Why Is The Byng A Joke?

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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Nobody respects dirty players. Players with high skill and sportsmanship are held in high regard. Yet, the trophy which rewards these qualities is often snubbed as "not real hardware", even laughed at, and nobody ever has huge discussions over who should win. Why is that? Why is the Lady Byng not an honor to a lot of hockey people? Seems weird. Is it old school mentality that really should have run its course?

The name doesn't help.

My Best-Carey
 

billcook

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Apr 17, 2012
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It has been a joke since players like St. Louis and Datsyuk declined and retired. Now media has no clue and instead of voting by definition of award they choose best offensive player with least amount of pims.

They should let players or coaches vote for Lady Byng Trophy.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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It's a disgrace that Nicklas Lidstrom never won the Byng (especially since Brian Campbell did - during Lidstrom's final season). It was a major accomplishment for him to play so many minutes, and take on such tough defensive assignments, while being penalized so rarely.
 

GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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I mean the term “dirty” goes in many ways. A lot of people respected guys like Messier, Stevens, Chelios, among others. They weren’t always the cleanest players, they were feared as well....but in terms of respect, they definitely had that. But players like Cooke, Torres, Samuelsson, and Lemieux were the players on the end of that spectrum, they were hard to respect.

I think it’s more the context. Like, what qualifies the most “gentlemanly” player? A lot of players display good conduct, a lot of players display good sportsmanship. A majority of the time, it goes to the player with the very little penalty minutes, which means that they have played an overall “clean” game. I think people don’t respect it simply because it’s a weird way to honor someone, at least in my opinion.

I mean does it really matter that a player have less than 10 penalty minutes compared to lets say 20 in a season? Is it really something we need to honor? What’s so
Valuable about it?
 

silkyjohnson50

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Jan 10, 2007
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It's a disgrace that Nicklas Lidstrom never won the Byng (especially since Brian Campbell did - during Lidstrom's final season). It was a major accomplishment for him to play so many minutes, and take on such tough defensive assignments, while being penalized so rarely.

Yeah, there's really no logical explanation for him never winning. His teammate Datsyuk won a bunch of them because he rarely took penalties, but Datsyuk would toe the line from time to time when he played physical and could throw an elbow or questionable hit here and there. Lidstrom never did that. He was the definition of the award.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Nobody respects dirty players. Players with high skill and sportsmanship are held in high regard. Yet, the trophy which rewards these qualities is often snubbed as "not real hardware", even laughed at, and nobody ever has huge discussions over who should win. Why is that? Why is the Lady Byng not an honor to a lot of hockey people? Seems weird. Is it old school mentality that really should have run its course?

The name doesn't help.

My Best-Carey

Ive never heard such expressed, news to me that people would belittle or ridicule that particular award. I mean, Ive heard jokes... like "Ted Lindsay (or take your pick) would never be mistaken for a Lady Byng Candidate" but Ive never heard anyone do anything but praise, admire the recipients, winners. Lady Byng was married to the Viscount of Vimy, a WW1 Hero for Gods Sake so nothing "Wussy" about it. Governor General Canada for a brief period in the 20's... Lady Byng who loved hockey commissioning the trophy in 1924, awarding it herself to Frank Nighbor in its first year.... Thereafter, Frank Boucher won it like 7 or 8yrs over the course of a decade so Lady Byng in conjunction with the NHL actually gave it to him to keep permanently (unfortunately lost in a fire at Bouchers home in 62) & then commissioned another to replace the original in 1935. When she died in 1949, re-named the Lady Byng Memorial Trophy....

So to me, to anyone familiar with the history of that award, I look at it as a "joint award" from the Byngs', from her & her husband who was certainly no Wuss, but absolutely was a Gentleman even through the Hell that was Vimy Ridge and where its often said Canada came together as a country, came of age in that battle. It was the first major for Canada & one of the bloodiest affairs to have ever taken place on any battlefield before or since. It was at Vimy that the Canadian fighter, the soldier, the citizen & sportsman earned his stripes & reputation as being quite possibly the fiercest & most determined nightmare of an enemy any force could ever face. So to me & countless others, the stuff of legend & pride. The Lady Byng, that its nomenclature is feminine just as is Lady Justice, the Stature of Liberty & other major symbols very much a positive. You look at the recipients over the years, these are Class Acts. Distinguished themselves under fire. Talking grit, character, honor, integrity, fight, discipline. No not Holier than Thou but the kind of person one should honor. Absolutely.
 
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BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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I am guilty of thinking the Byng is not a "real award".I put near-zero value to it.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a player being a gentleman (I gained nothing but admiration and respect for Eddie Gerard while doing his biography earlier this winter, he was a great leader and a gentleman through and through).But it's also not true that I have no respect for dirty players.Physical and savage players have their own advantages.A good mix of both makes a team stronger IMO.
 

Canadiens1958

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When the Lady Byng was awarded to Frank Nighbor at the end of the in 1925 it was in appreciation for clean as described above while recognizing an important aspect of hockey - avoiding penalties. This was in an era where a complete minor had to be served.

At the start of the 1956-57 season, a rule change limiting one PP goal per minor penalty lessened the game changing potential of a minor penalty so the Lady Byng Memorial Trophy became less important. Slowly the league drifted thru the Broad Street Bullies era, the Dead Puck Era where getting away with fouls was part of the strategy.

Since the lost labour stoppage season, the consequences of penalties has increased - defensive zone faceoffs, suspensions for certain hits,etc. but the ability to play within the rules has not been recognized accordingly. No hilite reels,no team awards,noend of seasonbonuses.

BTW, the criteria used is not a simple PIMs to points metric, whiners, divers even if rarely penalized do not get recognized.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I am guilty of thinking the Byng is not a "real award".I put near-zero value to it.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a player being a gentleman (I gained nothing but admiration and respect for Eddie Gerard while doing his biography earlier this winter, he was a great leader and a gentleman through and through).But it's also not true that I have no respect for dirty players.Physical and savage players have their own advantages.A good mix of both makes a team stronger IMO.

Well, I find it an interesting Award, far from boring. Particularly so when its given to guys who previously, earlier in their careers were far from being "a Gentlemen on the ice". Stan Mikita for example. Almost always interesting & excellent players. Many my favorites like Camille Henry, Dave Keon, Alex Delvecchio, Jean Ratelle, Marcel Dionne, Mike Bossy, Ron Francis, Rick Middleton, Pavel Datsyuk etc. Its a nice honor. Ive got lots of time for that trophy.... "Savage players"? Depends on your definition of what that is. To me its full on psycho. Its a Boom Boom Geoffrion or Wayne Maki clubbing guys, swinging their sticks.... that sort of thing. Blind Side Hit Artists. Sucker Punchers. Full on Neanderthal. At the elite amateur, Jr & NHL levels, no, sorry, for that I have no time. Usually weeded out of the game early.

Now, if were talking minors and a fight league, totally different animal. Let me put it to you this way; Bobby Clarke lied when he said in explaining his actions after "savagely" breaking Kharlamovs ankle in 72 with his stick, that "I'd have never gotten out of Flin Flon if I hadnt learned how to administer a two hander" because you know what?.... If he hadve' administered a 2 hander like that in Junior & injured the guy, all Hell wouldve broken loose, Clarkes NHL career over before it ever started. Thats savage, thats Caveman & you just dont do that or that kind of thing. Bench clearing brawl back in the day would have ensued & Bobby Clarke would have been sent to the hospital with bigger health issues to be dealing with than Diabetes.

Stan Mikita was also beyond viscous with his stick early in his career, however, he mended his ways, redeemed himself, stopped being a liability to his team & teammates in wracking up the penalties, in excess of 140 one year, a dangerous & reckless menace to his opponents. Had he kept that up, likely wouldve crippled someone or worse, and whats more, the Bell Was Tolling for his head & he knew it. Just a matter of time before it rang & his lights were gunna be put out. You can only get away with that for so long. He was on some serious players Hit Lists. But instead.... turns it around. Reels it in. Thats a good story. Earned the Lady Byng twice, proud of it. One of the all time greatest Hawks, certainly one of the most popular of All Time.
 
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FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
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Nobody respects dirty players. Players with high skill and sportsmanship are held in high regard. Yet, the trophy which rewards these qualities is often snubbed as "not real hardware", even laughed at, and nobody ever has huge discussions over who should win. Why is that? Why is the Lady Byng not an honor to a lot of hockey people? Seems weird. Is it old school mentality that really should have run its course?

The name doesn't help.

My Best-Carey

I've never heard anyone refer to it as a joke, so the premise of this thread is a little bewildering to me.

I think the reason it doesn't garner much discussion in terms of who should win, etc is because this isn't awarded for something is tangible and can really be compared to between players.

An discussion about who's the best defensemen is surely going to spark more conversations and opinions for pretty obvious reasons. Discussions are fuelled by who people think is the best and who's better than who. Discussing who's better than who at being gentlemanly isn't exactly fuel for the fire for a good hockey debate.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I've never heard anyone refer to it as a joke, so the premise of this thread is a little bewildering to me.

I think the reason it doesn't garner much discussion in terms of who should win, etc is because this isn't awarded for something is tangible and can really be compared to between players.

An discussion about who's the best defensemen is surely going to spark more conversations and opinions for pretty obvious reasons. Discussions are fuelled by who people think is the best and who's better than who. Discussing who's better than who at being gentlemanly isn't exactly fuel for the fire for a good hockey debate.

Sure enough... but then the mandate here isnt to always be discussing who's better than who, where someone ranks on a Top 5-10-50 list.... that would be the AM Band here on hf HOH.... so threads like these, FM Band, interesting in as much as it may give some pause for thought, to want to look into the careers of a Billy Burch, a Buddy O'Connor, Dutch Reibel, Andy Hebenton, Bob MacMillan or whomever, names they only trip across in passing.... Understood some do find it boring. Vanilla. Dry as dust. Thats fine. Not all about the hit counts. Not all about the "win". ;)
 

frisco

Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Sep 14, 2017
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I just think the award doesn't get the respect it deserves. Maybe that's just my perception. I admire Byng winners and truly admire those with high skill and sportsmanship. If you ever brought a Byng win as support into the inevitable who's better than who arguments you'd probably get laughed at. I don't know if that's right.

My Best-Carey
 

Howie Hodge

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Sep 16, 2017
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The evolution of The NHL has made the trophy less relevant.

There are many players now who have never, and never will fight. Well not an aggressive "I want a piece of you" type of fight.

When there were fewer teams, dominated ,or entirely composed of Canadian players, there were few players who didn't accept they had to have an edge to play and succeed.

It was during this era that it was quite remarkable that players survived by refraining from that mind set.

So The Lady Byng is no joke; it just isn't something unique to players these days...
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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There are many players now who have never, and never will fight. Well not an aggressive "I want a piece of you" type of fight.

Off-topic, but that makes for a good trivia question - how many Lady Byng winners have dropped the gloves in the NHL?

Quite a few, I think. Mikita fought all the time when he was younger. Bobby Hull had quite a few scraps as well. Middleton, too.

Gretzky fought Neal Broten. Sakic fought Doug Gilmour. Datsyuk fought Scott Niedermayer. I'm pretty sure Kurri fought someone at one point, but I can't recall who.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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I just think the award doesn't get the respect it deserves. Maybe that's just my perception. I admire Byng winners and truly admire those with high skill and sportsmanship. If you ever brought a Byng win as support into the inevitable who's better than who arguments you'd probably get laughed at. I don't know if that's right.

My Best-Carey

Well, interesting comparable with crossover criteria to the Lady Byng is the Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy, awarded to the player who best exemplifies Dedication, Perseverance, Sportsmanship.... so some over-lap there, players who have won both include Jean Ratelle & Butch Goring.... The Masterton however since about the mid 80's has been awarded to players who have overcome illness or injury, though there was the odd player who received it, like Bobby Clarke in 72 having overcome Diabetes to make it to & excel at the NHL level... though I dont know that one could reasonably assert that Bobby "exemplified the aspects of sportsmanship" even in 72 pre-Kharlamov slash & showed his true colors, before the Flyers really started dropping the gloves with Clarke running around starting plenty, finishing little himself....

Others however, Brad Park, Serge Savard, Ed Westfall, Don Luce, Lanny McDonald etc.... they fit the criteria absent having overcome any serious injuries or illnesses and in a considerable number of cases would have or should have also been considered for the Lady Byng at various times in their careers. The Byng awarded to the "player who exhibited the most sportsmanlike level of play & gentlemanly conduct while excelling at the game, playing it at its highest standards", the Masterton of "dedication, perseverance & sportsmanship"... words, criteria that do bleed into one another. Both awards that recognize intangibles, though the Masterton seems to have departed from its initial mandate somewhat, the criteria, the recipients pretty much since the mid 80's with only a few exceptions those who have overcome illnesses, injury, alcoholism & so on. Rather eclectic grouping, list of recipients of the Masterton & no, theres no way, no point in even thinking about ranking them as players against one another.

The Lady Byng recipients however, since 1924.... yes, you could rank them 1-94, and no, no one would laugh about it. Make for a pretty interesting exercise actually. Wayne Gretzky's on that list (and thanks Panther - 5X's). Others, including players amongst his contemporaries won it on multiple occasions. So we go beyond points, we get into a whole range of criteria that isnt measurable. Things for which no stats, no numbers are kept. Entirely knowledge based. I wonder then where Wayne Gretzky might rank on a Top 94 All Time Best of the Lady Byng trophy winners.... This award, its recipients, these are the guys where the rubber really hits the road, all round excellent players in almost every case & you have to know your stuff, know the game, know the players & dynamics inside out, upside down. Be challenging thats for sure.
 
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Howie Hodge

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Off-topic, but that makes for a good trivia question - how many Lady Byng winners have dropped the gloves in the NHL?

Quite a few, I think. Mikita fought all the time when he was younger. Bobby Hull had quite a few scraps as well. Middleton, too.

Gretzky fought Neal Broten. Sakic fought Doug Gilmour. Datsyuk fought Scott Niedermayer. I'm pretty sure Kurri fought someone at one point, but I can't recall who.

Just so we're clear, it was stated now, not in the past, regarding players who will "never" fight - at least earnestly.

Not stating whether that's a pro or a con, just that times have changed...

Hull I wouldn't have wanted to fight; guy was built like the Hulk!! :thumbu:
 

sr edler

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Mar 20, 2010
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Nobody respects dirty players.

A lot of people respect Messier (not me though, sensible as I am) despite him being one of the dirtiest players in the modern era, and despite his pompous self-loving persona.
 

The Panther

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Wayne Gretzky's on that list (5X's, thanks Panther). Others, including players amongst his contemporaries won it on multiple occasions.
Gretzky actually won the Lady Byng 5 times, and he must be the only (?) player to win it with three different teams! He won it three times while with L.A.

Actually, I don't get why he won in 1991-92, when he had 0.46 penalty-minutes per game, which is goon-like among Lady Byng winners. Gretzky in 1992 is the most penalized Lady Byng winner going back to Bobby Hull in 1965.

Let's face it -- nobody really cares about this award. (To draw a distinction, "gentlemanly play" is indeed a great thing, but this award... less so.)
 
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Kyndig

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Jan 3, 2012
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Dunno but ROR should win it this season. ROR only took a single 2 minute penalty all season despite playing around 20 minutes a game and the penalty he took was a terrible call. Set a new record for faceoff wins in a single season and put up decent #'s on the last place team which could've easily led to frustration penalties.
 
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Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Gretzky actually won the Lady Byng 5 times, and he must be the only (?) player to win it with three different teams! He won it three times while with L.A.

Ah, your right, my error. Spread out quite a bit too... from 80~99.
 

blood gin

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Jan 17, 2017
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When the Lady Byng was awarded to Frank Nighbor at the end of the in 1925 it was in appreciation for clean as described above while recognizing an important aspect of hockey - avoiding penalties. This was in an era where a complete minor had to be served.

It was an interesting story too. He was asked by Lady Byng herself if he liked the trophy, if the league would accept it as an official award etc? He said sure...sounds like a good idea. And she hands it it to him and declares him the first Lady Byng trophy winner

If Nighbor decided to say "Nah, don't think they'd go for it" the award may not even exist.
 
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VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
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In recent years,...

I scoffed when Brian Campbell, Ryan O'Reilly, Jiri Hudler and Johnny Gaudreau won it.

The trophy used to be a sort-of defunct 'give credit to the quiet star whose offensive stats don't quite measure up and yet deserves more trophies than he gets' (e.g., Datsyuk, Francis, Mullen, Ratelle, Keon).

When Nighbor won the trophy for the 2nd consecutive time he had 40 PIMs while his teammate Cy Denneny led the team in scoring with 36 points(2nd in the league to Nels Stewart of the Maroons) and Denneny had only 18 PIMs!!! Yet it was Nighbor seen leaguewide as an underappreciated superstar nearly on par with the Habs' Howie Morenz. Giving him a aback-toback trophy helps boost his profile.

The following season Billy Burch of the lowly NY Americans had a great year, by far the team leader in scoring, top-10 leaguewide, yet his team couldn't even make the playoffs. Newspaper reports praised him as a star in the weeds and despite being 2nd in team penalties among forwards (40 PIMs, behind only Shorty Green), Burch took home the Lady Byng. What a gentleman to 'keep his chin up' and grin and bear the lowly team he played for!

There are plenty of more such examples.
 
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Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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In recent years,...

I scoffed when Brian Campbell, Ryan O'Reilly, Jiri Hudler and Johnny Gaudreau won it.

The trophy used to be a sort-of defunct 'give credit to the quiet star whose offensive stats don't quite measure up and yet deserves more trophies than he gets' (e.g., Datsyuk, Francis, Mullen, Ratelle, Keon).

When Nighbor won the trophy for the 2nd consecutive time he had 40 PIMs while his teammate Cy Denneny led the team in scoring with 36 points(2nd in the league to Nels Stewart of the Maroons) and Denneny had only 18 PIMs!!! Yet it was Nighbor seen leaguewide as an underappreciated superstar nearly on par with the Habs' Howie Morenz. Giving him a aback-toback trophy helps boost his profile.

The following season Billy Burch of the lowly NY Americans had a great year, by far the team leader in scoring, top-10 leaguewide, yet his team couldn't even make the playoffs. Newspaper reports praised him as a star in the weeds and despite being 2nd in team penalties among forwards (40 PIMs, behind only Shorty Green), Burch took home the Lady Byng. What a gentleman to 'keep his chin up' and grin and bear the lowly team he played for!

There are plenty of more such examples.

Indeed... colorful stories behind a lot of them... anecdotal... so Ive always enjoyed the trophy for that reason amongst others. Interesting, fun stuff.
 

Canadiens1958

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In recent years,...

I scoffed when Brian Campbell, Ryan O'Reilly, Jiri Hudler and Johnny Gaudreau won it.

The trophy used to be a sort-of defunct 'give credit to the quiet star whose offensive stats don't quite measure up and yet deserves more trophies than he gets' (e.g., Datsyuk, Francis, Mullen, Ratelle, Keon).

When Nighbor won the trophy for the 2nd consecutive time he had 40 PIMs while his teammate Cy Denneny led the team in scoring with 36 points(2nd in the league to Nels Stewart of the Maroons) and Denneny had only 18 PIMs!!! Yet it was Nighbor seen leaguewide as an underappreciated superstar nearly on par with the Habs' Howie Morenz. Giving him a aback-toback trophy helps boost his profile.

The following season Billy Burch of the lowly NY Americans had a great year, by far the team leader in scoring, top-10 leaguewide, yet his team couldn't even make the playoffs. Newspaper reports praised him as a star in the weeds and despite being 2nd in team penalties among forwards (40 PIMs, behind only Shorty Green), Burch took home the Lady Byng. What a gentleman to 'keep his chin up' and grin and bear the lowly team he played for!

There are plenty of more such examples.

Billy Burch was also a member of the 1924-25 Hamilton Tigers, first place finishers who went on strike for more pay given that initially they had contracted for a 24 game schedule but wound up playing a 30 game schedule.

Nighbor's profile did not need boosting.

Interesting facet was that until Gordie Drillon won the trophy in 1937-38, all winners were centers.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I think it stems from the nature of hockey culture. Toughness is respected in hockey, and even dirtiness is often respected, and many people will equate a player being deemed gentlemanly with that player not being tough.

I have read from some media members, from Friedman I think but maybe also McKenzie, that some players don't want to be considered for the trophy for that very reason. There's nothing wrong with being a good, clean player. The criteria for the award is a lot more abstract than most though, and that probably hurts it as well.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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I think it stems from the nature of hockey culture. Toughness is respected in hockey, and even dirtiness is often respected, and many people will equate a player being deemed gentlemanly with that player not being tough.

I have read from some media members, from Friedman I think but maybe also McKenzie, that some players don't want to be considered for the trophy for that very reason. There's nothing wrong with being a good, clean player. The criteria for the award is a lot more abstract than most though, and that probably hurts it as well.

yeah, seems its because most people agree that not all PIM are made the same. They want their players to get some penalties because sometimes the situation warrants it. Either sticking up for a teammate, pushing back when pushed, etc. Even playing physically will lead to some PIM because every so often you'll miss or be late, etc.

Seems the Lady Byng trophy has the stink of passive play on it. Winning it almost brands the player as soft/passive/a push over.
 

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