path and results as the NFL ?

do you believe the NFL CBA is the primary reason for its success story ?

dr
 

SENSible1*

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DR said:
in fairness, do you believe that the NHL shares the same dynamics and synergies that a new CBA will suddenly see then on the same path and results as the NFL ?
I don't believe anyone can accurately predict all the outcomes of any deal. However, I do feel it will provide the opportunity for a healthier league.

do you believe the NFL CBA is the primary reason for its success story ?

dr
It certainly is a contributing factor and IMO a fairly significant one.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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Thunderstruck said:
I don't believe anyone can accurately predict all the outcomes of any deal. However, I do feel it will provide the opportunity for a healthier league.
i dont see it.

i want to know specifically how the supposed low revenue teams will benefit by being forced to spend MORE and not EARN more.

Bettmans plan does not address at all the revenue disparities issue. It in fact makes it WORSE for the teams he is supposdly SAVING.

dr
 

ColinM

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But the NFL was already very successful before they had a Salary Cap. During the early 1980s the SuperBowl was one of the premier sporting events in the United States.

A big part of the NFL success is that unlike the NHL they are selling a sport that Americans like. Some College football games attract crowds of close 100 000 fans. Even High School football is a huge attraction in some smaller American towns. There a very few locations in the United States that have that same level of passion for hockey leagues that are not the NHL. Throw in the fact that it is a popular sport to gamble on and you'd have a league that could thrive even without a salary cap.
 

usiel

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The players AND the teams are important. However that being said if the NHL went to replacement players the NHLPA will not last long. Fans will come back to see hockey..they will be sos jonesing that "their" team is playing albeit with AHL vets and young players so attendance might be a little down, IMO.

If the players decided to negotiate some cost certainty they will get more now than they will next fall or whenever.
 

Donnie D

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do you believe the NFL CBA is the primary reason for its success story ?

What the CBA did was help to maintain footballs popularity. Since the salary cap, the league has become even more competitive with fewer teams domininating. You can argue that having different teams in the playoffs each year is good or bad, but the number of teams making the playoffs has increased since the cap took effect. The cap meant that the Cowboys couldn't become the NY Yankees of football. Teams can improve quickly over a short period of time with good drafting and free agent signings.

One thing that makes the NFL different from baseball is that fans in every city know that their team has an ability to win. That isn't the case in Baseball.
 

Jaded-Fan

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scaredsensfan said:
What rational person would conclude that forced mediocrity is a good thing?


Steelers , Patriots, Eagles.

Bengels, Cardinals.

How is the NFL enforcing mediocrity? The league merely allows each fan of each team to know that they have an equal chance, a true equal chance, to compete, every year. What the teams do with that chance is not always the same. Some teams seem to be good, very good, 7 or 8 years out of 10, some always bad, but no team or their fans can say that it was because of anything but the actions of the team and its management. And every offseason each team can pick and choose players on an equal footing.

That feeling of an equal chance year in year out keeps football great.

I was a baseball fan growing up. You could not give me tickets to a game now. I hate the entire sport.
 

Blueshirt13

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usiel said:
The players AND the teams are important. However that being said if the NHL went to replacement players the NHLPA will not last long. Fans will come back to see hockey..they will be sos jonesing that "their" team is playing albeit with AHL vets and young players so attendance might be a little down, IMO.

If the players decided to negotiate some cost certainty they will get more now than they will next fall or whenever.

I work for a company that has season tickets at MSG to entertain clients at Rangers games. I also get invited to games by salesmen whose companies use their season tickets to entertain clients. Most of the companies in my industry, from the talk I have heard, would drop their tickets should scabs be used. A significant number of companies did it for MLB when they had their strike. Hockey is not as highly accepted in the US (Canada is a different story and I think in their markets scab games would get ok attendence) as baseball was and we saw the damage to the sport when scabs were used. If scabs are used for hockey, corporate sponsors as well as corporate season ticket holders will disappear.
 

MarkZackKarl

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Are you dense? Not every team has the same players avaialbe at their disposal every season. All decisions are made based on cap-room and financial flexibility.

Nice try, though.
 

iagreewithidiots

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scaredsensfan said:
What rational person would conclude that forced mediocrity is a good thing?
Thats what Im wondering.

Why would you want a league where some teams are forced into constant rebuilding.

Keep the current CBA and watch how many teams are forced into mediocrity.
 

BLONG7

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scaredsensfan said:
Are you dense? Not every team has the same players avaialbe at their disposal every season. All decisions are made based on cap-room and financial flexibility.

Nice try, though.
Dense...dense...have you looked at your avatar??? :shakehead
 

ScottyBowman

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iagreewithidiots said:
Thats what Im wondering.

Why would you want a league where some teams are forced into constant rebuilding.

Keep the current CBA and watch how many teams are forced into mediocrity.

Those same teams will continue to be mediocre under any system.
 
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