Who wins the cup instead of Edmonton?

[canuckster19]

Note, I was a huge Oilers fan when I was a kid and was up until Gretzky left, so this thread isn't to make fun of the Oilers, but purely a what-if scenario.

Basically who do you think would have won the Cup the years Edmonton won it if all other playoff series played out as they did save for Edmonton's? Just assume Vancouver was in place of Edmonton and lost all their first round matchups, I'm not picking Vancouver to go on a Cinderella run any of those years.

1984, Winnipeg plays Calgary in the quarter finals, Calgary wins that one easily and goes on to beat the North Stars as well in 6-7 games in the conference finals, ultimately they lose to the Islanders though who win their 5th in a row.

1985, Winnipeg plays Los Angeles in the quarter finals and beats them, they go on to defeat Chicago as well, but ultimately lose to the Flyers in the finals, Flyers win that elusive 3rd cup.

1987, Similar story Winnipeg defeats Los Angeles again and Detroit in the conference finals but ultimately lose to the Flyers in the finals.

1988, Calgary beats Winnipeg in the quarter finals, Detroit in the conference, and Boston in the finals winning their first Cup a year earlier

1990 Winnipeg defeats Los Angeles in the quarter finals but lose to Chicago in the conference finals, Chicago though eventually lose to the Bruins in the final.

I sort of like this what if history, I think Winnipeg would have seen a lot more success in the 80s had they remained in the Norris division

So to summarize

84 Islanders
85, 87 Flyers
88 Flames
90 Bruins

Click to read more...

 

[The Panther]

I'm not sure I understand your question, here. For example, in 1984, are you asking what would have happened if the Oilers had lost to Winnipeg, or to Calgary, or to Minnesota?

 

[tony d]

I like doing these and this is assuming Edmonton loses in the round they where closest to losing to prior to the Cup final.

1984: Edmonton loses in Round 2 to Calgary in Game 7, the NY Islanders win their 5th straight cup.
1985: Edmonton loses to Chicago in the semi finals, Philadelphia wins the Cup
1987: Edmonton loses to Detroit in the semis, Philadelphia wins the Cup
1988: Edmonton loses to Detroit in the semis again, Boston wins the Cup
1990: Edmonton loses to Winnipeg in Round 1, Chicago wins the Cup

 

[canuckster19]

I'm not sure I understand your question, here. For example, in 1984, are you asking what would have happened if the Oilers had lost to Winnipeg, or to Calgary, or to Minnesota?

No I'm saying if the Oilers missed the playoffs entirely or didn't exist, like, as I say in the end of my post, some decent Winnipeg teams never got anywhere because they were in the same division as Calgary and Edmonton.

Assume all other things remain the same though except who takes Edmonton's path to the finals.

Edit: a better way of putting it, is who wins if Edmonton loses in the first round, and how do the subsequent rounds play out.

 

[frontsfan2005]

1984: NY Islanders vs. Minnesota: Islanders win 5th straight cup, defeating North Stars in five games
1985: Philadelphia vs. Calgary: Flyers defeat the Flames in five games
1987: Philadelphia vs. Winnipeg: Flyers defeat Jets in seven games
1988: Boston vs. Calgary: Flames defeat Bruins in five games
1990: Boston vs. Winnipeg: Bruins defeat Jets in six games

The teams that benefit the most of a very underachieving Edmonton team that keeps losing in the first round is Calgary, Winnipeg and Philadelphia. The Islanders likely win a 5th cup (cementing them as the best dynasty in NHL history?).

In 1983-84, the North Stars were the second best team in the conference (a very weak Campbell Conference that season outside of Edmonton). They had some experience, going to the 1981 Finals and likely beat Calgary in the conference finals. Either way, they get destroyed by the Islanders in the finals, who win their 5th cup in a row.

In 1984-85, the Flames and Jets are the class of the Campbell Conference, and meet in the Smythe Division finals. I think Calgary takes out the Jets in a close series, then cruises past Chicago in the Conference Finals. In the Cup finals, they are no match for Philadelphia, who win their first cup in 10 years.

In 1986-87, the Flames and Jets are again the class of the Campbell Conference. In reality, the Jets defeated the Flames in the playoffs, they likely easily defeat LA and Detroit in the next two rounds, facing Philadelphia in the finals. The Flyers had a tougher time making the finals, going 6 or 7 games in each series. In reality, the Oilers held on and beat the Flyers in game seven. I think the Jets push Philly to a seventh game, but ultimately, Philadelphia wins their second cup in three years.

In 1987-88, Calgary cruises out of the Campbell Conference, beating LA, Winnipeg and Detroit. The well-rested Flames defeat the Bruins, who went to seven games against NJ, and they defeat the Bruins, winning their first cup in franchise history.

In 1989-90, Winnipeg gets past Edmonton in the first round. In the second round, they defeat LA in a close series, followed by another close series win over Chicago to advance to the finals. The Jets then run into the Bruins, who defeat them in six games, winning their first cup in 19 years.

 

[The Panther]

1985: Philadelphia vs. Calgary: Flyers defeat the Flames in five games

In 1984-85, the Flames and Jets are the class of the Campbell Conference, and meet in the Smythe Division finals. I think Calgary takes out the Jets in a close series...

Wait! The Flames and Jets did actually meet in the 1985 playoffs and the Jets won 3 - 1.

 

[canuckster19]

Wait! The Flames and Jets did actually meet in the 1985 playoffs and the Jets won 3 - 1.

Yep, rules are all other things remain the same, Winnipeg plays Los Angeles in the Smythe division finals in 1985.

 

[The Panther]

Okay, if the Oilers had lost in the first round, this is what I think would have happened:

1984:
Calgary defeats Winnipeg
Minnesota defeats Calgary (7 game series)
NY Islanders defeat Minnesota

1985:
Winnipeg defeats L.A.
Chicago defeats Winnipeg (7 game series)
Philly defeats Chicago (5 games series)

1986:
Calgary defeats Vancouver
Calgary defeats St.Louis (5 or 6 game series)
Montreal defeats Calgary (but in 7 games... Flames are more rested after an easy Vancouver series and didn't go to 7 games with St.Louis)

1987:
Winnipeg defeats L.A.
Detroit defeats Winnipeg
Philly defeats Detroit

1988:
Calgary defeats Winnipeg (but goes to 6 or 7 games)
Calgary defeats Detroit (but goes to 7 games)
Calgary defeats Boston (in 7 games... Flames collapse, exhausted, afterwards)

1989:
nothing changes, obviously; Calgary wins the Cup

1990:
Winnipeg defeats L.A. (7 games series, however)
Chicago defeats Winnipeg
Boston defeats Chicago (7 game series... decided by Ray Bourque OT goal on home ice!)


The most interesting scenario, maybe, is 1990. I don't think there's any doubt that either Boston or Chicago would have won the Stanley Cup. Chicago wasn't quite peaking yet (that came in 1991-92), but they were on the rise by spring '90 and could have really challenged Boston (who, as we saw, sort of weren't together in the actual 1990 Finals). Still, I think Boston would have prevailed in 1990. If they had, a lot of things would have played out differently. With a Stanley Cup legacy in Boston, for example, does Ray Bourque still go to Colorado at career's end? I think maybe not.

Also, even though I picked the Flames to win that 1988 Cup, I still have some doubts. This is the team that was eliminated by Winnipeg in the '87 first round, and was one shot away from being eliminated by lowly Vancouver in the '89 first round (after a 117-point season). Somehow, it seems unlikely they'd have had the composure to win two straight Cups. But I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt for both 1988 and 1989...

 

[canuckster19]

Okay, if the Oilers had lost in the first round, this is what I think would have happened:

1984:
Calgary defeats Winnipeg
Minnesota defeats Calgary (7 game series)
NY Islanders defeat Minnesota

1985:
Winnipeg defeats L.A.
Chicago defeats Winnipeg (7 game series)
Philly defeats Chicago (5 games series)

1986:
Calgary defeats Vancouver
Calgary defeats St.Louis (5 or 6 game series)
Montreal defeats Calgary (but in 7 games... Flames are more rested after an easy Vancouver series and didn't go to 7 games with St.Louis)

1987:
Winnipeg defeats L.A.
Detroit defeats Winnipeg
Philly defeats Detroit

1988:
Calgary defeats Winnipeg (but goes to 6 or 7 games)
Calgary defeats Detroit (but goes to 7 games)
Calgary defeats Boston (in 7 games... Flames collapse, exhausted, afterwards)

1989:
nothing changes, obviously; Calgary wins the Cup

1990:
Winnipeg defeats L.A. (7 games series, however)
Chicago defeats Winnipeg
Boston defeats Chicago (7 game series... decided by Ray Bourque OT goal on home ice!)


The most interesting scenario, maybe, is 1990. I don't think there's any doubt that either Boston or Chicago would have won the Stanley Cup. Chicago wasn't quite peaking yet (that came in 1991-92), but they were on the rise by spring '90 and could have really challenged Boston (who, as we saw, sort of weren't together in the actual 1990 Finals). Still, I think Boston would have prevailed in 1990. If they had, a lot of things would have played out differently. With a Stanley Cup legacy in Boston, for example, does Ray Bourque still go to Colorado at career's end? I think maybe not.

Also, even though I picked the Flames to win that 1988 Cup, I still have some doubts. This is the team that was eliminated by Winnipeg in the '87 first round, and was one shot away from being eliminated by lowly Vancouver in the '89 first round (after a 117-point season). Somehow, it seems unlikely they'd have had the composure to win two straight Cups. But I'll still give them the benefit of the doubt for both 1988 and 1989...

I find it interesting that you chose Chicago over Winnipeg and Detroit over Winnipeg in 85 and 87,

1985 the Jets were a 96 point team second behind Edmonton while Chicago was barely a 500 team in a really crappy Norris Division. 1987 Detroit was sub 500 in another really crappy Norris division while Winnipeg finished 3rd 8 games above 500 in a definitely stronger Smythe division.

I really think the Jets were a victim of circumstance in the 80s, maybe hadn't moved from Winnipeg at all had they had more playoff success and a finals appearance. Obviously a hard thing to do being in the same division as the Flames and Oilers.

 

[EpochLink]

I grew up in Winnipeg and a big Jets fan.

There are some people (even me) believed 1990 was the year the Jets had a shot at the Cup IF they had beaten Edmonton in round 1.

 

[The Panther]

I find it interesting that you chose Chicago over Winnipeg and Detroit over Winnipeg in 85 and 87,

1985 the Jets were a 96 point team second behind Edmonton while Chicago was barely a 500 team in a really crappy Norris Division. 1987 Detroit was sub 500 in another really crappy Norris division while Winnipeg finished 3rd 8 games above 500 in a definitely stronger Smythe division.

I really think the Jets were a victim of circumstance in the 80s, maybe hadn't moved from Winnipeg at all had they had more playoff success and a finals appearance. Obviously a hard thing to do being in the same division as the Flames and Oilers.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Well, sometimes it's not the regular season you've just had that determines things. Sometimes it's the way you're playing right now and how the team is trending at that moment.

For example: The Jets indeed had a strong season in 1984-85, BUT I think that's more because they got hot in the final quarter of the season than that they were really a top team. Their overall record kind of inflates how good they were. 61 games into the season, the Jets were sitting at 29-25-7, which is fine, but hardly earth-shattering. They then went 16-2-3 to close the season and start the playoffs (two wins in a row over Calgary), before going 1-5 to finish their brief playoff run. They then came back to have a disastrous 1985-86 season, during which, on March 3rd, their record sat at 19-41-6 (!). I guess the same could be said of Chicago in 1984-85 (they finished 16-7-4 under Pulford), but they did win two playoff rounds and even pushed Edmonton to six games (as you know, the Jets needed 17 tries before they could win one game against Edmonton). If we say Hawerchuk and Savard are a wash, then the rest of the line-ups really favor Chicago in my opinion.

But in 1987, I do think Detroit takes Winnipeg. Detroit was just a much stronger team defensively, and Yzerman by spring '87 is above Hawerchuk by a hair, I think. Detroit swept aside Chicago, and then (eventually) beat Toronto, not that that was difficult. They even beat Edmonton in the first game at Northlands, which, like, nobody did back then. The Wings only allowed Edmonton 9 goals in the first four games of that series (and 13 in five), while Winnipeg allowed 16 goals in four games. (Numbers not counting empty-netters.)

Just my opinion!

 

[canuckster19]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Well, sometimes it's not the regular season you've just had that determines things. Sometimes it's the way you're playing right now and how the team is trending at that moment.

For example: The Jets indeed had a strong season in 1984-85, BUT I think that's more because they got hot in the final quarter of the season than that they were really a top team. Their overall record kind of inflates how good they were. 61 games into the season, the Jets were sitting at 29-25-7, which is fine, but hardly earth-shattering. They then went 16-2-3 to close the season and start the playoffs (two wins in a row over Calgary), before going 1-5 to finish their brief playoff run. They then came back to have a disastrous 1985-86 season, during which, on March 3rd, their record sat at 19-41-6 (!). I guess the same could be said of Chicago in 1984-85 (they finished 16-7-4 under Pulford), but they did win two playoff rounds and even pushed Edmonton to six games (as you know, the Jets needed 17 tries before they could win one game against Edmonton). If we say Hawerchuk and Savard are a wash, then the rest of the line-ups really favor Chicago in my opinion.

But in 1987, I do think Detroit takes Winnipeg. Detroit was just a much stronger team defensively, and Yzerman by spring '87 is above Hawerchuk by a hair, I think. Detroit swept aside Chicago, and then (eventually) beat Toronto, not that that was difficult. They even beat Edmonton in the first game at Northlands, which, like, nobody did back then. The Wings only allowed Edmonton 9 goals in the first four games of that series (and 13 in five), while Winnipeg allowed 16 goals in four games. (Numbers not counting empty-netters.)

Just my opinion!

Interesting, as an aside, from the 1981-82 realignment it took the Norris division 10 seasons before they put a team in the Stanley Cup, the only time they pushed a series to 7 games was in 86 between the Blues and Flames, all other series ended in 4 or 5, save the 6 in 1985.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

1990 is the most interesting. Boston or Chicago are certainly the favorites, but I wouldn't discount Gretzky and the Kings winning that Cup, or a Jets team with the momentum of beating the Oilers setting off a great run. Regardless, there's a significant change to the legacy of one of these franchises and their cornerstone players. And the thing is...Edmonton actually was down 3-1 to Winnipeg, and was losing in Game 5. Nine times out of ten, this alternate reality is what actually occurs.

 

[Big Phil]

L.A. plays Boston in 1990, and probably loses, but you never know with Gretzky. Heck, he had his "worst" season in 1990 but they did beat the Flames. So if Winnipeg beats Edmonton and plays L.A. then the Kings win. That means it is a Kings/Hawks final. I still take the Kings.

1988 the Flames win. Even beating the Bruins.

 

[The Panther]

Actually, yeah, it would have been interesting to see Winnipeg vs. L.A. in 1990. Wayne did make a habit of carving up the Jets, so there's always that factor.

I figured that L.A.'s defence was still very weak that year and the Jets had a pretty good season, so Winnipeg would have won it. But you never know.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

1984 - New York Islanders beat Minnesota North Stars for their 5th & final Cup 4-1
1985 - Philadelphia Flyers beat Chicago Blackhawks 4-2
1987 - Philadelphia Flyers beat Detroit Red Wings 4-0
1988 - Boston Bruins beat Detroit Red Wings 4-3
1990 - Chicago Blackhawks beat Boston Bruins 4-3

 

[The Panther]

1984 - New York Islanders beat Minnesota North Stars for their 5th & final Cup 4-1
1985 - Philadelphia Flyers beat Chicago Blackhawks 4-2
1987 - Philadelphia Flyers beat Detroit Red Wings 4-0
1988 - Boston Bruins beat Detroit Red Wings 4-3
1990 - Chicago Blackhawks beat Boston Bruins 4-3

Do you really think Detroit had the depth in 1987 and (esp.) 1988 to take down Calgary?

 

[Killion]

Do you really think Detroit had the depth in 1987 and (esp.) 1988 to take down Calgary?

Wasnt 88 the year the Oilers only lost 2 games in 4 series, steamrollering their way to the SC?... Detroit did finish 1st in the NHL with Edmonton 2nd but obviously not.... no. No chance. Detroit & Winnipeg the only 2 teams able to win a game in their series vs Edmonton that year if memory serves.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Do you really think Detroit had the depth in 1987 and (esp.) 1988 to take down Calgary?

In 87 the Jets took out the Flames, but I don't think the Jets had the gas to take out Demers' Wings.

But you're right about 88, I crossed it with 87 & misremembered as the Jets taking out the Flames again, & I forgot Yzerman was out... so, yeah, a rewrite of 88, Flames beat Bruins 4-3 in the Final.

But I'll stand by a Cinderella Wings taking out a hapless Jets on the way to getting creamed in the Final in 87.