Why would Gretzky still dominate today? Here's the secret about Gretzky...

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
He has another goal in this tournament (I think the same game) that is far more impressive. I'll look for it.
I couldn't find the full end to end rush, but here's how the goal ends up from the blue line in...

at 1:30:



And he was 16 playing against 19 and 20 year olds! That's a move that most 25 year old NHL superstars wouldn't even be able to pull off. But it's not just the move, itself; it's the vision....he purposely loses the puck at the blue line, and the puck just comes back to him. Amazing.
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
I found it! Here's the entire end to end version (the 2nd goal) Amazing:

 
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redbull

Boss
Mar 24, 2008
12,593
654
Yeah I have to agree.
Maybe Sid is stronger on the puck strictly talking about power than Gretz but it was still harder to actually take the puck from Gretz.
And Mario, maybe Sid is faster but stronger on the puck...not even remotely. Mario used to routinely have two guys hanging off him, still make a move and bury the puck top shelf.

Not to turn this thread into something different, but the point I was trying to make is that it wasn't specific abilities that separated Gretzky and Lemieux from the rest of the superstars.

If you ranked players then in terms of speed, size, conditioning, etc - neither 99 or 66 would out-score the other superstars in any category. They simply THOUGHT the game at a higher level than everyone else. That was the biggest SEPARATOR among the others.

Crosby is as highly-tuned a hockey player, athletically, as anyone. But it's his brain for the game that separates him from other highly tuned athletes today.

Gretzky couldn't win a puck battle, he was the ultimate perimeter player. He wasn't "strong on the puck" like John Tonelli in the corners, but he was elusive and shifty and seemed to have 3-4 options open to him at any point in time. And he carried the puck A LOT!

Lemieux played perimeter hockey too, except you're totally accurate that he held on to the puck as long as HE WANTED. The combination of size, reach, stickhandling was too much for defenders.

To reiterate, the context of the statement was that 99 & 66 wouldn't be hindered much (if at all) IF YOU ASSUME that players #150 (and beyond) are so much BETTER today. I acknowledge they are bigger, faster, stronger humans, in better shape, but that's not enough to convince me that it would slow down those two superstars in any significant way.

These highlight reels are pretty amazing. I mean, Youtube can make Linus Omark look like Gretzky too, that's something we see more and more every June before the draft....the highlight reel. But in Gretzky's case, it really looks like the opponents aren't trying. He really made the game look easy. The goalies look like they are not trying or just awful. He kept opponents "off-balance" better than anyone I've ever seen. Mario did the same, especially in tight on goalies and defenders, appearing to move in slow motion.
 

gretzkyoilers

Registered User
Apr 17, 2012
229
70
Yeah I have to agree.
Maybe Sid is stronger on the puck strictly talking about power than Gretz but it was still harder to actually take the puck from Gretz.
And Mario, maybe Sid is faster but stronger on the puck...not even remotely. Mario used to routinely have two guys hanging off him, still make a move and bury the puck top shelf.

THIS. Sid has great puck protection, BUT no hooking and grabbing:



Mario had guys literally hanging off of him:



Ditto Mario Jr.



To say he is stronger on the puck than prime Mario or Jagr, is nuts.
 

feffan

Registered User
Sep 9, 2010
1,949
146
Malmö
Not to turn this thread into something different, but the point I was trying to make is that it wasn't specific abilities that separated Gretzky and Lemieux from the rest of the superstars.

If you ranked players then in terms of speed, size, conditioning, etc - neither 99 or 66 would out-score the other superstars in any category. They simply THOUGHT the game at a higher level than everyone else. That was the biggest SEPARATOR among the others.

Crosby is as highly-tuned a hockey player, athletically, as anyone. But it's his brain for the game that separates him from other highly tuned athletes today.

Gretzky couldn't win a puck battle, he was the ultimate perimeter player. He wasn't "strong on the puck" like John Tonelli in the corners, but he was elusive and shifty and seemed to have 3-4 options open to him at any point in time. And he carried the puck A LOT!

Lemieux played perimeter hockey too, except you're totally accurate that he held on to the puck as long as HE WANTED. The combination of size, reach, stickhandling was too much for defenders.

To reiterate, the context of the statement was that 99 & 66 wouldn't be hindered much (if at all) IF YOU ASSUME that players #150 (and beyond) are so much BETTER today. I acknowledge they are bigger, faster, stronger humans, in better shape, but that's not enough to convince me that it would slow down those two superstars in any significant way.

These highlight reels are pretty amazing. I mean, Youtube can make Linus Omark look like Gretzky too, that's something we see more and more every June before the draft....the highlight reel. But in Gretzky's case, it really looks like the opponents aren't trying. He really made the game look easy. The goalies look like they are not trying or just awful. He kept opponents "off-balance" better than anyone I've ever seen. Mario did the same, especially in tight on goalies and defenders, appearing to move in slow motion.

The key to why so many off his goals looks as easy as they do. In some way it reminds me off Hasek in his prime, off course instead throwing the best scorers off their game. The opposite player can´t get a read and therefore is forced to either act first or so to say never get the oppurtunity to react before it´s over. Not much to do if for example your weight is wrong than to hope the shot goes wide.
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
One thing that never seems to be talked about is Gretzky's panic threashold. He simply could out wait anyone -- whether it be a forward, a defenseman, or a goalie -- with or without the puck. When he had the puck, and he would cut into the slot, he would just hold it, hold it, hold it... While everyone was expecting him to finally shoot it or pass it off, he would hold it some more, and usually make the easy play no one else but him saw until it was over and in the back of the net. That's why he scored so many "easy" wristers (almost like he was lobbing the puck) over a bunch of scrambled out players lying on the ice, goalie included. It was as though everyone had decided to commit before the play even started! That was how easy Gretzky made it look.
 

CarlWinslow

@hiphopsicles
Jan 25, 2010
7,734
140
Winnipeg
Does anyone have video of Gretzky's intentional bank pass of the side of the net with the Rangers?

Or the absurd fake slapshot pass when he was with the Kings where he doesn't pass it until the last possible second before connecting with the puck to take a shot?
 

Jumptheshark

Rebooting myself
Oct 12, 2003
99,857
13,840
Somewhere on Uranus
Anyone who played the game at any level can tell you that Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else. He had a feel for the puck and his comment with Steven Jobs always used "I did not look where the puck was, but where it was going". Gretsky saw the play like a grandmaster chess player saw the board. My weakspot when i played was that i could not guess properly where the puck was going to be, I was good man on man, but at creating and predicting the play I was useless.

one thing that people overlook about Gretz was his ability to stick handle and control the puck and no matter how the game advanced--those will be two things that will never change
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
Does anyone have video of Gretzky's intentional bank pass of the side of the net with the Rangers?

Or the absurd fake slapshot pass when he was with the Kings where he doesn't pass it until the last possible second before connecting with the puck to take a shot?
Here is the other one you're asking for.

At 12:15



I wish I could find this goal at regular speed (non slow motion) on the rush. If anyone has this game (or highlights of it), please post!
 

JuniorNelson

Registered User
Jan 21, 2010
8,631
320
E.Vancouver
Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else because nobody else played in a bubble! Nobody in history had a league bend over so far as Gretzky. It is one of the most embarrassing aspects of being a hockey fa, kmowing the league whored for Gretz.

Wnat to hide behind the net? Yes, sir! We'll move them out to give you more room!

Can't take ANY contact? No problem, we'll have our officials instruct teams before you play. Then we'll penalize any close brushes, you call, sir.

Wayne Gretzky was so coddled by the league that he played until he was too old, despite being a slightly built guy without wheels.

Where is Wayne now? Why isn't he President of the Player's Union? Well, he never played the game and everybody knows it.

If Wayne had ever played a game without tucking his shirt in to be recognized or a shift without yapping to the ref to watch him, he'd be in a wheelchair. I do not believe Gretzky in his prime could survive a period in today's league. Not the way the game is called, now. It is certain he would never finish a playoff game, much less a series!

Ever wonder why Gretz had to court Howe? It's because he never earned any respect from the older players. The greatest crybaby in the history of the game doesn't sound like a title the old boys revered, does it?
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else because nobody else played in a bubble! Nobody in history had a league bend over so far as Gretzky. It is one of the most embarrassing aspects of being a hockey fa, kmowing the league whored for Gretz.

Wnat to hide behind the net? Yes, sir! We'll move them out to give you more room!

Can't take ANY contact? No problem, we'll have our officials instruct teams before you play. Then we'll penalize any close brushes, you call, sir.

Wayne Gretzky was so coddled by the league that he played until he was too old, despite being a slightly built guy without wheels.

Where is Wayne now? Why isn't he President of the Player's Union? Well, he never played the game and everybody knows it.

If Wayne had ever played a game without tucking his shirt in to be recognized or a shift without yapping to the ref to watch him, he'd be in a wheelchair. I do not believe Gretzky in his prime could survive a period in today's league. Not the way the game is called, now. It is certain he would never finish a playoff game, much less a series!

Ever wonder why Gretz had to court Howe? It's because he never earned any respect from the older players. The greatest crybaby in the history of the game doesn't sound like a title the old boys revered, does it?

Hahaha. Another Canucks fan bitter about the constant beatings Gretzky provided them over the years.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,798
754
Helsinki, Finland
We were talking about leading every international tournament in scoring (i.e., POINTS). As for who was "the best player" in each tournament, that's up for debate. But since you brought it up, which tournaments (up to the 1991 Canada Cup) would you say he was NOT the best player (besides the 1981 Canada Cup and 1982 World Championships you already mentioned)?? You said, "maybe a couple other tournaments are arguable too." To which I say, which ones are you referring to? (And by the way, Gretzky scored 2 goals and 2 assists in the final game of the 1982 World Championships, winning the game and the bronze for Canada.)

Yes, I know you were talking about scoring, but I just wanted to emphasize - maybe redudantly? - that the top scorer is not always the best player/forward; Viktor Zhluktov in the 1976 Canada Cup would be a prime example... he might have gotten the most points, but he didn't really dominate anything (and of course I'm not comparing Zhluktov to Gretzky in any way!). Gretzky often won the scoring title by 1 point (1981 CC, 1982 WC, 1984 CC, 1991 CC...), so it's not like he always blew away the competition, points-wise or in other ways. Yes, he still proved that he was an excellent player in international competition too.

I'd say that the 1984 CC and 1991 CC are 'arguable', meaning that I'm not saying he absolutely 100 % wasn't the best player, but it is, as you said, up for debate. In 1984 John Tonelli was named the tournament MVP and in 1991 it was Bill Ranford. Whether 1991 should count or not (i.e. due to his injury), I don't know. WJHC I'll leave to someone who is better-informed.

Yes, the Great One had some big games in the 1982 WC, and he got better and more efficient as the games got tougher & more important, but still I don't think it was enough to make him the best forward/player in the tournament; Viktor Shalimov was named the best forward, and there were the likes of Makarov and Kapustin who were more consistent, I think. Fetisov was dynamite on defense. I'm hearing arguments like "it was a totally different situation for Gretzky!", but we were talking about whether he was the best in the tournament or not. If my memory serves me right, Bill Barber and Gretzky formed a nice tandem in the WC. Bobby Clarke was awful. It was during the 1982 WC, I think, when Anatoly Tarasov praised Gretzky's 'hockey intelligence', calling him "the smartest player I've ever seen" or something like that.

I hope this isn't Gretzky-bashing :sarcasm:
 
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habsfanatics*

Registered User
May 20, 2012
5,051
1
Here's an even better bank pass against the Sharks in OT when Gretzky was playing for LA...
At 1:05:



Absolutely sick and impossible to predict, even today. He did things others couldn't even dream of and he did it during live play.
 

habsfanatics*

Registered User
May 20, 2012
5,051
1
Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else because nobody else played in a bubble! Nobody in history had a league bend over so far as Gretzky. It is one of the most embarrassing aspects of being a hockey fa, kmowing the league whored for Gretz.

Wnat to hide behind the net? Yes, sir! We'll move them out to give you more room!

Can't take ANY contact? No problem, we'll have our officials instruct teams before you play. Then we'll penalize any close brushes, you call, sir.

Wayne Gretzky was so coddled by the league that he played until he was too old, despite being a slightly built guy without wheels.

Where is Wayne now? Why isn't he President of the Player's Union? Well, he never played the game and everybody knows it.

If Wayne had ever played a game without tucking his shirt in to be recognized or a shift without yapping to the ref to watch him, he'd be in a wheelchair. I do not believe Gretzky in his prime could survive a period in today's league. Not the way the game is called, now. It is certain he would never finish a playoff game, much less a series!

Ever wonder why Gretz had to court Howe? It's because he never earned any respect from the older players. The greatest crybaby in the history of the game doesn't sound like a title the old boys revered, does it?

I'd hate to have had to read your other 2500 posts. :laugh:
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,758
4,588
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else because nobody else played in a bubble! Nobody in history had a league bend over so far as Gretzky. It is one of the most embarrassing aspects of being a hockey fa, kmowing the league whored for Gretz.

Wnat to hide behind the net? Yes, sir! We'll move them out to give you more room!

Can't take ANY contact? No problem, we'll have our officials instruct teams before you play. Then we'll penalize any close brushes, you call, sir.

Wayne Gretzky was so coddled by the league that he played until he was too old, despite being a slightly built guy without wheels.

Where is Wayne now? Why isn't he President of the Player's Union? Well, he never played the game and everybody knowis it.

If Wayne had ever played a game without tucking his shirt in to be recognized or a shift without yapping to the ref to watch him, he'd be in a wheelchair. I do not believe Gretzky in his prime could survive a period in today's league. Not the way the game is called, now. It is certain he would never finish a playoff game, much less a series!

Ever wonder why Gretz had to court Howe? It's because he never earned any respect from the older players. The greatest crybaby in the history of the game doesn't sound like a title the old boys revered, does it?

Did they open an internet terminal in a mental asylum? :shakehead
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,521
3,360
Here's an even better bank pass against the Sharks in OT when Gretzky was playing for LA...
At 1:05:

Those two are basically the same play by Gretzky. It is nice to have the video evidence showing that it was the type of thing he definitely did on purpose pretty often.

Great to see some of these old plays again.

Gretzky really was on a whole different level..
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,080
7,132
Regina, SK
Did they open an internet terminal in a mental asylum? :shakehead

this might be that goalie-turned cab driver from the commercial. Mats Sundin exposed a weak stick hand. But that was just the final straw. Before that it was a decade of being terrorized by Wayne. Last I heard, the guy ended up in the psych ward.
 

King Woodballs

Captain Awesome
Sep 25, 2007
39,377
7,401
Your Mind
Gretzky saw the ice better than anyone else because nobody else played in a bubble! Nobody in history had a league bend over so far as Gretzky. It is one of the most embarrassing aspects of being a hockey fa, kmowing the league whored for Gretz.

Wnat to hide behind the net? Yes, sir! We'll move them out to give you more room!

Can't take ANY contact? No problem, we'll have our officials instruct teams before you play. Then we'll penalize any close brushes, you call, sir.

Wayne Gretzky was so coddled by the league that he played until he was too old, despite being a slightly built guy without wheels.

Where is Wayne now? Why isn't he President of the Player's Union? Well, he never played the game and everybody knows it.

If Wayne had ever played a game without tucking his shirt in to be recognized or a shift without yapping to the ref to watch him, he'd be in a wheelchair. I do not believe Gretzky in his prime could survive a period in today's league. Not the way the game is called, now. It is certain he would never finish a playoff game, much less a series!

Ever wonder why Gretz had to court Howe? It's because he never earned any respect from the older players. The greatest crybaby in the history of the game doesn't sound like a title the old boys revered, does it?

People should have to pass a test before they get internet access....

So much fail here, I don't even know where to start
 

pigpen65

Registered User
Jul 25, 2011
3,921
901
The best argument for Gretzky still being productive in the current NHL are his 130 points in 93-94. He was still productive into the era of butterfly goaltenders and increased clutching and grabbing.
 

CarlWinslow

@hiphopsicles
Jan 25, 2010
7,734
140
Winnipeg
Those two are basically the same play by Gretzky. It is nice to have the video evidence showing that it was something he definitely the type of thing he did on purpose pretty often.

Great to see some of these old plays again.

Gretzky really was on a whole different level..

Yeah, these bank passes are absurd. Just amazing stuff. I wish we had some of this footage in better quality.
 

CarlWinslow

@hiphopsicles
Jan 25, 2010
7,734
140
Winnipeg
Here is the other one you're asking for.

At 12:15



I wish I could find this goal at regular speed (non slow motion) on the rush. If anyone has this game (or highlights of it), please post!


Yup, that's the one. Its ridiculous.

The funny thing is, in response to the person claiming he wasn't allowed to be hit, the video you posted shows numerous examples of him getting hit.
 
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