Why Impasse Won't Be Declared Theory

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by futurcorerock, Feb 27, 2005.

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  1. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

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    I'm throwing a theory out here, because i know the I word has been thrown around because of the overall success of the 1987 NFL strike.

    Here's what we got so far:

    It's assumed that one of the biggest cards the owners have to play is the Impasse card. Assuming all 30 clubs get through the courts, they would implicate their own CBA and open the doors again to any player willing to sign.

    From this, the dissention that many assume to exist, many NHLPA members would subsequently jump ship and sign contracts with the NHL.

    Now heres a question i'm presenting:

    What's to stop any player from signing with any team?

    Maybe all this is just ho-hum and will be easily debunked. Aside, i present a scenario:

    Let's say that an RFA who's contract has run up returns to the United States from a successful stint in the RSL. Said RFA is 23 years old and beginning to hit a powerful stride as a dominant force in the AHL. His rights belong to say.... the Edmonton Oilers.

    He comes back and is presented with a qualifying offer by the Oilers. Also, the Colorado Avalanche decide to make this RFA a cornerstone of their franchise... so they give him an offer that is considerably sweeter than the Oilers'. Given the former CBA, the rule is that if a team were to sign an RFA from another team, the penalty would be a loss of 5 first-round picks (correct me if i'm wrong).

    With the present situation, you have an influx of ship-jumpers and scabs entering the league without contracts... could a prospect from the Oilers sign with the Avalanche with the Avalanche incurring no penalty because of the given circumstance involving the NHL/NHLPA relationship? I question because the ship-jumpers might no longer be considered members of the NHLPA.

    If this scenario were to play out, it's completely fathomable that Impasse wouldn't be declared because of people losing their RFA's to a UFA free-agency pool. Worse-Case would have salaries driven up by this free market set up around any player willing to sign in the ScabHL. Granted, i'm biased in saying that impasse wouldnt be declared no matter what, because it doesnt sound like the NHLPA will last through the legal proceedings, let alone the build-up to it.

    Maybe the theory has holes because im missing some important talk in the CBA situation, but hopefully this could spin off some talks on the issue. It's a valid angle that maybe owners are worried about. I know Hotchkiss would be pissed to see Iginla signing with the Bruins, or Nash signing with the Stars
     
  2. Munchausen

    Munchausen Guest

    Sorry that theory doesn't make sense (nice try though ;))

    So the owners would not declare impasse simply because they're afraid an other owner will steal a prospect due to some loophole? The owners have all the cards here. If the owners decide the 5 1st pick rule is still implemented in the new CBA, it will remain exactly the same. Furthermore, we've heard a lot about an unwritten rule that owners do not make such offers anyway, or else you risk being blacklisted. Very few have done it in the past. Regardless, RFAs will remain RFAs, unless they go over the new UFA age.

    The only thing to remember here is, if this was indeed a problem, which it is not, the owners have the power to fix it. They're the ones (in case of impasse) imposing their CBA and they're the ones doing the signing. In other words, they set the rules of impasse hockey operations on all accounts. Saying the owners won't declare impasse only because they're afraid an other owner might steal a player is like me saying I'm not buying crackerjacks because I'm afraid I'll eat them. Wait, or is it that I've got no choice to eat those crackerjacks now that I bought them? Ah forget it, I hate that awful crap anyway! :D
     
  3. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    Owners will not declare an impass merely because they almost have the players broken, a couple of months into next year, when the players see that their only card left, praying that the NLRB will side with them, will not be used, the players will crawl back on bloody knees. Simple, owners will not use that card because they do not need to take the chance no matter how strong they think that their case is.
     
  4. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    With one exception : TIMING

    If Crosby or Jeff Carter or anyone goes to court who feels they have a case due to the lockout in the summer before a new CBA is in place or Impasse then if they win in Court and are ruled UFA's ..The NHL will have to honour that decision .. IMO ..

    This court action would be something a desperate NHLPA will support as a bargaining chip in negotiations
     
  5. loudi94

    loudi94 Master of my Domain

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    As it stands now any draft including Crosby will have to based on a lottery because of the lost season. Crosby going to court to become a free agent will only mean he gets to pick his team. His salary will be the same. I'm sure the owners aren't sweating it too much.
     
  6. Mighty Duck

    Mighty Duck Registered User

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    You suggest the owners have all the power, and would implement a CBA, which in fact, would pretty much take away all the players rights. Well, if I am a player, and have no rights, why would I want a union (NHLPA). I vote to decertify. Now, you tell me what happens? NO CBA, no draft, no RFA's, players go to highest bidder, lots of pro's and con's, but at least the players would get some right, and the big one would be UFA after their contract has expired. Put that in your pipe, and smoke it!! :lol:
     
  7. wazee

    wazee Registered User

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    Decertification would allow the top 20 players to earn any amount but would do so at the expense of the rest of the players. Since the players won't even accept the risk of linkage, I would doubt they will want to accept the of decertification.
     

  8. I'm pretty leery of this entire subject, but it may be the "rest of the players" who push the union into decertification. It is the low salary players who are making the most noise about their dissatisfaction with the union. Understandably, because it's a lot harder to budget for a year or two without salary when you're making $375,000 than it is when you're making $1.8 million or $6.9 million.
    These guys will probably be the first to cross.
    At that point, if the union doesn't cave, then what happens?
    DO players vote to decertify?
     
  9. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Yes they do vote ..

    and keep in mind the minimum Salary in the NHL is like 350 K so those bottom guys have really very little to lose if they do de-certify money wise anyways ..
     
  10. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    Im not sure 'success' from the owners point of view is an accurate depiction of the results. I thought, the players were fighting for free agency, the owners impoed a cba without it and employed scabs. Once players started crossing, the NFLPA decertified, went to court, and won its free agency it was fighting for and that the owners were using scabs to try and prevent. So were the owners really successful?



    One more year, and the vast majority of players will no longer have a contract. Dispersal draft not needed. And the owners dont care about losing RFAs to the UFA pool. So what if Iginla ends up on another team. He's just another replaceable UAW worker. If they are willing to play with scabs, why would owners care about Iginla, or who is on their team. Certainly not the majority of fans. Iginla - Bohonos, it matters not, its the laundry.

    Hockey needs a new start. You cant have all the players going back to their old teams. It wouldnt fit the financial re-engineering.
     
  11. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

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    I don't think the owners will risk trying for an impass..

    Do I think they will win?

    Yeah, I think so..

    But what if they don't? (and I think there is a better chance of that than we consider)

    The NHL has risked ALOT to get to this point(breaking the union, getting what they want)... what happens if the Labor Board rules in favor of the NHLPA?

    :lol


    Again.. do I think the owners would lose, no...

    But I have a hard time seeing them risking it all by going to what is basicly a sort of arbitor, when they would not even consider a non-binding arbitration this year to help moderate the talks..
     
  12. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

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    True to a point... But I for one want to see Joe Sakic and Adam Foote playing for the Avalanche, and no one else...

    I value the 3rd and 4th line guys too.. I don't want to see Danny Hinote playing for the Red Wings.... I would be pissed if JM Liles was skating for the Rangers... If Kono were to leave for the Kings?

    I doubt that most fans, even those on some of the lower end teams would want a total makeover of all the faces they know..

    I am a big money team supporter... so I guess I have more bias in this subject than others..but I like my Bad players too... Martin Skoula.. was sad to see him go....




    :dunno:
     
  13. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    Of course fans want a total makeover. Havent you been listening? Starting with all new scab players, and then whoever crosses to form a new league. It doesnt matter who they are, as it is only the laundry that is important. Why would you care about 3rd and 4th liners? They are just factory workers, easily replaceable. It doesnt matter who they are, its the crest on the front of the jersey, not the name on the back. Right?
     
  14. vanlady

    vanlady Registered User

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    This is the whole heart of the problem. One of the cornerstones of the NLRB is to ensure that an employees charter 7 rights are not violated. One of the primary rights under chapter 7 is to ensure that employee will have the same or more rights with a union than if the union was destroyed. If at any time the NLRB feels that this right has been violated then you get into unfair labor practices.
     
  15. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    Why would the lower earners vote to decertify? If they have 50.1% of the vote wouldn't they just kick out the old NHLPA management and ram through a CBA they liked? A CBA friendly to lesser players is worth a heck of a lot more to them than decerticifation. They could push up minimum standards, gets bonuses for games played (ie play 12 games get a minimum of $100K), etc. If they want to get playing again they just have to take over, Mike Commodore has as much voting power as Igilna or Linden or Guerin.
     
  16. Munchausen

    Munchausen Guest

    I've smoked it and it tasted like blueberry. How do the players have no right under an owners' initiated CBA exactly? Profit sharing, arbitration, standard bonus clauses, guarenteed contracts, minimum salary, a right to veto rule changes (like goalie equipment for example) and injury insurance are some things they might lose if they decertify. Don't kid yourself, the union still has a lot of influence on the league. If they decertify, their negotiating power regarding the league's subsequent business and hockey related decisions falls to zero. Added freedom can also translate in added risk and instability where the players are completely dependant on the owners' will to sign them. No more RFAs? Well if the player doesn't perform one year he's out at the end of his contract. After all, why bother keeping him when the market will be flooded with quality players every year? Furthermore, if the owners make a last offer which will stand as the new CBA in case of impasse they'll make sure that it is tempting enough for the players so (1) lots of them will cross the picket line if the union strikes and (2) the NLRB cannot find them guilty of negotiating in bad faith.
     
  17. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    See this is the point that you are making here that makes me angry at the NHL .. Why did they not make that offer to save the season .. Then to this point Good Faith Bargaining and costing the players by withholding 1.5 Bil in Wages has all be planned and administered against the NHLPA and would be looked upon by a Labour bord very poorly..

    They should have give something to the NHLPA that they had to take to vote or at least tore apart the players resolve .. Everything to this date on the table has just unified them further and IMO .. made IMPASSE a pretty bad option for the NHL .. because the players will say exactly what you just did ..

    They locked us out

    They withheld Guaranteed Salaries

    We threw a Salary Cap on the table to help save the season but rather then negotiate they Cancel the Season ..when its really just down to money

    Now that we are out of pocket 1.5 Bil then finally give us an offer that we can vote on and it is done only as a ploy to position itself for Impasse and in hopes of "Good Faith" bargaining ..

    I think the NLRB will look at the full picture and not just the last card played when making its ruling
     
  18. Munchausen

    Munchausen Guest

    Well wait a minute here, never have I said the offer was going to be better, only tempting enough, let me rephrase that, livable enough for a portion of the PA, probably the less fortunate, the ones who never had a say in all this from the begining, to cross the picket line. They will want that offer good enough so that certain players cave and don't want to wait for a court decision that could take up to a year for settlement. But trust me, that offer is not going to be as juicy as the de-linked 42.5M one.
     
  19. Buffaloed

    Buffaloed webmaster

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    The owners could care less if every single player, including draft picks became an UFA's in exchange for a hard cap. Ten years ago they thought that was very important and they paid dearly for it by agreeing to a highly inflationary system of free-agency. There's a few players on the Sabres I like, but frankly it wouldn't bother me in the least if there was a complete makeover. It's purely a business now, and I favor whatever keeps my ticket prices the lowest. It doesn't matter who's wearing the sweater as long as it's entertaining.
     
  20. ti-vite

    ti-vite Registered User

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    Guaranteed contracts...BYE BYE.
     
  21. MarkZackKarl

    MarkZackKarl Registered User

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    Draft... Salary Cap... Restricted Free Agency... Brand Recognition... Fan Supoprt in 1/2 the markets who cant afford elite players in a completely free market... bye Bye.
     
  22. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    European teams are trying to get the NHLers to sign contracts without an exit clause next year so that they can return to the NHL in the event of an agreement. The European owners, want guaranteed contracts from their NHL players.


    Maybe what hockey can do, is draft every player again each year. All rookies and vets throw thir sticks in the pile each August, and you get a brand new team that can win any given saturday night, err, sunday afternoon. Just like in a hockey pool. And the owners can compete on-line against hockey poolers. The randomness would allow every teams fans to think that next year they would have a chance. Which is what the lockout is about. To fool those fans into buying tickets if they are not one of the top half of teams in the playoffs. So they would continue to buy all the seats for their billionaire, lest he should not maximize revenue with a team he has poverspent on and threaten to move the team.
     
  23. me2

    me2 Calling out the crap

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    bye bye to

    Minimum wages
    one way contracts
    waivers
    arbitration
    salary disclosure on contracts

    say hello to

    10 teams suspending/folding (goodbye 33% of the NHLPA)

    10 teams not trying to win, just signing players and prospects to long cheap contracts because its the best they'll get. They could make money on-selling them if they want

    10 teams overcrowded with stars who competing for the teams payroll.
     
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