Who is the GOAT - Richard Jefferson’s take

[tinyzombies]

Would like to see this done for hockey (not just the NHL). On Facebook I just saw a video where he breaks down the GOAT question like this:

Most Successful NBA Player Ever: Bill Russell

Greatest Basketball Career: Kareem

Most Dominant when he got to the finals: MJ

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Kobe

—————

I would ask different questions.

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau (10 Cups plus individual awards)

Greatest Hockey Career: Gordie Howe

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr

Most Dominant Statistical Career: Wayne Gretzky

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux (despite having a bad back since junior)

Most Talented Player Ever: Connor McDavid

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Sidney Crosby

Click to read more...

 

[The Panther]

I'm not sure why Gordie Howe would have had a more "successful" career than Béliveau, whose career was stern-to-stern success, while Howe's NHL career ended with about 17 championship-less seasons and then a falling out with his team. I also don't know what "dominant vs. his own era" means --- didn't every player play vs. his own era? (Not trying to be a smart-ass, I just honestly don't know that that means.) Reducing Wayne Gretzky's career to "statistically dominant" feels like disrespecting his enormous achievements as a team captain / champion. McDavid is my favorite player today, but I certainly don't see him as "most talented ever". Crosby is a good choice for the work-ethic one, but so are about 100 other guys...

Anyway, using the OP's categories:

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Béliveau
I agree with the OP on this one. The beginning, middle, and end of his career are all periods of success, while he retired lifting the Cup after leading his team in playoff scoring. Was also hugely successful (hockey-wise and financially) in Quebec City around 1949 to 1953, pre-NHL career. (Also successful post-NHL as an executive, though that's not really a consideration here.)

(Although not a serious answer, I want to mention that Scott Niedermayer and Corey Perry are the only players -- ever -- to win the Stanley Cup, World Championship, Olympic Gold, Memorial Cup, World Jr. Championship, and World Cup of Hockey.)

Greatest Hockey Career: Jean Béliveau
Again, it's hard not to go with big-Jean. (The problem here is the semantics of "successful" and "greatest". These first two categories seem similar.)

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: ?
(As noted, I don't understand what this means. It's either Orr or Gretzky as most dominant of their or any era.)

Most Dominant Statistical Career: Orr / Gretzky
Orr and esp. Gretzky, but it feels like a backhanded compliment to both. (Throw in a little Ovechkin, I guess, for goals dominance over many seasons.)

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Bobby Orr
Because he was super-elite in offense, dominated in defence, dominated in puck possession, dominated at both ends, and was by far the best skater.

Most Talented Player Ever: Mario Lemieux
On an individual level, probably the most talented player ever.

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Too many to mention
Crosby was a fair choice, but so are lots of others. I mean, you could nominate Gary Roberts. Heck, you could nominate Wayne Gretzky as an example of a guy with huge talent but whose obsession with the sport and desire to be and stay at #1 pushed him to new heights. Eddie Shore's legendary night of driving 16 hours or whatever through a blizzard to get to one regular season game...

 

[MadLuke]

Jean Beliveau and Howe would not be bad pick, but I feel Gretzky has the Greatest hockey career, junior, world junior, canada cup, nhl, the guy as a different dedicated wikipedia page for the list of his career achievements.

It is just too much for NHL team success to make up for his individual greatness career wise and it is not like he did not drive one of the nice dynastie of the sport anyway.

Successful, greatest hockey career can be defined in many way, one thing in Beliveau case outside of all the on ice winning, his wife was very well known with a seat just behind the players in the forum and Bell center, he had national funeral but at the same time with that amount of celebrity-adulation his phone number and adress was in the regular phone book like regular people and fans called him, visited him from time to time, answering his fan mail himself, when Pierre Turgeon became captain, Beliveau had diner with him, when Lafleur was drafted he lived in Beliveau house for a little while like Crosby with the Lemieux's.

There ways to define success in a having to pick which career you choose to have, etc... versus moving around, being a coach for a little bit in Arizona.

For the distinction between nhl career and hockey career, which HOF only for what they did in the nhl had the best career outside the nhl, among the Gretzky, Salming, Selanne, Kurri,Sundin, Hull, Háček and co ? Does one of the soviet did enough in the nhl ?

 

[Voight]

It depends on how you define successful. Obviously the ultimate goal is to win the Stanley Cup but it's a team accomplishment, there's only so much one player can do. Individual awards should be a factor IMO. Hence why Bill Russell is in most peoples top 10/15 all time lists but outside of the top 5

 

[Overrated]

It’s hard to believe that the most talented player of all time stands 45th in goals this season while in his absolute prime

 

[MadLuke]

45th in goals

Not a dominant over every peer season with his start, but
at the end of the day, no player has his team score at an higher rate than McDavid at 5v5 this year:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

And his team still among the best at the powerplay with 27.3%

Other way to say it, he still lead the league in PPG right now, who happen to actually put the puck in the net has not really any importance.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Sidney Crosby

that one is probably gretzky tbh

 

[solidmotion]

[questioning semantics]

the originaly nba criteria are phrased in a way to elicit certain answers that don't really have nhl equivalents. the careers of the nhl's big 4 just don't break down the same way. kareem's longevity, bill russell's team success, kobe's drive, mj's 6-0 finals record are part of their narratives (and shape the best-ever arguments) in a way that doesn't really apply to their very rough equivalents in hockey—howe, beliveau, crosby, gretzky. what i mean is that for instance people usually only bring up mj's finals record when comparing him to lebron; people bring up kobe's drive as a counterpoint to shaq's laziness; bill russell's team success is relevant vs wilt chamberlain's lack thereof; etc. all of which is maybe based on the feeling that the #1 spot is sort of up for grabs and there are persuasive arguments for different players depending on what you value more. there really isn't the same debate in hockey.

 

[buffalowing88]

Would like to see this done for hockey (not just the NHL). On Facebook I just saw a video where he breaks down the GOAT question like this:

Most Successful NBA Player Ever: Bill Russell

Greatest Basketball Career: Kareem

Most Dominant when he got to the finals: MJ

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Kobe

—————

I would ask different questions.

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau (10 Cups plus individual awards)

Greatest Hockey Career: Gordie Howe

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr

Most Dominant Statistical Career: Wayne Gretzky

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux (despite having a bad back since junior)

Most Talented Player Ever: Connor McDavid

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Sidney Crosby

I love the NBA but one of the biggest issues I have with the league is the absolute refusal of players, both current and former, to just objectively state their opinion. That's why they have to create all of these different categories. God forbid they rub someone the wrong way or are perceived as "disrespecting" another player. That's why when the players are asked about their peers they will call 35 different guys "top ten in the league". It's annoying.

I don't think we need to quivel so much with hockey. Objectively, Gretzky is number one. He checks off all the boxes and he came out at the top of this forum's own list, which I think is about as much an authority as there is on the matter.

With all that said, I'm a sucker for this stuff, too, so here's my input haha.

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau - Agree with you here.

Greatest Hockey Career: Probably Jean Beliveau, again, although Richard may have a case to be made.

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr - agree again.

Most Dominant Statistical Career: There's a part of me that wants to make a case for Hasek but I'll go with Gretzky as well.

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux, but Lindros was on a trajectory that could have changed that for a bit there.

Most Talented Player Ever: Bobby Orr

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Wayne Gretzky

 

[Boxscore]

OP has some good ones. For me...

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau

Greatest Hockey Career: Wayne Gretzky

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr

Most Dominant Statistical Career: Wayne Gretzky

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux

Most Talented Player Ever: Mario Lemieux

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Bobby Clarke

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

OP has some good ones. For me...
Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau
Greatest Hockey Career: Wayne Gretzky
Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr
Most Dominant Statistical Career: Wayne Gretzky
Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux
Most Talented Player Ever: Mario Lemieux
Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Bobby Clarke

That is most likely the correct answer.

 

[tinyzombies]

Not a dominant season with is start, but
at End of the day, no player has his team score at an higher rate than McDavid at 5v5 this year:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

And his team still among the best at the powerplay with 27.3%

Other way to say it, he still lead the league in PPG right now, who happen to actually put the puck in the net has not really any importance.

Totally insane what he's done and even after a slow start? Saw him play 4 times in LA last month. Never seen anything like him and not since Mario have I seen anyone do that to the field. And this field is more skilled and skates better than what Mario had to face. Mario would shred these guys too tho, esp with the new rules. Orr and Gretz and Howe too no doubt. Gretz would study the systems and find holes in anything. And if you can't touch Mario or Howe around the net, or Orr in flight... forget it, they are getting to the net, and Orr doesn't get all those knee injuries. And all these added powerplays... Esp if he had a good back his whole career. But McDavid looks more like a Marvel character to me than a hockey player.

 

[Boxscore]

McDavid looks more like a Marvel character to me than a hockey player.

Agreed. I would love to see a baby-faced Pavel Bure burst onto the scene today. Him and McDavid would be a joy.

 

[Crosby2010]

I would ask different questions.

Most Successful NHL Player Ever: Jean Beliveau (10 Cups plus individual awards)

Greatest Hockey Career: Gordie Howe

Most Dominant Player vs his own era: Bobby Orr

Most Dominant Statistical Career: Wayne Gretzky

Most Physically Dominant Player Ever: Mario Lemieux (despite having a bad back since junior)

Most Talented Player Ever: Connor McDavid

Example of what an insane work ethic can get you: Sidney Crosby

There is no way the answer to these questions is anything but Gretzky other than the final three. Gretzky winning 4 Cups, 10 scoring titles and 9 MVPs beats someone who won more Cups than him. And to top it off, the dominance during those seasons too. Hitting 200 points when the next best would hit 130.

I agree with most Physically dominant player ever being Lemieux. Gretzky wasn't big, he was mostly like a chess player. I would also say Lemieux is the most talented player ever. Yes McDavid skates like no one else and accelerates like no one else, but he still wins when you compare their highlight reels. Mario did this as well by looking like he wasn't even trying. He was effortless. So I have to go Mario here.

Don't disagree on the last one with Crosby. He definitely had the work ethic. I think it is important to know that few worked as hard in practice as Gretzky as well. It all looked so natural to him on the ice but so much of what we saw he worked on in practice.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Ken Dryden would be my pick for most successful player. Won everything he could in 7 seasons then went on to have another successful career in both politics and law.

 

[Boxscore]

Ken Dryden would be my pick for most successful player. Won everything he could in 7 seasons then went on to have another successful career in both politics and law.

Heck, how about Phil Esposito, if we're thinking big picture? Plays 19 seasons (without key injuries). Scores 700+ goals and 1500+ points. Wins multiple Cups and major awards. Is a key part of the famed Summit Series victory for Canada. He also gets the pleasure of seeing Raymond Bourque change his jersey number to honor him. Then he's elected into the HHOF. And, if that's not brilliant enough, the big guy becomes a broadcaster, head coach, GM, and part of an ownership group for the expansion Lightning and gets to live it up in sunny FLA. Talk about a magnificent "career" in all aspects... my goodness!