Why retooling is the best option for the Habs

Ozmodiar

Registered User
Oct 18, 2017
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Screen Shot 2018-04-16 at 11.09.16 AM.png
 

mariolemieux66

Registered User
Sep 17, 2008
16,315
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Vancouver
I know it sucks not to be in the playoffs, i know it sucks to think that a rebuild means at least 3 years of missing them. I know its tempting to throw money at Stastny and trading for ROR just to make the playoffs since anything can happen. What this team needs is clear as day when you look at other organizations and its a full rebuild which means 5 years without playoffs.
 

habsgirl5000

Registered User
Jul 15, 2017
2,678
1,868
There’s no reason to believe that both players won’t return to form next season.

your dreaming....that is just wishful thinking

Last season Price finished 3rd in Vezina voting. Weber finished 6th in Norris Trophy voting and had 16 points in 26 games

i dont really care what they have done in the past.....our games are not played in the past, they are played in the future
 

Doc McKenna

A new era 2021
Jan 5, 2009
11,812
11,733
If the Habs address the centre position they can easily compete with a team like Toronto. Toronto is actually a good example, as they have a absolute brutal defence, but finished 3rd in the atlantic. Montreal's D that I have listed is superior to Toronto's. Addressing the centres with this wing group including Drouin,would compete with Toronto's forwards. Habs win the goalie duel.

I hear ya on the Stastny contract. Im weary on that as well because im afraid of term. If its a short term deal then im not concerned.
Our d is a trainwreck. It is literally weber away from bottom 5 otherwise bottom 10 even with weber. Our offence is one of the worst so I don't know how we can just assume to leap 10-15 teams and be a playoff team.
 

habsfan909

Registered User
Feb 20, 2018
964
959
No you’re right. Shouldn’t have said a good chance. Moreso that 4th best odds isn’t bad. When you look at all the percentages. There’s not a huge gap. But you are correct, 8.5% is not really a “good” chance. Really none of the odds for any team are good.
I want to win the lottery as much as anyone... but realistically Dahlin will not be our saviour. Bergevin isn't that lucky haha
 

Doc McKenna

A new era 2021
Jan 5, 2009
11,812
11,733
Michael McCarron could possible crack the line up next year. How is that something to look forward to? Anybody here really think he ends up being anything more than an average 4c? I don't even think he becomes that.
If mac cracks the lineup it means we didn't get any help at C and didn't resign pleks(not that I want to) ALONG with some injuries.
 

Laurentide

Registered User
Mar 24, 2018
3,246
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Edmonton, Alberta
Should the Habs try to re-tool? No, of course not. They're nowhere near good enough to re-tool and accomplish anything more than a playoff spot and a first round exit. What they need is a full-on tear-down and re-build.

However...

Will the Habs try to re-tool? Yes, of course they will. Why? Because the mandate isn't to win Cups anymore but merely to make the playoffs and secure some extra revenue for the ownership group. Additionally, they have a lame-duck GM who needs to win now in order to stay employed beyond this Christmas. So re-tool it is!
 

Scriptor

Registered User
Jan 1, 2014
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Most people wouldn't call the Habs defence serviceable either. I'll just agree to disagree I guess.

But maybe the Isles have a re-tool plan in place to make their D serviceable next year. Tavares is probably drooling at that thought.

I don't see where you disagree. BOTH Ds can be short of being serviceable.
 

gillyguzzler

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
2,966
701
Ontario
I've said it often that, for the forward group, there aren't many players that I dislike. Too many of them aren't slotted properly and they're too small as a group.

Gallaguer - love him as the second line RW and on the second PP.
Byron - love him as the third line LW and on the PK.
Galchenyuk - love him but not with JDLR and Lekhonen.
Lekhonen - love him as the third line RW.
Danault - love him as the third line C and on the PK.
Drouin - great as the second line LW and on PP.
Shaw - too much coin but effective on the third line, maybe even fourth.
JDLR - 4th line center.
Deslauriers - love him on the 4th.
Hudon - love him on the 3rd.
Paccioretty - one bad season. Would love to see him play top LW with a real #1 center.
Scherbak - sometimes love him right up to second line RW, sometimes think he's better off in the AHL for another year.

Anyways, all this to say that we have too many small third line players that I actually like and we're missing a 1st line center and a 2nd line center and we're gold, gold I tells ya.
 

SakuKoivu11

Registered User
Jun 29, 2017
2,586
1,772
Five years ago if we added a 1C, we would be a contender because of our mix of youth, depth, and assets. We still had Therrien coaching but maybe he could be ignored. With a younger Markov, faster Subban, and a healthy Price, adding one centre would make a difference.

Today? Not so much. The coaching still sucks, they need more than one centre, the defence is embarrassing, there isn't a single quality LD on the club, many players are injury prone, the youth isn't as good as it was, and the best years of Price are likely gone.

That's why adding a 1C seems like a fix but it isn't. It's only fixing one problem. This team is fundamentally broken and rotten to the core. It needs to be completely overhauled. That takes years.


Had we trade Subban for a number one Center it would have made us better. But we got an older defenseman with less skill is beyond my understanding for who’s running the team.
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
10,937
5,387
Having no replacement for Markov was a big reason we struggled. The thing is that hasn't changed, we still have no replacement for Markov so unless we find a way to get an elite puck moving defenceman a retool won't work.

I think some of the confusion might be in terms used. You can say we only need to retool because we are missing only two players, a #1 C and a #1 D. The problem is adding say Tavares and Dahlin isn't what I would consider a retool. That's a rebuild, as the core of your team and the players you build around have completely changed.
 

Scriptor

Registered User
Jan 1, 2014
7,776
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Having no replacement for Markov was a big reason we struggled. The thing is that hasn't changed, we still have no replacement for Markov so unless we find a way to get an elite puck moving defenceman a retool won't work.

I think some of the confusion might be in terms used. You can say we only need to retool because we are missing only two players, a #1 C and a #1 D. The problem is adding say Tavares and Dahlin isn't what I would consider a retool. That's a rebuild, as the core of your team and the players you build around have completely changed.

I think that some of the confusion right be in the actual meaning VS the perceived meanings of the terms actually used.

"Completely" might be an overstatement just used to make your point, for example. Unless "Core" to you is strictly two players?

You know, a retool does imply adding a few pieces to the core and doesn't mean you can't improve your core in the process.

What you are alluding to (with no impactful changes) is a "Tweak".

So, there you go, posters are incoherent because nobody attributes the same meanings to "Rebuild", "Retool" and "Tweak". For sure, there can be some overlap between those three examples, though...
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
10,937
5,387
I think that some of the confusion right be in the actual meaning VS the perceived meanings of the terms actually used.

"Completely" might be an overstatement just used to make your point, for example. Unless "Core" to you is strictly two players?

You know, a retool does imply adding a few pieces to the core and doesn't mean you can't improve your core in the process.

What you are alluding to (with no impactful changes) is a "Tweak".

So, there you go, posters are incoherent because nobody attributes the same meanings to "Rebuild", "Retool" and "Tweak". For sure, there can be some overlap between those three examples, though...

Your right the meaning of the words are subjective and that's why there's some disagreement.

Adding Tavares isn't just adding a core player, it's adding a guy who will be your best player, similar with Dahlin except he'd be #2 behind Tavares. When adding 2 "core" players involves adding your 2 best or at worst 2 out of 3 best players then it's not really accurate to say we only need to add a couple core players. We need to add two players who are some of the top players in the league. Currently the team is built around Price/Weber/Pacioretty. That would change to be Tavares/Dahlin/Price, that's a huge change.
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
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You need pick to connect....don't have to be a top 5 pick.
McAvoy, Carlo and Pastrnak for the Bruins
Point, Gourde and Johnson for Tampa

Which picks are the most likely to ''connect''?

This year's draft is good example....if the Habs pick 4th, they will get a good player, but he's probably won't be what the Habs need (Center or Off. LHD).

Unless there's a trade, after this year's draft, the Habs will have picked 8 players in the top 2 rounds in 2 years. How much more prospects is really needed?

6 of those picks will have been in the 2nd round, after we didn't draft in the 2nd round for 4 years. Only 1 of our seconds since Bergevin has been here has amounted to anything that looks like an NHLer: Lehkonen. Fact is we'll have drafted twice in the 1st round in 2 years. NYR could draft 7 times in the first round between last year and next year, by comparison.

St-Louis are building with lower than 20 overall (Thomas, Kyrou, Parayko, Fabbri)
For crying out load, Tampa are getting top quality player from undrafted player.

For me it's all about getting what the teams needs.
Trading Price, Weber and what not will only make even more holes to fill and after 7 years, the Habs can't even filled the holes at center....even with 3 pick in the top 5. How the **** they will be able to fills even more holes.

Of course....having a dumb management is creating this mess.

Lol, St Louis. Are modelling ourselves after St Louis now?
 

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
24,281
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Quebec City, Canada
I think that some of the confusion right be in the actual meaning VS the perceived meanings of the terms actually used.

"Completely" might be an overstatement just used to make your point, for example. Unless "Core" to you is strictly two players?

You know, a retool does imply adding a few pieces to the core and doesn't mean you can't improve your core in the process.

What you are alluding to (with no impactful changes) is a "Tweak".

So, there you go, posters are incoherent because nobody attributes the same meanings to "Rebuild", "Retool" and "Tweak". For sure, there can be some overlap between those three examples, though...

A rebuild means you throw the complete team in the garbage and start again. Can't rebuild if you don't destroy first. A rebuild would imply trading Weber, Price and Patch.

rebuild
verb
build (something) again after it has been damaged or destroyed.

A retool means you change some of the tools for new (and hopefully better) ones but you keep the toolbox. Getting Tavares, drafting Dahlin and trading patch for a 2nd line center would be a retool.

retool
verb
equip (a factory) with new or adapted tools.

Tweak
verb
improve (a mechanism or system) by making fine adjustments to it.

A tweak implies very fine adjustments. If you're getting or replacing core pieces it's not a tweak. A tweak would be trading Benn and Schlemko away and using Juulsen and Lernout as a 3rd pairing.

A retool might work. A tweak wont. We need to get core pieces. Keeping what we already have and not rebuild would make sense only if we can get the missing pieces in the next 2 years if not then just rebuild. Stastny is a tweak not a retool (at this point he's not much better than Danault). Tavares would be a retool.
 

Miller Time

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
22,837
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Draft Dahlin
Sign Tavares
Trade Patches for RNH or ROR (with whatever pick/prospects sweetners from either side needed to make the deal)
Dump Shaw/Alzner w/o taking salary back

we're due from some good luck, aren't we???

Drouin - Tavares - Gallagher
Galch - RNH/ROR - Scherbak
Lekhonen - Danault - Hudon
Byron - JDR - Deslauriers

Dhalin - Weber
Mete - Petry
Benn - Juulsen
Reilly

Price
Lingren
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

Hutson Hawk
Jun 12, 2007
35,310
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Hockey Mecca
What evidence do you have to support Price and Weber are on a steep decline?
Why would I Not assume Price and Weber can still produce. The team had an off year, both players battled through injuries. Last season Price finished 3rd in Vezina voting. Weber finished 6th in Norris Trophy voting and had 16 points in 26 games while playing on a fractured foot. There’s no reason to believe that both players won’t return to form next season.

That was WITH Markov.

Don't expect the same without replacing him.
 
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beowulf

Not a nice guy.
Jan 29, 2005
59,359
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Ottawa
Draft Dahlin
Sign Tavares
Trade Patches for RNH or ROR (with whatever pick/prospects sweetners from either side needed to make the deal)
Dump Shaw/Alzner w/o taking salary back

we're due from some good luck, aren't we???

Drouin - Tavares - Gallagher
Galch - RNH/ROR - Scherbak
Lekhonen - Danault - Hudon
Byron - JDR - Deslauriers

Dhalin - Weber
Mete - Petry
Benn - Juulsen
Reilly

Price
Lingren
You live in one hell of a dream world.
 
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G0bias

Registered User
Oct 4, 2007
7,745
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MTL
With this year's draft, the Habs will have a 3rd top 5 pick in 7 years.
Many thinks that adding more of those picks will eventually make the Habs a contender.....really?

How many does we need.....cause Toronto got 4 in the same time frame.

Hey, Boston picked twice in the top 10 in the last 10 years and both of those players are not even with the team anymore.....and they are back at it this year.

How many top pick does Vegas got in their line-up to win that much?

Rebuild and getting tons of picks is equally a pipe dream as getting Tavares, Dahlin and hoping that McCarron will be a good NHLer.

Most if not all rebuild that really worked were not teams tanking for years and getting good pick......they are teams getting 1st overall pick. With the lottery, it's just impossible these days to make sure to get one.

Would be 2nd top5 pick in 7 years; Galchenyuk and this year. Sergachev was 9th ov.

But I disagree with the rest. Had we simply KEPT our players instead of trading them away and signed the players we needed to sign. Drafted one of Debrincat/Girard with the two 2nds instead of giving them away for Shaw. This is what it would look like right now.

Pacioretty - X - Radulov
Debrincat - Galchenyuk - Scherbak
Lehkonen - Danault - Gallagher

Markov - Subban
Sergachev - Petry
Mete - X

And that's not even with a big deadline trade or UFA signing.
Might not be contender caliber yet but it's damn near close. We'd have five legitimate top 6 guys, a #1 franchise PMD and a left side that can actually move the puck.
There's already a WORLD of difference between that and the circus show we iced to start the year.
 

Milhouse40

Registered User
Aug 19, 2010
22,058
24,580
Which picks are the most likely to ''connect''?

6 of those picks will have been in the 2nd round, after we didn't draft in the 2nd round for 4 years. Only 1 of our seconds since Bergevin has been here has amounted to anything that looks like an NHLer: Lehkonen. Fact is we'll have drafted twice in the 1st round in 2 years. NYR could draft 7 times in the first round between last year and next year, by comparison.

Lol, St Louis. Are modelling ourselves after St Louis now?


Which picks are the most likely to ''connect''?
Well let's look at 2010 throught 2016 draft (2017-2018 are too early to tell):

Going only by point production.
Top 7 best picks in 2010: #2-#1-#7-#16-#4-#14-#9
Top 5 best picks in 2011: #2-#58-#1-#104-(#7-#8-#3-#43 are all equals)
Top 7 best picks in 2012: #11-#3-#5-#17-#78-#18-#30
Top 7 best picks in 2013: #1-#6-#2-#5-#4-#9-#14
Top 7 best picks in 2014: #3-#25-#9-#2-#15-#112-#8
Top 7 best picks in 2015: #1-#2-#4-#10-#35-#16-#8

Top 2 picks usually have a higher chances to connect the right way...after that, not so much.

As for St-Louis....a lot of Habs fans were drooling over their prospect. Just like many are drooling over Bjorgstrom in Florida picked at 23. But which team do you think should we model about it?

Pittsburgh? Impossible. That was pure luck.
Boston? Since 2001 they picked only 4 times in the top 10: Hamill, Kessle, Hamilton and Seguin. That help them.
Nashville? Since 2004 they only picke 2 times in the top 10 : Jones and Wilson.

Like i said earlier, there's not ONE recipe to success, there's many. If there's only one recipe, then everybody would do it and have success after doing it.
 
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