Who was more important to the Toronto Maple Leafs: Doug Gilmour or Wendel Clark?

[Michael Whiteacre]

Both Doug Gilmour and Wendel Clark were considered to be the heart and soul fan favorite leaders who gave 110% on the ice, with Wendel being able to score goals, put up points and engage in fights, while Gilmour had the 100+ points during the two magnificent peak years of his NHL career in 1992-93 and 1993-94 that enabled Toronto to reach the 1993 Western Conference Finals vs. Los Angeles, as well as the 1994 Western Conference Finals vs. Vancouver.

After 1994, Toronto management decided that Wendel's 46 goal, 30 assist=76 point season ('93-'94) was a fluke on the assumption that he'll never replicate a surprise season like that for the rest of his NHL career, and so they shipped him out of Toronto in exchange for a young Mats Sundin, and Gilmour lost his momentum after riding two epic 100+ point seasons due to injuries and a heavy workload, so Sundin eventually surpassed BOTH Gilmour and Clark as the heart and soul leader with the title of Mr. Consistency for the ability to post up points on a regular basis.

Apart from post-1994, during the time that Toronto was on the cusp of success during the mid 1990s, who had more value to the Maple Leafs between either Doug Gilmour or Wendel Clark?

Wendel Clark has had parts of 13 seasons of donning the Maple Leafs sweater. His first stint in T.O. lasted from 1985-86 to 1993-94 (first nine seasons). His second stint in T.O. lasted from 1995-96 to 1997-98 (parts of three seasons). And a fitting end to his NHL career was during his third stint with the Leafs during the second half of 1999-2000 after an atrocious short stint with the Chicago Blackhawks, while Doug Gilmour only had parts of 7 seasons in a T.O. sweater, with his first stint from the second half of 1991-92 to the second half of 1996-97, and a second but short stint in Toronto during 2002-03 (after a midseason trade from Montreal) lasted only one game, and one shift where he incurred a career-ending knee injury that led John Ferguson to refuse to keep Gilmour for 2003-04.

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[Killion]

Interesting question..... and Ive got to go with Gilmour on this one as he was indispensable in terms of team success when it really mattered. Total Money Player. Lifted the whole team & franchise after years of dysfunction & disappointments. Gilmour with a higher hockey IQ, his cupboard full of the kinds of skill's & crafts that Toronto hadnt seen in years (really not since Dave Keon) including Leadership qualities that while everyone was hoping would surface in Clark when he first appeared on the scene in 85 never did. Gilmour played Chess while Clark played Checkers. Far more physical obviously, an important player for sure when healthy but I wouldnt put him in the same class or rank of Doug Gilmour as in considering your question getting back to what I said earlier and the easiest way to answer the question you pose is to imagine one or the other removed from the lineup & equation; which of the two would be dispensable with the Leafs achieving the same success that they did... and I cant see it without Gilmour.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Easily Gilmour.

I respect Clark, but he was nowhere close to being the player Gilmour was at his peak. Clark had one finish in the top 50 in points in his career and wasn't good defensively.

He was a player who could excel in a complementary role, which he did in the '93 playoffs and '93-'94.

 

[Sentinel]

Gilmore. He was a force of nature at his peak.

 

[tony d]

Doug Gilmour. As soon as Toronto got him in 1992 their fortunes as a team turned around. Clark helped, no doubt, but Gilmour was mainly responsible for the Leaf's success in the early to mid 90's.

 

[seventieslord]

Easily Gilmour.

 

[Whaleafs]

Gilmour was obviously the more prolific offensive player, had the monster 92-93 & 93-94 regular season and playoffs but acting like this is a clear slam-dunk for Dougie is laughable. Wendel had nowhere near the regular season totals Gilmour had in those 2 seasons, but when everything tightened up in the playoffs & offence is harder to come by, Clarke was a hair below a point per game player in the 2 WCF runs.

 

[BraveCanadian]

acting like this is a clear slam-dunk for Dougie is laughable.

I love Wendel, but this is a slam dunk for Gilmour, at least over the time they shared in a Leafs uniform.

I do think that Wendel was very important, though. A lot more important than his numbers would tell you even. He could change whole games with a hit or a fight or a goal. Don't make em like him any more.

 

[Whaleafs]

I love Wendel, but this is a slam dunk for Gilmour, at least over the time they shared in a Leafs uniform.

I do think that Wendel was very important, though. A lot more important than his numbers would tell you even. He could change whole games with a hit or a fight or a goal. Don't make em like him any more.

Doesn't the second point negate the first ?

 

[FerrisRox]

Both Doug Gilmour and Wendel Clark were considered to be the heart and soul fan favorite leaders who gave 110% on the ice, with Wendel being able to score goals, put up points and engage in fights, while Gilmour had the 100+ points during the two magnificent peak years of his NHL career in 1992-93 and 1993-94 that enabled Toronto to reach the 1993 Western Conference Finals vs. Los Angeles, as well as the 1994 Western Conference Finals vs. Vancouver.

After 1994, Toronto management decided that Wendel's 46 goal, 30 assist=76 point season ('93-'94) was a fluke on the assumption that he'll never replicate a surprise season like that for the rest of his NHL career, and so they shipped him out of Toronto in exchange for a young Mats Sundin, and Gilmour lost his momentum after riding two epic 100+ point seasons due to injuries and a heavy workload, so Sundin eventually surpassed BOTH Gilmour and Clark as the heart and soul leader with the title of Mr. Consistency for the ability to post up points on a regular basis.

Apart from post-1994, during the time that Toronto was on the cusp of success during the mid 1990s, who had more value to the Maple Leafs between either Doug Gilmour or Wendel Clark?

Wendel Clark has had parts of 13 seasons of donning the Maple Leafs sweater. His first stint in T.O. lasted from 1985-86 to 1993-94 (first nine seasons). His second stint in T.O. lasted from 1995-96 to 1997-98 (parts of three seasons). And a fitting end to his NHL career was during his third stint with the Leafs during the second half of 1999-2000 after an atrocious short stint with the Chicago Blackhawks, while Doug Gilmour only had parts of 7 seasons in a T.O. sweater, with his first stint from the second half of 1991-92 to the second half of 1996-97, and a second but short stint in Toronto during 2002-03 (after a midseason trade from Montreal) lasted only one game, and one shift where he incurred a career-ending knee injury that led John Ferguson to refuse to keep Gilmour for 2003-04.

Is this a joke?

Doug Gilmour, and it's not even close.

If Wendel Clark had been drafted by the St. Louis Blues instead of the Toronto Maple Leafs, we wouldn't have even heard his name for fifteen years.

There is absolutely no comparison between these two players talent wise or in terms of the impact they made on the Maple Leafs.

Clark was a one dimensional goal scorer who offered physical play (though often times he hurt his team as much as helped by routinely taking himself out of plays to lay hits and off the ice to serve penalties.) Much like Rick Vaive before him, he was celebrated for his goal scoring and we were supposed to not notice how often his abysmal defensive play led to goals in his own net. (Clark's terrible defensive play was truly mysterious considering he was a defensemen in Junior.)

No player, in my lifetime, has had their abilities and contributions as grossly over-rated as Wendel Clark. He was the best player on many truly awful teams, and like Eddie Shack before him and Tie Domi after him, he was elevated to cult-like status in Toronto, but what he actually did for the team (while greater then those two guys) was hugely over-rated by Maple Leaf fans and Toronto media. He was, at best, a decent physical winger who had one peak season (thanks, in large part, to Doug Gilmour attracting any checking and defensive coverage.)

This comparison is an insult to the incredible efforts and contributions of Doug Gilmour to the Maple Leafs.

 

[seventieslord]

Gilmour was obviously the more prolific offensive player, had the monster 92-93 & 93-94 regular season and playoffs but acting like this is a clear slam-dunk for Dougie is laughable. Wendel had nowhere near the regular season totals Gilmour had in those 2 seasons, but when everything tightened up in the playoffs & offence is harder to come by, Clarke was a hair below a point per game player in the 2 WCF runs.

when everything tightened up in the playoffs & offence is harder to come by, Gilmour was a hair above 1.6 point per game player in the 2 WCF runs.

 

[blogofmike]

when everything tightened up in the playoffs & offence is harder to come by, Gilmour was a hair above 1.6 point per game player in the 2 WCF runs.

I don't need to look to know that's more Kelly Hrudey's fault than Kirk McLean's.

But yeah, Gilmour was better.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

gilmour everyday, of course.

but my first impulse was to say, let's look at how clark improved after gilmour got there. then i looked at it and actually wendel didn't do anything of note the first year and a half gilmour was there. clark didn't do anything special until the '93 playoffs, but then as we know had his career year with gilmour in '94.

on the other hand, did wendel rub off on gilmour? dougie was already a very good player when he got to toronto, but after the trade he scored at a hundred point pace, which he hadn't done in five years. then of course he explodes in '93 and '94. quite a contrast to the disappointing and reportedly disinterested gilmour and his six points over two disappointing post-'89 first round losses in calgary.

what got into him? going home? it's possible watching and being around wendel gave him a giant kick in the butt and turned him into a relentless killer right?

 

[FerrisRox]

what got into him? going home? it's possible watching and being around wendel gave him a giant kick in the butt and turned him into a relentless killer right?

Doug Gilmour had already led the NHL in playoff scoring with the St. Louis Blues and then won a Stanley Cup with the Calgary Flames *before* he was traded to Toronto. The notion that he got in the locker room with a player like Clark who played defense like he was in a beer league and was somehow "inspired" by that to elevate his game is a little silly. Doug's game didn't need elevation. He was already an elite two-way center and a playoff monster. Doug made Clark better, no question, but suggest the opposite seems to suggest you are not that familiar with the kind of player Clark was.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Doug Gilmour had already led the NHL in playoff scoring with the St. Louis Blues and then won a Stanley Cup with the Calgary Flames *before* he was traded to Toronto. The notion that he got in the locker room with a player like Clark who played defense like he was in a beer league and was somehow "inspired" by that to elevate his game is a little silly. Doug's game didn't need elevation. He was already an elite two-way center and a playoff monster. Doug made Clark better, no question, but suggest the opposite seems to suggest you are not that familiar with the kind of player Clark was.

gilmour had a couple of pretty malaise-y years in calgary before the trade. what do you think brought back the gilmour of '86-'87 and the guy who was a boss in the '89 playoffs?

i suppose i wouldn't deny the possibility that it was eating at swiss chalet every night...

 

[FerrisRox]

gilmour had a couple of pretty malaise-y years in calgary before the trade. what do you think brought back the gilmour of '86-'87 and the guy who was a boss in the '89 playoffs?

i suppose i wouldn't deny the possibility that it was eating at swiss chalet every night...

It was pretty well known that Gilmour was very unhappy in Calgary and seeking a trade after very acrimonious contract negotiations, so it's not a huge surprise that following the trade there was an uptick in his play. Also, having a coach that adored him and lavished him with ice time and praise certainly had a positive affect too.

Wendel Clark though? I don't think he had a damn thing to do with it.

 

[The Panther]

gilmour had a couple of pretty malaise-y years in calgary before the trade. what do you think brought back the gilmour of '86-'87 and the guy who was a boss in the '89 playoffs?

Eh? He had 89 points in 72 games (94 point pace) his first year (going +45), and then 91 points the next year (+20), not to mention being the co-hero of the '89 Cup Finals. He was, however, a little less impressive in 1990-91, which I think we can chalk up to Risebrough and/or his contract dispute off-ice.

 

[The Pale King]

Who was more important to the Rangers: Mark Messier or Adam Graves?

Actually that's quite a bit closer than what's being asked here. Nevermind.

 

[seventieslord]

Who was more important to the Rangers: Mark Messier or Adam Graves?

Actually that's quite a bit closer than what's being asked here. Nevermind.

I'd say they're relatively the same distance apart. Nice comparison and good point.

 

[Canucks1096]

The answer is Gilmour.

Linden and Clark are very similiar. Both are heart and soul guys but don't have the skills to carry a team on there back.

Both Van and Tor both started to have some playoff success when Bure and Gilmour arrived. When Gilmour came to tor back to back conference finals. When Bure came to Vancouer 4 straight years 91 to 95 got by the 1st round and went to finals in 1994.

Heart and soul players needs a high end superstar more than a superstar needing a heart and soul player.

 

[HeScores27]

This would be a tougher question to answer had it been "If Wendel Clark had been healthy, who do you think, between Clark and Gilmour, would have been more impactful on the Leafs?"

As it stands, Gilmour wins every time. This isn't do bash on Clark, he could really take hold of a game at times, but his health was such a compromising factor that he could never truly carry the team.

Gilmour brought in great 2 way play, with superb play making ability and leadership. Not to mention health and consistency in those 2 seasons. He was good in the clutch too.

 

[The Panther]

The answer is obviously Gilmour, although... Clark's arrival was (at one point) considered the revival of the franchise, c. 1985 to 1987. That was a brief window of time when the Leafs appeared to be heading upward with a strong core of talented youngsters (the 'Hound line'... Iafrate... Wregget... Damphousse). Unfortunately, incompetent management of resources (pre-Fletcher) killed any chance that had of developing.

Wendel Clark is a really singular player. I can't think of anyone afterwards that he's comparable to (I don't really remember the NHL before him). He had a great and powerful wrist-shot, which, at any given release, could be the most accurate or most wildly inaccurate I've ever seen.

 

[Whaleafs]

The answer is Gilmour.

Linden and Clark are very similiar. Both are heart and soul guys but don't have the skills to carry a team on there back.

Clark's hat trick against LA in game 6 in '93, or Linden's 2 goals in game 7 against the Rangers in '94 don't count as carrying the team on their backs?

 

[Whaleafs]

when everything tightened up in the playoffs & offence is harder to come by, Gilmour was a hair above 1.6 point per game player in the 2 WCF runs.

Gilmour
Reg. 92-93 83 127 PPG 1.53
Playoffs 21 35 PPG 1.67
Reg. 93-94 83 111 PPG 1.34
Playoffs 18 28 PPG 1.55

Clark
Reg. 92-93 66 39 PPG 0.59
Playoffs 21 20 PPG 0.95
Reg. 93-94 64 76 PPG 1.19
Playoffs 18 16 PPG 0.89

Clark's PPG increase from the 92-93 regular season to that year's playoffs is higher than Dougie's in either of the 2 seasons. The hairs can be split any way you want. I see the only argument you could make was so poor you needed to quote me out of context without the preceding line.

 

[FerrisRox]

Clark's hat trick against LA in game 6 in '93, or Linden's 2 goals in game 7 against the Rangers in '94 don't count as carrying the team on their backs?

Both of your examples are games that Toronto and Vancouver lost.