Why is Hockey Canada so slow to acknowledge the Woman's game needs change?
- Thread starter Ilyeu
- Start date
There's no need for anyone to "spin" SEVEN STRAIGHT gold medal game wins.
Stop being silly.
Baxterman
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- Aug 27, 2017
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Like I said a lot of OT and SO in there. Looks like two evenly matched teams to me.
Especially when you throw in the games the played overall during that time.
It's true that almost no one pays attention to the women's game unless its the Olympics (hence the crushing sorrow for the losing side), but it obviously matters to some people judging by the number of posts during and after the gold medal game.
PecnoTrunk
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- Dec 20, 2014
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Absolutely correct
people here who thought it was only a shootout win better wake up
Yes, canada won the last 4 Olympics but those games really were won by Canadian goaltending
The day Goaltending fails for Canada will be the day we dont even get a sniff at gold
We are being dominated by USA skill...so it wasn't just a shootout loss
Bixby Snyder
IBTFAD
Yeah, those 3 players are in the top 10 because of politics.
you can believe whatever you want but it doesn't change the facts.
Haha. This is an awesome response. This wasn't exactly my point. We live in a world today where everything is an overreaction and everything is extremely polarizing. We are either this or that, and nothing in between. The woman lost one Olympic final in twenty years and it was in a shootout. I think it is a bit of an overreaction to suggest that women's hockey in Canada is tearing apart at the seams, as many were suggesting.
Yes, the USA has won a lot more than Canada over the last number of years. The USA is a very good team and the country has a population ten times greater to pick from. The rest of the world is catching up; this is something we should get used to.
New User Name
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I'm Canadian and I think you can't compare 1996 to today.
As they say "the proof is in the pudding" The number of American kids playing hockey is increasing at a phenomenal rate (for the first time in history, Canadians comprise less than 50% of NHL players)
The USNTDP is an absolute gem of a development system, as is the development of youth hockey in the states.
Since 2010 the US has won 3 under 20's to Canada's 2. Both countries have 6 top 3 finishes in that time.
Since 2010 the US has won 6 under 18's to Canada's 1 (yes I know Canada is missing players)
The bottom line is youth participation in hockey is growing in the US, probably at a faster rate than youth participation in Canada. Florida, Las Vegas, Tennessee, Texas, California and even Arizona are seeing significant gains in kids playing the game. When Seattle gets a team you'll see the same thing.
Since 2010, 27% of drafted players are American. That number will only grow.
I don't think Americans will overtake Canadians in 2 decades but I do expect it within 50 years.
Look, I don't like Atticus Finch, he has an unhealthy hate for anything Canadian and I find it disturbing if in fact he's a web developer/ programmer as that suggests a college degree which usually means one has lost certain childhood behaviour (which he has not) but you can't disregard the statistical facts that the game is growing substantially in the US and with a population ten times that of Canada, the US will overtake Canada as the number one hockey country within I'd say 50 years.
One more point.....At one time the majority of players on American college teams were Canadian.....not so today and we're seeing a lot of those American players playing in the NHL/AHL.
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Sure, they're obviously quite evenly matched in that we see a lot of games going to OT, and rarely see blowouts.
But with seven straight gold medal wins, I think we can safely call the USA #1 at the moment. Otherwise what's the point of even handing out medals?
True, but I don't see a huge improvement, if any, when it comes to top-end talent. I'd say Team USA during the 1996-2002 era had a more impressive roster than 2014 or 2016 (even adding the young talent stolen by the U-23 farce).
That's not to say the US isn't improving, but they are yet to show it at the senior level. If you had told me in 1996 that the US wouldn't have another World Cup/Olympic/World title 22 years later there's no way I'd have thought that was even possible.
Brownies
Registered User
I know the feeling. I used the Master Ball (I think it's the right name) to catch Articuno....
I didn't think Canada looked particularly slow or unskilled...
Bixby Snyder
IBTFAD
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Yeah, those 3 players are in the top 10 because of politics.
you can believe whatever you want but it doesn't change the facts.
You are right that it is disappointing for Canada to only have as many top ten scorers as USA. Canada should expect more. Having 11 of the top 20 scorers is decent, but there is always room for improvement.
Baxterman
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None of this comes close to indicating the US are overtaking Canada. The junior records ignore the fact that Canada is usually missing a significant number of its best players during those tournaments and still manage to be at the top.
Canada still has the highest number of players drafted, by far the highest number of players in the league and by even greater number of the elite players. The best player in the game is a debate between 2 Canadians with no American even close, the best defenseman is a debate between a Swede and a Canadian again with no American even remotely close and the best goalie is a Canadian with no American in the realm of the conversation.
Yes American participation has increased but they are basically in the same spot as they were in 1996 when it comes to the top players in the game. They aren't any closer to beating us best on best, they still would struggle to produce similar levels of elite level players and while they may have more low level guys depth wise teams of Canada B and C would whip USA B and C.
Baxterman
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Yeah, those 3 players are in the top 10 because of politics.
you can believe whatever you want but it doesn't change the facts.
Well just to be clear it is 4 Canadians and 3 Americans since Kessel and Crosby are tied and after that Canada has 7 in the next 10 compared to the Americans with 1 but that doesn't fit your narrative so I guess like usual with you we will just ignore that.
ManofSteel55
Registered User
Hockey Canada should be doing more to promote the Women's game, but until there is a way to not lose money on it, it's going to be a hard sell.
Bixby Snyder
IBTFAD
Baxterman
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Well you ignored that Crosby and Kessel are tied in scoring so it made your "point" look better.
Bixby Snyder
IBTFAD
Kessel has more goals. When two players are tied in points the guy with more goals gets the higher spot on the list.
Goals>Assists
Skip2myBordyloo
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- Apr 7, 2010
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Too many women on the Canadian squad couldn't keep up with the pace of the americans. Canada is going to have to get faster if they want to re-take the throne.
This, this and so much more this (except the hockey IQ part). Looking at the round robin game, the gold medal game 4 years ago, both those games I feel the USA outplayed the Canadians.
As a Canadian coaching in the USA (but still cheering for Canada) I feel the development model (ADM) championed by the USA in the last 10 years has placed such a huge emphasis on speed and skill which is what we are seeing now. Canadians are rightfully proud of the grit, determination aspect which has lead to success, but at all levels and genders hockey is becoming a speed/skill game.
Canada still produces amazing players, but even watching the world juniors, the past few years I've felt the Americans had better skaters that can really push the pace and dominate. Granted there is a balance, and finding the balance between skill and grit/toughness/whatever you want to call it is crucial to success at the highest levels.
As an Oilers fan the parallels between them and Hockey Canada are scary...
When comparing the hockey development systems in the USA and Canada here are some things of note
MENS:
Canada is far too reliant on two key factors.
The USA population is 10x that of Canada's however when you consider social significance, cost to play the game, and access to facilities it will take decades for the USA to significantly outdraw Canada in numbers of players.
As an example, there are around 1,500 ice hockey rinks in the USA, whereas Canada has 3,300.
Where the real difference can be made is the ability to develop elite hockey players and this is where the USA has made up most of their ground.
Canada's youth hockey system is mostly based on the competitive model. Create teams with the best players, give them the best coaches, play in elite leagues against each other and try and win as many games as possible. The best players get better by playing against the best. As kids get older they move into smaller and smaller leagues until you have a very small pool of very good players, of which a handful will be elite.
More of the USA youth hockey system is based on the development model. Attracted as many kids as possible, try to keep them playing the game and focus on the core skills sets, skating, stick handling, shooting. Once the kids hit the teenage years shift the top end players a competitive model.
It is no secret to anyone who studies athletic development that the development model is better at creating elite players. That is why it is called the development model.
Canada uses the competitive model largely because of the social significance of hockey. Too many parents and coaches want to see their kids play on the best team and win games. The USA, at the moment, has been able to escape this because fewer people care about hockey. This is already becoming a pitfall as the USA hockey hotbeds are creating more and more elite youth leagues.
So while the gap between USA and Canadian hockey has shrunk significantly it is unlikely the USA can continue to improve at the same rate, it is far more likely to level out.
MENS:
Canada is far too reliant on two key factors.
- Pool of players, in which they still have a significant advantage over the USA
- Social significance, more of the best athletes in Canada choose to play hockey
The USA population is 10x that of Canada's however when you consider social significance, cost to play the game, and access to facilities it will take decades for the USA to significantly outdraw Canada in numbers of players.
As an example, there are around 1,500 ice hockey rinks in the USA, whereas Canada has 3,300.
Where the real difference can be made is the ability to develop elite hockey players and this is where the USA has made up most of their ground.
Canada's youth hockey system is mostly based on the competitive model. Create teams with the best players, give them the best coaches, play in elite leagues against each other and try and win as many games as possible. The best players get better by playing against the best. As kids get older they move into smaller and smaller leagues until you have a very small pool of very good players, of which a handful will be elite.
More of the USA youth hockey system is based on the development model. Attracted as many kids as possible, try to keep them playing the game and focus on the core skills sets, skating, stick handling, shooting. Once the kids hit the teenage years shift the top end players a competitive model.
It is no secret to anyone who studies athletic development that the development model is better at creating elite players. That is why it is called the development model.
Canada uses the competitive model largely because of the social significance of hockey. Too many parents and coaches want to see their kids play on the best team and win games. The USA, at the moment, has been able to escape this because fewer people care about hockey. This is already becoming a pitfall as the USA hockey hotbeds are creating more and more elite youth leagues.
So while the gap between USA and Canadian hockey has shrunk significantly it is unlikely the USA can continue to improve at the same rate, it is far more likely to level out.
4thlineduster
Registered User
- Jan 6, 2012
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- 474
Canada’s biggest problem at international tournaments lately has not been the players but the coaches.
Our last few WJC had ABYSMAL coaching including this years gold medal win.
Last night, in my opinion, had our coach not looked like she had no idea what the game of hockey entails, we stood a good chance on ending it in OT. Based on the fact our OT “strategy”consisted of dump and change or at best sending one attacker during every possession of a 4v4 OT, it was obvious she was playing to get it to the shootout. Any coach who employs a strategy to push the game to be decided by what is essentially a coin flip is incompetent at best.
The women’s national team steamrolls a tournament like this based on pure talent. Up until we play the Americans, frankly, an infant could coach the team to victory. Once we run into a team of equal skill coaching becomes a large part and it was glaringly obvious ours was not up to the task.
Does HC need to panic on the state of the women’s game? No. Does it need to select coaches who aren’t complete idiots? Very much so.
Our last few WJC had ABYSMAL coaching including this years gold medal win.
Last night, in my opinion, had our coach not looked like she had no idea what the game of hockey entails, we stood a good chance on ending it in OT. Based on the fact our OT “strategy”consisted of dump and change or at best sending one attacker during every possession of a 4v4 OT, it was obvious she was playing to get it to the shootout. Any coach who employs a strategy to push the game to be decided by what is essentially a coin flip is incompetent at best.
The women’s national team steamrolls a tournament like this based on pure talent. Up until we play the Americans, frankly, an infant could coach the team to victory. Once we run into a team of equal skill coaching becomes a large part and it was glaringly obvious ours was not up to the task.
Does HC need to panic on the state of the women’s game? No. Does it need to select coaches who aren’t complete idiots? Very much so.
