Why they traded Hall (article)

shoop

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Jul 6, 2008
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i've only watched several games this year of the devils and i can see a whole bunch of "subtle" things hall is doing better. definitely better buy in as far as engaging in all three zones. making the right plays much more often and less stupid and selfish turnovers.

i think i even said at the time of the trade that i wouldn't be surprisd if hall changes as a player for the better in nj and become more professional.

It's sad that Hall wouldn't make those changes here. But he wasn't open to being coached as an Oiler. So be it.

A first round beat down by the Lightning ain't all that. I'm happier with the Oilers last two seasons than what the Devils have done.
 
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booyakasha

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bucks_oil

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Aug 25, 2005
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fair post. and i'm sure all the losing and poor handling of the organization did partly affect his attitude and i highly agree the management is partly to blame. as one of the better players hall needed to handle that better but you're right he was young and there was not much veteran help. but the fact that guys like ference, scrivens klef etc torched the guy in the media tells me hall was definitely partly to blame... or at least the team tried to move in the right direction by trying to build a culture even with questionable talent and hall did not want to buy in.

i've only watched several games this year of the devils and i can see a whole bunch of "subtle" things hall is doing better. definitely better buy in as far as engaging in all three zones. making the right plays much more often and less stupid and selfish turnovers.

i think i even said at the time of the trade that i wouldn't be surprisd if hall changes as a player for the better in nj and become more professional.

Agree with all of that. And I think Scrivens, Ference, etc... all saw in Hall a guy who wasn't really a team leader, but an individual. That's not a criticism of character though. Hall was brought up to be a singular offensive threat... to be the spear... to drive the play. It always takes guys like that some time to learn the subtlety's of when to make the safe play... and what actually is the safe play. Who the heck wants to dump the puck, or chip it out, in when you are used to carrying it on your stick?

The problem came when he was ALSO thrust into a leadership role. Then ADD on top of that the fact that Hall HATED to lose. An admirable trait, but not so admirable by veteran, defensive minded teammates who DO GET IT when it comes to how those little plays, those bad decisions add up and lead to losses. Hall also had a BAD HABIT of swearing when we were scored upon... unless he knew it was his fault... in which case he'd get quiet and embarrassed. I"m sure he didn't mean anything by either of those actions except... I want to win... but teammates may have interpreted it differently. You can see how they might have thought: he gets mad and vocal when its my fault, but keeps quiet and takes no responsibility when it is his...

These are the little lessons players need to be able to learn outside of the spotlight... especially alpha, hothead types like Hall and Subban... when you are young you sometime aren't aware of how others interpret your actions. You have all the best intentions but your actions can be misconstrued.
 

GameChanger

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I've followed Markus Nutivaara's career quite closely, and at some point I was hoping the Oilers would try to get him from CBJ. This year he scored 23 points (+13) in 61 games despite pretty low minutes on the ice. I'm not sure the difference to Adam Larsson is that much really, so it hurts the price the Oilers had to pay was Hall.

What I wanted to say here is it would help the Oilers so much if they could find this kind of players once in a while. Nuti is just one example to show there are players that could help the team without having to pay a massive price for it, you just need to be able to find it. You can't count on using your assets and best players as the only ways to aquire talent.

Jani Hakanpää (FEL, Kärpät) has very different profile. While Nutivaara was amazing with the puck already in the FEL and national teams, Hakanpää is a huge guy who's the boss in every situation on the ice. That's why he won't fill the same role as Nutivaara, but I think he could be a great addition for a low cost. An annoying player to play against, just because he's made of stone and doesn't have weaknesses.
 

surixon

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Who delivers the messge is often times far more important then the message itself.

Even if Oiler management was delivering the same message for most of his tenure do you really fault him for him not listening. Do you expect him to listen to management about accountability and professionalism when they had little credibility and didn't conduct themselves in the most professional manner and where never held accountable. I know i wouldn't take the message seriously coming from people who don't practice what they preach.

The message in large part was received by Hall in NJ due to Hall trusting their management team. He is even asked in that conversation by sharo if he trusts him. That is a manager that understands that if he wants to get the most out of his player he needs to be accountable to player as well. It' a two way street.
 

bone

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Who delivers the messge is often times far more important then the message itself.

Even if Oiler management was delivering the same message for most of his tenure do you really fault him for him not listening. Do you expect him to listen to management about accountability and professionalism when they had little credibility and didn't conduct themselves in the most professional manner and where never held accountable. I know i wouldn't take the message seriously coming from people who don't practice what they preach.

The message in large part was received by Hall in NJ due to Hall trusting their management team. He is even asked in that conversation by sharo if he trusts him. That is a manager that understands that if he wants to get the most out of his player he needs to be accountable to player as well. It' a two way street.

No I wouldn't fault him if the message came from Lowe/MacT/etc. However, Chiarelli and McLellan were only one year into their tenure and Chia had taken a team to a Stanley Cup and Stanley Cup finalist within the past decade rather than 3 decades ago. You'd think he'd be willing to listen to them if the message was delivered properly.
 

surixon

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No I wouldn't fault him if the message came from Lowe/MacT/etc. However, Chiarelli and McLellan were only one year into their tenure and Chia had taken a team to a Stanley Cup and Stanley Cup finalist within the past decade rather than 3 decades ago. You'd think he'd be willing to listen to them if the message was delivered properly.

It takes time to repair trust and imo there was a lack of it on both sides. One year isn't sufficient imo especially when the team results where the previous six seasons. Had the new regime been a bit more patient I think Hall would have rebounded and fallen in line.
 

BigFuzzyDice

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No I wouldn't fault him if the message came from Lowe/MacT/etc. However, Chiarelli and McLellan were only one year into their tenure and Chia had taken a team to a Stanley Cup and Stanley Cup finalist within the past decade rather than 3 decades ago. You'd think he'd be willing to listen to them if the message was delivered properly.

But... Those guys from back in the day know a little something about winning, And now a whole lot about losing.
 

Bryanbryoil

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But... Those guys from back in the day know a little something about winning, And now a whole lot about losing.

The big thing that I remember is Todd saying that first year that they wanted to see the guys play hard in spite of the teams record. Hall proceeded to play some of the worst hockey of his career at that point. If he's mad for being dealt he should be mad that for probably the first time in his career he didn't seem to be giving 100% and it probably helped him out the door as much as all of the perceived locker room stuff. Ultimately he probably felt like he was above such things because he was Taylor Hall face of the franchise until Connor came along. It's too bad he didn't mature quicker but what's done is done.
 

McNuge

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The big thing that I remember is Todd saying that first year that they wanted to see the guys play hard in spite of the teams record. Hall proceeded to play some of the worst hockey of his career at that point. If he's mad for being dealt he should be mad that for probably the first time in his career he didn't seem to be giving 100% and it probably helped him out the door as much as all of the perceived locker room stuff. Ultimately he probably felt like he was above such things because he was Taylor Hall face of the franchise until Connor came along. It's too bad he didn't mature quicker but what's done is done.

Yup, and his comments after the end of the season, after the top player and D were out all year, sure didn't help his case either.
 

shoop

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If he's mad for being dealt he should be mad that for probably the first time in his career he didn't seem to be giving 100% and it probably helped him out the door as much as all of the perceived locker room stuff. Ultimately he probably felt like he was above such things because he was Taylor Hall face of the franchise until Connor came along. It's too bad he didn't mature quicker but what's done is done.

That's an excellent summation with the biggest problem with Hall and the people who hate the trade.

How do you factor need to mature in a trade? I don't know if Hall would have ever grown up here.
 

Spawn

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That's an excellent summation with the biggest problem with Hall and the people who hate the trade.

How do you factor need to mature in a trade? I don't know if Hall would have ever grown up here.
We don't know he wouldn't have. It's conjecture. Garbage used by people who now need a new way to justify the trade now that it has become abundantly clear we got absolutely bent over in terms of quality of player.

Here is what we know definitively: One player is a likely Hart candidate who has now finished top 10 in league scoring three times in his career. Two of them happened here. A top 5 player at his position in the league.

The other is a #3 defensive d-man who has no offensive acumen in his game.

It's not "too bad Hall didn't mature earlier"

It's too bad we have the worst GM in the league who has a lengthy track record of trading young elite forwards for bad returns.

Hall
Seguin
Wheeler
Kessel

All traded by Chiarelli. None of them for good returns. The Kessel deal ended up working out because the Bruins were lucky enough to have the Leafs be a garbage team.
 
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BigFuzzyDice

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That's an excellent summation with the biggest problem with Hall and the people who hate the trade.

How do you factor need to mature in a trade? I don't know if Hall would have ever grown up here.

It's factored in by 6 million dollar winger for a 4 million dollar defenseman. Or as it is known around here. Hall for Lars one for one... no top ups.
 

bone

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We don't know he wouldn't have. It's conjecture. Garbage used by people who now need a new way to justify the trade now that it has become abundantly clear we got absolutely bent over in terms of quality of player.

Here is what we know definitively: One player is a likely Hart candidate who has now finished top 10 in league scoring three times in his career. Two of them happened here. A top 5 player at his position in the league.

The other is a #3 defensive d-man who has no offensive acumen in his game.

That's always going to be the thing even with those somewhat in the middle as I am. I don't hate that Hall was traded. I don't hate that Larsson was part of the package that came for Hall. But I do hate that somehow they weren't able to get at least some kind of kicker to the deal. Even a conditional kicker would have been better. Do you think Jersey would have said "No" to a conditional first rounder as an add in if Hall wins the Hart within two years? Or something of a condition where we'd get something if the team makes the playoffs with Hall leading them in scoring?
 

shoop

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We don't know he wouldn't have. It's conjecture. Garbage used by people who now need a new way to justify the trade now that it has become abundantly clear we got absolutely bent over in terms of quality of player.

There are multiple other threads for venting hatred against Chiarelli.

At the time of the trade I supported it and I still do. When the trade was made I stated that I agreed that in pure "hockey" terms the Devils got the better player but there was certainly a chemistry/inside the locker room component to it.

Year one after the trade it wasn't clear the Oilers lost in terms of quality of player. Year two it is. What will it look like after year three?
 

MaxR11

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The big thing that I remember is Todd saying that first year that they wanted to see the guys play hard in spite of the teams record. Hall proceeded to play some of the worst hockey of his career at that point. If he's mad for being dealt he should be mad that for probably the first time in his career he didn't seem to be giving 100% and it probably helped him out the door as much as all of the perceived locker room stuff. Ultimately he probably felt like he was above such things because he was Taylor Hall face of the franchise until Connor came along. It's too bad he didn't mature quicker but what's done is done.

absolutely. hall completely checked out towards the second half of 2015-16. i won't get into details i heard of.
 

MaxR11

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Agree with all of that. And I think Scrivens, Ference, etc... all saw in Hall a guy who wasn't really a team leader, but an individual. That's not a criticism of character though. Hall was brought up to be a singular offensive threat... to be the spear... to drive the play. It always takes guys like that some time to learn the subtlety's of when to make the safe play... and what actually is the safe play. Who the heck wants to dump the puck, or chip it out, in when you are used to carrying it on your stick?

The problem came when he was ALSO thrust into a leadership role. Then ADD on top of that the fact that Hall HATED to lose. An admirable trait, but not so admirable by veteran, defensive minded teammates who DO GET IT when it comes to how those little plays, those bad decisions add up and lead to losses. Hall also had a BAD HABIT of swearing when we were scored upon... unless he knew it was his fault... in which case he'd get quiet and embarrassed. I"m sure he didn't mean anything by either of those actions except... I want to win... but teammates may have interpreted it differently. You can see how they might have thought: he gets mad and vocal when its my fault, but keeps quiet and takes no responsibility when it is his...

These are the little lessons players need to be able to learn outside of the spotlight... especially alpha, hothead types like Hall and Subban... when you are young you sometime aren't aware of how others interpret your actions. You have all the best intentions but your actions can be misconstrued.

haha, yup, perceptive as far as some on ice things hall did to draw the ire of teammates. slamming his stick against the boards as he shifts off after a linemate made a bad pass to him earlier. you just flatout can't do that no matter how pissed you are. the thing is these things hurt the rest of the players. they start to grip the stick tighter and are more on edge to try and not make mistakes... in turn you make more mistakes when you don't feel loose and confident. i really think Yak played that way. and it's no secret hall and yak may not have gotten along.

though i beg to differ in the thinking that scrivs and especially ference were not condemning hall's character. at least in ference's case, if you read all his quotes throughout the years it's a fairly clear shot and allusion to hall's character as the main theme of part of what ailed this team.
 

MaxR11

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That's always going to be the thing even with those somewhat in the middle as I am. I don't hate that Hall was traded. I don't hate that Larsson was part of the package that came for Hall. But I do hate that somehow they weren't able to get at least some kind of kicker to the deal. Even a conditional kicker would have been better. Do you think Jersey would have said "No" to a conditional first rounder as an add in if Hall wins the Hart within two years? Or something of a condition where we'd get something if the team makes the playoffs with Hall leading them in scoring?

i know it sounds crazy now but i think NJ was one of only few team willing to take a chance on hall. i strongly believe it was well known around the league that this guy was a bit of a negative presence (don't wanna use the C word) that also did not like to play the right way. sure he gets points but does he make your team better? answer now is yes but i strongly believe that was much more questionable 2 years ago (as far as what most teams thought about hall). and i bet chia and the oilers were actually ECSTATIC to be able to get larsson for hall at the time because like i said.... i truly don't think he was that coveted at that time.
 

Bryanbryoil

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i truly don't think he was that coveted at that time.

I think that is a fair comment. As dumb as many point Chia out to be, what of the other GM's that didn't pounce on the opportunity? Snow said no to Hamonic (let that sink in), etc. Hall was not viewed as the stud that was a two time top 10 scorer at the time of his trade. He was rightly or wrongly considered a part of the problem here and the losing culture that plagued us. Sadly the values of all of our useful players took a hit due to our failures as a team.
 
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Spawn

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I think that is a fair comment. As dumb as many point Chia out to be, what of the other GM's that didn't pounce on the opportunity? Snow said no to Hamonic (let that sink in), etc. Hall was not viewed as the stud that was a two time top 10 scorer at the time of his trade. He was rightly or wrongly considered a part of the problem here and the losing culture that plagued us. Sadly the values of all of our useful players took a hit due to our failures as a team.
If Hall's value was low at the time than you don't trade him. It's as simple as that.
 
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Bryanbryoil

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If Hall's value was low at the time than you don't trade him. It's as simple as that.

The whole team's value was low and the move at least for a season got us turned around. If the rumors of Hall being an issue in the room were true then that has to be weighed in at least a little. No player is above the team.
 
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Mr Positive

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If Hall's value was low at the time than you don't trade him. It's as simple as that.
the value would never have improved if the team didn't get the upgrade on defense though. We would not have made the playoffs last year, and Hall would have been second fiddle to McDavid and probably Draisaitl too.

There's just no way that Hall would have had the kind of season he had this year with the Devils if he stayed here. Not only is there that 2nd fiddle aspect here, the Devils had a great defense after they added Vatanen, along with other guys maturing.
 

Spawn

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the value would never have improved if the team didn't get the upgrade on defense though. We would not have made the playoffs last year, and Hall would have been second fiddle to McDavid and probably Draisaitl too.

There's just no way that Hall would have had the kind of season he had this year with the Devils if he stayed here. Not only is there that 2nd fiddle aspect here, the Devils had a great defense after they added Vatanen, along with other guys maturing.
Same old tired argument. Hall had that type of season here multiple times.

Maybe he would have played 2nd fiddle. Or maybe we'd have clicked with McDavid if given more than ~4 games. Or maybe he and Draisaitl would have formed a dynamic line that would have been impossible for other teams to match up against while also trying to deal with McDavid.

So many conclusions were drawn by the lot of the Hall haters based on him having a poor ~25 games to end his last season here. As if it was somehow proof that he had to go and that he never could have done more here. Doubly frustrating because of the endless opo

As for upgrading on defense, funny how it was only the Oilers who needed to get absolutely raked over the coals to upgrade their defense. You mentioned the Devils. They added a top 4 puck moving RHD for a 2nd/3rd line C. We added a #3 defensive d-man for a world class player.

It's just amazing to me. Chiarelli pulled the exact same BS type of deals with the Bruins. Why do some Oiler fans think this deal somehow stands apart from all the other garbage Chiarelli has done in his career to make it not garbage?
 
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Spawn

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The whole team's value was low and the move at least for a season got us turned around. If the rumors of Hall being an issue in the room were true then that has to be weighed in at least a little. No player is above the team.
It's reductionist to pin that sole trade on turning our year around for that season. Much more likely was Talbot being a top 5 goalie in the world for the season and McDavid and Draisaitl having more points than any other tandem in the league. Yes Larsson was part of it. He's a very good player. But teams manage to add good d-men like Larsson all the time for less than what we gave up. If you can't get Adam Larsson for something less than Hall than do something different. If that's too "hard" for our GM, than he's not good at his job.
 
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Bryanbryoil

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Same old tired argument. Hall had that type of season here multiple times.

Maybe he would have played 2nd fiddle. Or maybe we'd have clicked with McDavid if given more than ~4 games. Or maybe he and Draisaitl would have formed a dynamic line that would have been impossible for other teams to match up against while also trying to deal with McDavid.

So many conclusions were drawn by the lot of the Hall haters based on him having a poor ~25 games to end his last season here. As if it was somehow proof that he had to go and that he never could have done more here. Doubly frustrating because of the endless opo

As for upgrading on defense, funny how it was only the Oilers who needed to get absolutely raked over the coals to upgrade their defense. You mentioned the Devils. They added a top 4 puck moving RHD for a 2nd/3rd line C. We added a #3 defensive d-man for a world class player.

It's just amazing to me. Chiarelli pulled the exact same BS type of deals with the Bruins. Why do some Oiler fans think this deal somehow stands apart from all the other garbage Chiarelli has done in his career to make it not garbage?

He had the Biosteel camp, ALL of preseason and whatever he played with Connor in the regular season. The chemistry was not there because Hall didn't adapt his game to the better player. Look at Drai and Nuge, it didn't take them long to gel with Connor. IMO Hall and Drai proved to be good together so that would've been a relatively safe bet to continue.
 

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