Why isn't Pierre Turgeon in the hall of fame?

[Bluesguru]

Gilmour, Oates, Fedorov are definitely better than Turgeon

This is likely a universal truth among regulars here

I would take Gilmour too because of intangibles, but it's a flat "NO Way" on Oates and Federov. Federov didn't even avg a point per gm for career. And if Turgeon was a USA boy like Modano, Turgeon would of already been inducted a long time ago.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Given this boards on top centers project doesn't even include Turgeon in the top 60 you're in the minority for sure

 

[GreatGonzo]

Between the insults you're actually agreeing with me. You should re-read my post.

My Best-Carey

You keep bringing up Blair Macdonald for your point.....Blair Macdonald, who played one year with Gretzky and had a 5 year NHL career.

Why is he being brought into the convo?

Stating 'prime Turgeon played with less high-end talent than prime Oates' isn't an insult to Oates

It actually has nothing to do with the abilities of either player

exactly, which is why the linemates argument shouldn't be used

 

[sr edler]

I would take Gilmour too because of intangibles, but it's a flat "NO Way" on Oates and Federov. Federov didn't even avg a point per gm for career. And if Turgeon was a USA boy like Modano, Turgeon would of already been inducted a long time ago.

Modano was best forward on a team that won back to back Presidents’ Trophies and a Cup. He had Selke defense too.

Fedorov won a Hart, two Selkes, was beast in the playoffs and anchored one of the most dominant modern NHL lines that chased P. Roy out of Montreal.

Pierre Turgeon was just quiet. Perhaps that’s unfair, but in sports you need to show something.

 

[Bluesguru]

Modano was best forward on a team that won back to back Presidents’ Trophies and a Cup. He had Selke defense too.

Fedorov won a Hart, two Selkes, was beast in the playoffs and anchored one of the most dominant modern NHL lines that chased P. Roy out of Montreal.

Pierre Turgeon was just quiet. Perhaps that’s unfair, but in sports you need to show something.

Well said. Modano never had 100 points in a season nor did he ever pump in 58 goals in a season either. Not playing for an elite SC team in his prime definitely works against Pierre. But you make great points, Turgeon for the most was under the radar. You look at a guy like Oates, I tell ya, If he stayed in Detroit, he would of been saddled behind Yzerman forever. Not to mention the Hull & Oates notoriety Adam got to cash in on paid big dividends for him as well. It put him on the map. Pierre was great, but he didn't get the fortune of being on the big stage in his prime. Your point is well taken and that kind of stuff works against Pierre.

 

[Neutrinos]

Modano was best forward on a team that won back to back Presidents’ Trophies and a Cup. He had Selke defense too.

Fedorov won a Hart, two Selkes, was beast in the playoffs and anchored one of the most dominant modern NHL lines that chased P. Roy out of Montreal.

Pierre Turgeon was just quiet. Perhaps that’s unfair, but in sports you need to show something.

Turgeon conducted himself no differently than Lidstrom or Sakic

 

[Neutrinos]

You keep bringing up Blair Macdonald for your point.....Blair Macdonald, who played one year with Gretzky and had a 5 year NHL career.

Why is he being brought into the convo?


exactly, which is why the linemates argument shouldn't be used

If you don't see the relevance of linemates when comparaing a player's production, there's really no point in continuing this discussion with you

 

[frisco]

Pierre Turgeon was just quiet. Perhaps that’s unfair, but in sports you need to show something.

I guess that's the part of the point of the argument. If someone is productive and helps you win without the "flash" or bravado do they become underrated? Are media darlings overrated? Are fans and especially voters swayed by stuff like this? Does dating Anna Kornikova help your team win games? OK, the last question is dumb but it seems what happens on the ice should be the determining factor in evaluation of the effectiveness of the player.

My Best-Carey

 

[frisco]

You keep bringing up Blair Macdonald for your point.....Blair Macdonald, who played one year with Gretzky and had a 5 year NHL career.

Why is he being brought into the convo?


exactly, which is why the linemates argument shouldn't be used

Blair MacDonald is exactly why linemates should be brought into the conversation! If you don't factor in quality of teammates (Gretzky) and era then MacDonald's 90+ point year probably looks better than it should. If you don't factor Hull and Neely into the effectiveness of Oates than you might be overstating his value in the same way.

My Best-Carey

 

[ResilientBeast]

Blair MacDonald is exactly why linemates should be brought into the conversation! If you don't factor in quality of teammates (Gretzky) and era then MacDonald's 90+ point year probably looks better than it should. If you don't factor Hull and Neely into the effectiveness of Oates than you might be overstating his value in the same way.

My Best-Carey

Maybe you should consider the effectiveness of Hull and Neely because of Oates

 

[frisco]

Still, like any other career-based metric, it counts the total value of a player's career, but it doesn't consider how that value is distributed across seasons. What I mean by that is it's generally better for a player to have a more dominant peak...

I don't know if that's as much of a slum dunk as you state. Some would say a consistent producer for a long time who you can rely upon year after year might be more valuable than a guy with a flashy peak but who peters out early and is a question mark year-to-year. If you were drafting a team wouldn't you rather have Ron Francis than Pavel Bure? I guess it's subjective but I'll take the guy with the long career where I can pencil him in for a certain quality of play than a guy who might lead the league in goals if he's healthy and motivated but also is very hit and miss.

My Best-Carey

 

[frisco]

Maybe you should consider the effectiveness of Hull and Neely because of Oates

The point is two elite players together are going to help both players. Isn't it reasonable to say Hull wouldn't have the 70+ goal seasons with Andrew Cassels as setup guy?

My Best-Carey

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

did you seriously just compare pierre turgeon to ron francis?

 

[frisco]

I mean by your logic, Jari Kurri wasn't as good because he was centered by Wayne Gretzky.

So Kurri puts up the same numbers with anyone else as his C? That's hard to believe.

My Best-Carey

 

[frisco]

did you seriously just compare pierre turgeon to ron francis?

If you're talking to me, no. I compared Francis to Pavel Bure.

My Best-Carey

 

[GreatGonzo]

If you don't see the relevance of linemates when comparaing a player's production, there's really no point in continuing this discussion with you

There really is no relevance between Oates and MacDonald.....

Blair MacDonald is exactly why linemates should be brought into the conversation! If you don't factor in quality of teammates (Gretzky) and era then MacDonald's 90+ point year probably looks better than it should. If you don't factor Hull and Neely into the effectiveness of Oates than you might be overstating his value in the same way.

My Best-Carey

and you once again never considered the idea that Hull and Neelys production was boosted because they played with Oates?.... You talk about factors, yet leave that small part out.

MacDonald played 219 games in the NHL, Oates played 1337.....Oates was an elite playmaker, MacDonald wasn't elite at all....

So Kurri puts up the same numbers with anyone else as his C? That's hard to believe.

My Best-Carey

its more of the idea you have that he wouldn't have been an elite player without Playing on Gretzkys wing. He was an amazing player in his own right, but by your standards, he is a product of great linemeates just like MacDonald.....

So once again, your comparing Kurri to MacDonald.

 

[sr edler]

Turgeon conducted himself no differently than Lidstrom or Sakic

Yes, but those players won individual hardware, plus Cups. Sakic Conn Smythe + Hart + Pearson, and Lidström Conn Smythe + 7 Norris Trophies. They were both a step above Turgeon playing ability wise.

 

[frisco]

There really is no relevance between Oates and MacDonald.....

and you once again never considered the idea that Hull and Neelys production was boosted because they played with Oates?.... You talk about factors, yet leave that small part out.

MacDonald played 219 games in the NHL, Oates played 1337.....Oates was an elite playmaker, MacDonald wasn't elite at all....

its more of the idea you have that he wouldn't have been an elite player without Playing on Gretzkys wing. He was an amazing player in his own right, but by your standards, he is a product of great linemeates just like MacDonald.....

So once again, your comparing Kurri to MacDonald.

No, I'm not comparing the two other than they both benefitted from Gretzky. Are you really denying that they didn't? Anyway, forget about MacDonald, the nuances of that argument obviously escape you if you somehow interpreted that I was saying MacDonald was as good as Oates or Kurri.

And yes Hull was helped by Oates and likewise. What I'm saying is a guy like Turgeon with Scott Young or Derek King as linemates in his best years didn't have that same advantage of having an elite player to play with.

My Best-Carey

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

If you're talking to me, no. I compared Francis to Pavel Bure.

and with this response i am exiting this thread that i probably should have known better than to post in. but i'm not sure you understand, or are willing to own up to, how analogies work.

 

[Neutrinos]

Francis may have been a better defensive player, but I think a strong case could be made for Turgeon as the better offensive player

And all things being equal, I'm not sure a team with prime Francis as their #1 C would be noticeably better than a team with prime Turgeon

 

[ResilientBeast]

Francis may have been a better defensive player, but I think a strong case could be made for Turgeon as the better offensive player

And all things being equal, I'm not sure a team with prime Francis as their #1 C would be noticeably better than a team with prime Turgeon

Was definitely the better defensive player

 

[Sentinel]

1. Turgeon is now compared to Fedorov? For realz?
2. This thread is now 36 pages long.

 

[Killion]

...This thread is now 36 pages long.

.... Why, yes, yes Sentinel. So it is. .... Read every single post. Not because I wanna, but cuz I hafta.

..... Mind.... blown.

 

[frisco]

1. Turgeon is now compared to Fedorov? For realz?
2. This thread is now 36 pages long.

I think if you just take regular season offensive production Turgeon tops Fedorov. Fedorov is the better player all factors considered no question but I'd don't think the act of mentioning Fedorov and Turgeon in the same breath is defamatory to Fedorov or anything.

My Best-Carey

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, I'm not comparing the two other than they both benefitted from Gretzky. Are you really denying that they didn't? Anyway, forget about MacDonald, the nuances of that argument obviously escape you if you somehow interpreted that I was saying MacDonald was as good as Oates or Kurri.

And yes Hull was helped by Oates and likewise. What I'm saying is a guy like Turgeon with Scott Young or Derek King as linemates in his best years didn't have that same advantage of having an elite player to play with.

My Best-Carey

I mean, your the one who brought it up to prove some sort of point and it obviously back fired. Not really my problem.

I understand that, but in the end we will never know what could have been with better teammates....

He had some good-great teammates in Buffalo, Montreal, and STL, it's not like he went his whole career with subpar teammates.