Why is all of Canada celebrating????

[Westguy13]

I have been to Kansas City. Have you ever been to Winnipeg?

I don't believe a team should be placed anywhere just because people want a team there. Don't be ridiculous.

Your numbers are wrong. Winnipeg's metro is over 700,000 and I haven't seen any figures showing KC has 2.2 million people, no matter how KC's area is described. The other factor you have to consider about a city is the demographics of its population and the percentage of such demographic likely to be hockey fans, but that's another issue.

GHOST

Uhhh yeabh I just said Winnipeg was over 700,000. Read the post the exact thing I said was I saw Winnipeg at 650,000 but I wasn't looking metro. KC is about 2.2 mil once you count the Leavenworth/Lansing area which is 5 minutes outside town and is counted seperately in the Census reports.

I haven't been to Winnipeg but I'm not disputing their love for hockey either am I?

 

[Westguy13]

Ohh and disputing 50k and 100k on populations that far apart really doesn't matter so diputing those values doesn't really make sense other then to attempt to win a point.

 

[Jazz]

BTW isn't the arena there like 16,000 seats?

It can seat 15,003 spectators for ice hockey, too small for the NHL.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

OK and how much do you actually know about KC and do you have any kind of real reason for belive this then just pure uninformed speculation?

- TV rating figures for similar sized cities in Canada and the USA. It would not surprise me if more people were watching last years SCFs on TV in Manitoba, than in North Carolina, despite the fact Winnipeg, Manitoba doesn't have an NHL team and Carolina was in the finals.

- Hockey rinks and hockey players per capital. Manitoba has 100s of rinks and tens of thousands of players. How many are there in Kansas or Missouri?

- Personal observation based on time spent living in and/or visiting your great country.

GHOST

 

[Westguy13]

It can seat 15,003 spectators for ice hockey, too small for the NHL.

Oooo wow yeah lets give them a team.

 

[Westguy13]

- TV rating figures for similar sized cities in Canada and the USA. It would not surprise me if more people were watching last years SCFs on TV in Manitoba, than in North Carolina, despite the fact Winnipeg, Manitoba doesn't have an NHL team and Carolina was in the finals.

- Hockey rinks and hockey players per capital. Manitoba has 100s of rinks and tens of thousands of players. How many are there in Kansas or Missouri?

- Personal observation based on time spent living in and/or visiting your great country.

GHOST

Cause KC is in anyway even close to the same area as KC? They also surf in North Carolina you don't see that much in KC.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

It can seat 15,003 spectators for ice hockey, too small for the NHL.

Too many seats for the likes of Nashville, Florida and many other NHL cities apparently.

The arena was designed in such a way that allows for expansion. How much, I don’t know.

GHOST

 

[Doc Scurlock]

You are also forgetting the most important figures. Not just who's a fan but how much extra money do they have to spend on tickets and how much corperate support is there? KC I guarentee has more major buisnesses based in the area that would back the product then Winnipeg. And I already addressed your arguements on interest in the game when I said a CHL team drew 4-5000 fans in a 250,000 resident area. You think they can't do 18+ in a 2.2 million resident area? With near unlimited advertising budget and top level play instead of a third teir league with no advertising?

Just because there are tons of businesses in Kansas City doesn't mean they'll buy into the hockey team there, especially when you've got other major sports teams in the same city i.e. Chiefs and Royals. The bigger businesses are probably already tied up with the Chiefs. The rest will have to split up between the Royals and the hockey team. Businesses have a set amount of money they want to spend and so they won't all of a sudden decide to throw millions of dollars at the hockey team just because it's there.

Winnipeg doesn't have that problem. The Jets would be getting the top businesses. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers would be a distant second when it comes to corporate support.

That's one of the things I think a lot of people overlook here when they talk about teams moving to a certain location. If a city already has a bunch of major sports teams and they're all higher on the totem pole then a potential NHL team then naturally it might not be the best idea to move the team into that area because they'll be competing with those teams for fan dollars and corporate money.

 

[bleed_oil]

You're awful quick to point out how EIG is inflating their loses but you trust the Nash ownership completely??

Prob true about Regina or Sask, but I think MLB would be a little bitter if they had everyone in the friggin city watchin the game and it'd be less than most last place teams in the US...don't think the guys at FOX would be too happy either come the next TV deal.

More than a littel bit of difference considering the published proven numbers show Oilers revenue in the top 1/3rd and Nashville nowhere near Edmonton.

FYI to all you people on here making a case against small market Canadian teams and for the sunbelt teams.
Every day the economics for Canadian teams improve and the economics in favor of small market American teams get worse
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a4oQj.TWt9Qc&refer=canada

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Cause KC is in anyway even close to the same area as KC? They also surf in North Carolina you don't see that much in KC.

You didn't answer my question:

- Hockey rinks and hockey players per capita. Manitoba has 100s of rinks and tens of thousands of players. How many are there in Kansas or Missouri?

GHOST

 

[Westguy13]

Just because there are tons of businesses in Kansas City doesn't mean they'll buy into the hockey team there, especially when you've got other major sports teams in the same city i.e. Chiefs and Royals. The bigger businesses are probably already tied up with the Chiefs. The rest will have to split up between the Royals and the hockey team. Businesses have a set amount of money they want to spend and so they won't all of a sudden decide to throw millions of dollars at the hockey team just because it's there.

Winnipeg doesn't have that problem. The Jets would be getting the top businesses. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers would be a distant second when it comes to corporate support.

That's one of the things I think a lot of people overlook here when they talk about teams moving to a certain location. If a city already has a bunch of major sports teams and they're all higher on the totem pole then a potential NHL team then naturally it might not be the best idea to move the team into that area because they'll be competing with those teams for fan dollars and corporate money.

I belive I've already addressed most of these multiple times throughout this thread. When the Pens were thinking about comming to town they sold out all the corperate seats and boxes in 4 days. The Cheifs aren't much of a competition being as they only play 8 games a year. Nobody really cares about the Royals because the management has severly screwed them and the fans are discontent. Now throw in the fact that KC has an average EBI around 23,000 (19,000 is the average in the US) meaning they have alot of extra money on things like sports tickets and they do. Even an unadvertised soccer team draws 16,000 and thats not a top league. For every one soccer fan watching the MLS in the US there are 2 watching European soccer that is not on par with hockey numbers. Now you can say that kansans/Western Missourians don't support hockey, There is no reason to belive that. If a CHL team in Topeka (pop 230,000) can draw on average 4000-5000 KC can fill their Arena with a top level team.

 

[Westguy13]

You didn't answer my question:

- Hockey rinks and hockey players per capita. Manitoba has 100s of rinks and tens of thousands of players. How many are there in Kansas or Missouri?

GHOST

How many does Dallas have? Not to many more then us. Whats your point? That if you don't play you wont watch it?

BTW don't give me that question dodging crap cause you've been ducking and weaving half the questions I've posed.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

How many does Dallas have? Not to many more then us. Whats your point? That if you don't play you wont watch it?

No, but if you play or played, you are more likely to watch.

Got to go now. It's been fun, but I've got a hockey game to watch.

GHOST

 

[Westguy13]

No, but if you play or played, you are more likely to watch.

GHOST

And if you exist and have money to spare you are even more likly to watch.

BTW you are also forgetting one of the key points. Potential. Of course a city that hasn't had a top teir team with in 500 miles of them in 30 years isn't going to have 100% support but it has potential to have way more fans then Winnipeg EVER could and thats the #1 reason people will look at Houston, Ok City, Vegas, and KC before they ever look at returning to Winnipeg.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

And if you exist and have money to spare you are even more likly to watch.

Correction, if you exist and are a hockey fan and have money to spare you are more likely to watch.

Look Westguy, I suspect KC will get an NHL team unless a NBA team moves there first. AEG is a power in the business and has good connections.

That's good news for you.

GHOST

 

[Westguy13]

Correction, if you exist and are a hockey fan and have money to spare you are more likely to watch.

Look Westguy, I suspect KC will get an NHL team unless a NBA team moves there first. AEG is a power in the business and has good connections.

That's good news for you.

GHOST

Yeah and for years after I'll have to hear "that should be our team I hope they fail" Just like the people that are saying it about Nashvillle "well that team should have gone to Canada anyway so I couldn't give two ***** if they are upset about the team leaving."

 

[Westguy13]

Ohh and I don't care that much if KC gets a team really. I'm hardly ever near there anyway it's just where I grew up. I just get tired of the KC shouldn't get a team crap dispite being the most "deserving" city. I say deserving by being the best option to make money and the NHL agrees with me obviously. And of course it's very tiering to hear the crap about how my home town is evil for trying to steal the pens but Canadian cities are in the right to "steal' a team.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

FANS of the team, your average guy on the street - raised $13 million dollars in an attempt to save the Jets. That should be more of an indication that there is enough money in Winnipeg.

The way to prove that Winnipeg could have raised enough money isn't to say "well, some people raised a small fraction of the amount needed to keep a team in Winnipeg. And therefore, it could have raised much, much more than that."

The way to prove that Winnipeg could have raised enough money is...wait for it...to raise enough money. If someone decides that they want a team in Winnipeg badly enough, that will happen.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

That's a lot of questions to answer. I don't have much time right now, so I'll just respond with a bunch of questions myself:
Why does England deserve more soccer teams than the US?

They don't. England has more soccer teams than the US because the market can support them.

Why does the US deserve more baseball teams than Yugoslavia?

They don't. The US has more baseball teams than Yugoslavia because the market can support them.

Why does India deserve more cricket teams than Canada?

They don't. India has more cricket teams than Canada because the market can support them.

Why does Canada deserve more hockey teams than we already have?

Wait for it...they don't. Markets don't "deserve" teams. Canada's economy is largely based on the free market, and if you want more teams, you need to convince people with money that Canada can support more teams.

 

[Pnut]

OK, I looked some stuff up, as you suggested. The entire population of the province of Manitoba is roughly 1.1 mill. Now, given the size of Manitoba just how many of those 1.1 mill live close enough to realistically attend games? Now, of those how many can afford to plunk down the $50 bucks per person (that's being on the low side) to go to a game?

Now, Tennessee has roughly 5.5 mill people even thou it's prob maybe 20% the size of Manitoba. Now repeat the steps above.

Links;
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a.htm
http://www.npg.org/states/tn.htm

Now if you really want to compare the economical differences in the two markets I can, but this is getting tiresome and I guarantee it won't be a pretty comparison for Winnipeg.

That's what I am talking about!!!!!

forever

 

[Stephen]

I don't think Kansas or Winnipeg are viable solutions. Kansas City is hardly a booming metropolis as their small market status in MLB shows and Winnipeg has a minor league arena and was a failed market 11 years ago when an NHL franchise was much cheaper to operate.

 

[Westguy13]

I don't think Kansas or Winnipeg are viable solutions. Kansas City is hardly a booming metropolis as their small market status in MLB shows and Winnipeg has a minor league arena and was a failed market 11 years ago when an NHL franchise was much cheaper to operate.

You mean our mismanaged MLB team? The one that dispite having the money refuses to pay it's good players enough to actually stay with them and in turn has alienated it's patrons hense dropping attendence dramaticly? That one? The MLB attendence has nothing to do with the population.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Because there are more hockey fans in these Canadian markets and because hockey is integral to the culture of some of these communities, certainly Winnipeg? If you want to play the "deserve" game, I'd argue those two points. However, I prefer not to use the "deserve" angle in isolation; there must be a willing owner and, for that, an economic case for a viable market (non-chronic money losing) must be made. When you add the cultural importance argument with the economically viable case, you end up with this: any viable Canadian market should at least have an equal shot to host a franchise as any viable American market. I'm not sure that's the case. This is a matter of opinion or a value judgment. People that believe all issues relating to culture, the arts or even sports should be determined according to business strategies or the economic bottom line to the exclusion of all other inputs or values, may not agree and that's fine.

GHOST

GHOST, when are you going to get it through your head? The number of "hockey fans" in an area is completely irrelevant. It is the number of hockey fans who are willing AND (most importantly) ABLE to plunk down actual money, and the number of corporate entities who are willing to do the same. It is in that area that the non-NHL Canadian markets are sadly wanting.

Damn it, I know you know better than this, but you persist still in raising what you know to be irrelevant points.

 

[John Belushi]

Putting it in simple terms,


Canada = Less risk/less reward in terms of monetary and fan support in the talked about areas (Waterloo/Kitchener, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Quebec City ect ect)

US = High risk/ higher reward, with most American cities boasting lucrative businesses that may or may not support a team in their respective cities.

Seriously though, despite dominant success for some US teams (Nashville, Carolina, Anaheim, New Jersey) they have had lacklustre attendance and little of this corporate support that US supporters talk about.

The NHL has taken its Canadian fans for granted, and its time they took the safe route and moved a team back to Canada.

Cultural significance should have more weight in discussions like these. Economics are obviously important, but if we let it dominate our actions the world will be a worse place for it.

I might sound a little cheesy, but this is my opinion and I hope others see my point.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The NHL has taken its Canadian fans for granted, and its time they took the safe route and moved a team back to Canada.

I would love to see another team in Canada. But it's not up to the NHL.