Why does Roy only have 3 Vezinas?

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
I also don't remember it as him withdrawing. He played his selfish card about insisting on being the starter and the team told him to take a flying leap, thus he was not wanted on the team. It was the team decision for him to not be a part of the team.

You're wrong about everything else, so why not this as well?

Looking at the previous years save% to determine anything? I don't think so.

That was their numbers in 2001-02 at the time of Patrick Roy's very public withdrawal in November 2001 - days after his 3-consecutive shutouts in 1-0, 1-0, and 2-0 games. Colorado was struggling; he withdrew.

Roy out of Olympics
 
  • Like
Reactions: mrhockey193195

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
23,545
2,006
same reason Bill Belichick doesnt win coach of the year every season despite being the best coach.

voters get sick of familiarity, and are more likely to hold an "out of nowhere/ blow away expectations" player higher. Its the curse of excellence...you produce your regular level of greatness and they shrug saying "so, you're supposed to do that"

with the Belichick example, its why everyone rolls their eyes when someone points out the Patriots have won 9 straight division titles or been to 7 straight conference championship games.

edit: to be fair, it did look like Carey was the start of something special...he did go 18-6-3 .913/2.23 in 28 games as a rookie the year before. they couldn't have known in 1996 that he'd pull a Raycroft

History also shows those same NHL writers that voted on the All-Star selections putting Patrick Roy on the cover of Sports Illustrated and The Hockey News yearbook that Summer, the latter calling him the best player in the NHL after Lemieux and Jagr. If you only look at the awards - whether it be by count or assignment in an individual season - you'll miss the forest for the trees.
But should that not speak to something? I would think people would not get tired of Roy after only giving him 2 before.

It's actually not so much Martin Brodeur as it was Ed Belfour, who was the same age as Roy and Hasek, and snagged two Vezina's in the early 90s when Roy and the Canadiens were at their peak during that era.
This is a great point. Belfour is not mentioned all the time but he should be. I feel people have him with barraso when he is higher IMO.
Rot not being on the team was the best thing that ever happened for us.
In 02 Rot thought he was above everyone else and that he should be named the starter just because. He was not wanted on the team. There were better goalies then him anyway.
Roy being a jerk is clouding your perception of him on the ice.
 

Iapyi

Registered User
Apr 19, 2017
5,072
2,361
Canadian Prairies
Roy being a jerk is clouding your perception of him on the ice.

I understand the sentiment but that is not the case with me.

I just think he is grossly over rated as a player.

I am as objective as they come, I ignore his wife beating and being an ahole and look at him as a player and to me he is over rated more than any other player in any other sport at any time in history.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,840
51,502
This is a great point. Belfour is not mentioned all the time but he should be. I feel people have him with barraso when he is higher IMO.

I think Belfour should be much higher than Barrasso. Barrasso really slumped in the second half of his career, fairly porous in Pittsburgh and kind of finishes as a bit of a journeyman, whereas Belfour was pretty much elite till maybe the last year or two of his career.
 

Iapyi

Registered User
Apr 19, 2017
5,072
2,361
Canadian Prairies
Your backpedaling today is truly outstanding.

"Rot". Funny stuff. No bias from you!


See post #18 before the edit. That is the origin of "Rot" and I used it afterwards thinking it was a term of endearment by his fans.

He was not wanted on the team, simple as that and it was a great thing for Canada who then went on to win GOLD.
 

K Fleur

Sacrifice
Mar 28, 2014
15,381
25,491
See post #18 before the edit. That is the origin of "Rot" and I used it afterwards thinking it was a term of endearment by his fans.

He was not wanted on the team, simple as that and it was a great thing for Canada who then went on to win GOLD.

More a fan of historical accuracy(clearly not the case for yourself) than of Roy.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,056
13,985
He was wanted on the team. That's why he was invited to the September 2001 camp. And he would have been named starter, considering he was coming off of a Conn Smythe and had a .927 to eventual starter Joseph's .910 and eventual backup Brodeur's .894 at the time of his withdrawal. But the Avalanche were a sub-.500 team, and he's still the same person who went public in 1998 about the detrimental effect Nagano had on he and his teammates.

This is correct. The Canadian Hockey Association picked eight players who were guaranteed to make the 2002 Olympic team almost a year in advance (Lemieux, Sakic, Yzerman, Kariya, Nolan, Blake, Pronger and Neidermayer). There were certainly some controversies - for example, why did Nolan make it over MacInnis or Roy?

Roy was then invited to the September 2001 training camp (along with Brodeur, Belfour and Joseph). I believe he attended, and then withdrew in November. He officially gave the reason that he wanted to focus on the NHL season and playoffs (but it was widely rumoured that he was insulted that he wasn't one of the first eight players named).

Regardless, the CHA certainly wanted Roy on the team. (Looking back we can say the goaltending was good enough to win anyway - but of course nobody knew that at the time).
 

snuffelapagus

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
75
26
socal
snuffypuck.com
Roy is the most over rated player in history. There were always other guys better then him. He was never good enough to play for Team Canada.

Agreed. During Roy's tenure there were usually others better than him, most particularly Hasek. His reputation hangs on his cup victories, two of which were predicated on divine intervention courtesy of Steve Smith and David Volek. One rarely ever hears about how he was often out-goaltended by the likes of Mike Vernon, Reggie Lemelin and Andy Moog during the playoffs.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,587
3,597
Brodeur didn't win his first Vezina until Roy's final season, so I'm not sure why he's being mentioned so much in this thread

Belfour, on the other hand, won his Vezinas during Roy's prime
 

psycat

Registered User
Oct 25, 2016
3,239
1,149
2) I think a lot of people concede that Hasek is the better regular season goalie, and capable of the more spectacular save. Roy makes up ground with his playoff heroics having won his 3 Conn Smythes. Colorado may have had strong teams, but there is no way Montreal wins in 1986 and 1993 unless Roy badly outplays opposing goalies - which he did in a big way.

A lot of people also concede that Hasek was the superior goalie.
 

Iapyi

Registered User
Apr 19, 2017
5,072
2,361
Canadian Prairies
Agreed. During Roy's tenure there were usually others better than him, most particularly Hasek. His reputation hangs on his cup victories, two of which were predicated on divine intervention courtesy of Steve Smith and David Volek. One rarely ever hears about how he was often out-goaltended by the likes of Mike Vernon, Reggie Lemelin and Andy Moog during the playoffs.

So true. It's intriguing how some undeserving players gain an aura of mystic around them, LARGELY media driven. He owes a lot of his accolades to the Montreal media pretending he was some kind of a saint and many others ate it up.
 
Last edited:

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,341
26,504
See post #18 before the edit. That is the origin of "Rot" and I used it afterwards thinking it was a term of endearment by his fans.

Yeah, I bet that's what you were doing. It's so plausible.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,584
15,946
Agreed. During Roy's tenure there were usually others better than him, most particularly Hasek. His reputation hangs on his cup victories, two of which were predicated on divine intervention courtesy of Steve Smith and David Volek. One rarely ever hears about how he was often out-goaltended by the likes of Mike Vernon, Reggie Lemelin and Andy Moog during the playoffs.

can't we say the same thing about hasek and brodeur too?

omg hasek was outdueled by hextall, kolzig, brian boucher, and the moose johan hedberg (seriously, h-f has stats of those series now). two of those guys are career backups. he only won a cup because his team had nine other hall of famers, seven selke trophies, and seven norrises. he lost his starting job to chris osgood ffs.

martin brodeur, goaltended by career backups damian rhodes, kevin weekes, robert esche, plus tom barrasso way past his prime. systems goalie, etc etc.

(note that i don't really believe either of those things but we can all make totally misleading statements that someone who really really really wants to believe them will quote approvingly.)

i think the problem with roy is kind of like howe to a lesser extent. because of era, both guys' peak numbers don't look as astronomical as they really should. roy's numbers in '89, '90, and '92, if put into historical context, is almost hasek-esque, and his run of '88 to '92 is a similarly incredible stretch of five straight years.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
Hasek simply was better each and every regular season that he won the Vezina over Roy. (Heck, Hasek deserved the Vezina twice when he didn't even win it!)

Roy had a couple of his worst regular seasons in years that he won the Conn Smythe (certainly two of his three worst save percentage seasons)...

He was the epitome of bounce-back player.

His pride rocketed him upward when he was down.

Heck, when he lost a playoff game and got pissed off I used to go: 'Oh oh', he's gonna go beast mode and win the next game!

I believe Hasek is the best regular season goalie of all time and Roy the best playoff goalie of all time, at least in terms of performances. (That said, in terms of NHL playoffs/international tourneys I'm not sure I'd choose Roy of '86 or '93 over Hasek of '98 and '99 though.)
 
Last edited:

snuffelapagus

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
75
26
socal
snuffypuck.com
can't we say the same thing about hasek and brodeur too?

omg hasek was outdueled by hextall, kolzig, brian boucher, and the moose johan hedberg (seriously, h-f has stats of those series now). two of those guys are career backups. he only won a cup because his team had nine other hall of famers, seven selke trophies, and seven norrises. he lost his starting job to chris osgood ffs.

martin brodeur, goaltended by career backups damian rhodes, kevin weekes, robert esche, plus tom barrasso way past his prime. systems goalie, etc etc.

(note that i don't really believe either of those things but we can all make totally misleading statements that someone who really really really wants to believe them will quote approvingly.)

i think the problem with roy is kind of like howe to a lesser extent. because of era, both guys' peak numbers don't look as astronomical as they really should. roy's numbers in '89, '90, and '92, if put into historical context, is almost hasek-esque, and his run of '88 to '92 is a similarly incredible stretch of five straight years.

The OP is asking why, if he is considered better than the listed players (including Hasek and Brodeur), does Roy not have as many Vezinas? Lapyi posited that the reason is because Roy is overrated to which I agree. Roy is a definite HOF goaltender with a CV to back it up. He is not, in my opinion, deserving to be anointed as GOAT at his position given the fact that he was not even the greatest of his peers. When I cite the duels that Roy lost to "lesser" goalies, I am recalling my disappointment from a Habs fan's perspective that these 'keepers outperformed Roy on those occasions. I'm not going off H-R statistics, just my memories from watching those series. I'm happy for the cups in 86 and 93, but am not deluded enough to believe we would have beaten the Oilers or Pens in those years. If Roy was not treated with such undeserving reverence, I would have no problem with his place as an all time top 10 goalie. He's just not in the upper echelon of that list for me.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Are you suggesting that the first goaltender with 500 wins who had five top-5 finishes in Hart voting and four Stanley Cups over five Finals and nine Conference Finals appearances didn't win enough?

The two times he was supposedly out-dueled by Mike Vernon (1989 and 1997 - two of the only four/five times he lost a series in fewer than 7 games), he lost with a .908 and a .930 - identical to the league leading save percentages in those respective years. If Roy was out-dueled by Vernon, it's because Calgary and Detroit had 113 more bullets.
 

billybudd

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
22,049
2,249
Plante - 7
Durnan - 6
Hasek - 6
Dryden - 5
Brodeur - 4
Sawchuk - 4

Roy at points is considered to be better then all of these guys, why does he have only 3 Vezinas?

Roy was contemporaries with two of those guys (edit: and Belfour). Stiff competition.

I would totally disagree that Roy was better than Hasek, by the way. Watching them for years...there's just no way, imo. Even Brodeur vs Roy might be a coinflip for me due to how game-changing MB's puck-movement could be (I recognize that few will see it this way).
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,840
51,502
Agreed. During Roy's tenure there were usually others better than him, most particularly Hasek. His reputation hangs on his cup victories, two of which were predicated on divine intervention courtesy of Steve Smith and David Volek. One rarely ever hears about how he was often out-goaltended by the likes of Mike Vernon, Reggie Lemelin and Andy Moog during the playoffs.

You're talking about a goalie who won a combined 4 Stanley Cups in the era of prime Gretzky and Lemieux.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,840
51,502
Hasek was a brilliant goalie and most probably better than Roy in the big picture, but also understand his position in Buffalo was an ideal showcase for the classic "man alone" goalie, of which there were many in the 1990s.

Spectacular athleticism and acrobatics, second and third efforts, bad team on paper in front of him, no goal support, no chance in the playoffs except a Cinderella run out of the blue. Many goalies built their reputation, Bill Ranford, Curtis Joseph, John Vanbiesbrouck, Arturs Irbe.

Obviously Hasek is GOAT or near that, but maybe the perceived gap between he and Roy seems greater because he had that platform to shine without the actual expectation of wining anything.
 

GreatGonzo

Surrounded by Snowflakes
May 26, 2011
8,860
2,902
South Of the Tank
I’ve always felt Hasek was the better regular season goalie, while Roy was the better playoff goalie. But that doesn’t mean Roy didn’t have an exceptional regular season resume as well.

10x Top five Vezina
7x Vezina nominee
3x Winner
5x Jennings Winner
5x Top 5 Hart
2x Hart nominee
4x First Team AS
2x Second Team
First goaltender to 500 wins
551 wins(2nd)

It’s all about preference but I do believe Roy’s playoffs put him a bit above Hasek. But I can see the side of Hasek based on his Hart history, which was amazing for a goalie.
 
Last edited:

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->