Which is a worse trade: The Sergachev trade or the Subban trade?

[vokiel]

Bergevin added offense only to lose it next on dropping the ball while negotiating with Radulov. The move was pathetic and miscalculated. If his intention was really to add offense, he would have pulled strings to wait after signing Radulov. He made a dumb rookie GM mistake and the team is paying for it now with some unused cap space reserved for another dumb rookie GM plan and a record of .500

But don't worry the goal isn't winning, it's just to make the playoffs and then hope the 15 other teams lose the Stanley Cup.

Insanity in a can, which real fans buy anyway.

 

[sandviper]

Nobody said or expects PK to carry a team. Why would they?

All that was brought up was that HIS OWN play was lacking in the biggest series of his career. As a habs fans I had seen that before. Against Rangers in 014. While Macdonough was dominating on the Rangers side I was waiting for PK from the Bruins series to show up. No not every game....but two or three for sure. Didnt happen.

But do his fans ever take it hard when anyone disagrees that 76 is not the Mario Lemieux of Dmen.

PK remains one of my favorite Habs of all time, but yeah, his "rank" can be a bit overstated by some. In Canadiens modern history, certainly right up there but sure, at least up there with where I remember Chelios, my second favorite Habs D-man of all time.

Anyhow, not arguing your facts as I am more or less in agreement, though as a whole, I am less critical. I would have liked to have seen him elevate his own play more for sure, but that is why I don't look at him like I do Pronger, Bourque, Lidstrom and other greats. Perhaps PK will get there, but sadly not in a Habs jersey.

 

[beowulf]

Bergevin added offense only to lose it next on dropping the ball while negotiating with Radulov. The move was pathetic and miscalculated. If his intention was really to add offense, he would have pulled strings to wait after signing Radulov. He made a dumb rookie GM mistake and the team is paying for it now with some unused cap space reserved for another dumb rookie GM plan and a record of .500

But don't worry the goal isn't winning, it's just to make the playoffs and then hope the 15 other teams lose the Stanley Cup.

Insanity in a can, which real fans buy anyway.

Hard to win the Cup when your team can't beat teams from the West...sad times in Montreal.

 

[Hockey POTUS]

PK's in the top 4 D in the league along with Doughty, Karlsson and Hedman. After that there's a drop off. The biggest myth about PK was that he was weak defensively. That was never true. It wasn't a coincidence that in his first playoff the Canadiens surprised Ovechkin's Capitals and Crosby's Penguins to make it to the ECF. This didn't change when he went to Nashville and shut down the Hawks top line and then the Blues top line in last year's playoffs. Probably would have won a Cup if Rinne wasn't lousy in Game 1 and 2. Josi is good but he doesn't get the heavy minutes against the big boys in the west. Nobody ever said he was "the Mario Lemieux of D men" and nobody says he's in the class of the all-time greats just yet but if you think he's isn't in the top 4 right now you don't know the game you're watching.

 

[Mrb1p]

PK's in the top 4 D in the league along with Doughty, Karlsson and Hedman. After that there's a drop off. The biggest myth about PK was that he was weak defensively. That was never true. It wasn't a coincidence that in his first playoff the Canadiens surprised Ovechkin's Capitals and Crosby's Penguins to make it to the ECF. This didn't change when he went to Nashville and shut down the Hawks top line and then the Blues top line in last year's playoffs. Probably would have won a Cup if Rinne wasn't lousy in Game 1 and 2. Josi is good but he doesn't get the heavy minutes against the big boys in the west. Nobody ever said he was "the Mario Lemieux of D men" and nobody says he's in the class of the all-time greats just yet but if you think he's isn't in the top 4 right now you don't know the game you're watching.

Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman, OEL, Pie, Josi and Letang are all better than him. Sorry.

 

[Toene]

Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman, OEL, Pie, Josi and Letang are all better than him. Sorry.

OEL and Letang? Lmao. They cant sniff PK's jockstrap defensively. The rest I agree.

 

[RickP]

Nobody said or expects PK to carry a team. Why would they?

All that was brought up was that HIS OWN play was lacking in the biggest series of his career. As a habs fans I had seen that before. Against Rangers in 014. While Macdonough was dominating on the Rangers side I was waiting for PK from the Bruins series to show up. No not every game....but two or three for sure. Didnt happen.

But do his fans ever take it hard when anyone disagrees that 76 is not the Mario Lemieux of Dmen.

I thought Subban was pretty solid against the Pens. Him and Ekholm were arguably the best players on their team in that round, at least the more consistent. Malkin (and Kessel) was invisible when paired against them. Unfortunately for Subban, his big goal in game 1 was overturned for a technical reason, that could have been a big moment. Ekholm was also involved in the non-goal in game 6.

I get it that Subban ultimately couldn't make the difference in that series, but that's kind of a harsh way to judge a player's performances.

 

[Andrei79]

Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman, OEL, Pie, Josi and Letang are all better than him. Sorry.

I'd take the first three, but not the rest. And since the ultimate goal remains winning the cup and performing in the playoffs, I have a hard time finding a reason to prefer Josi or Pietrangelo.

 

[sandviper]

I'd take the first three, but not the rest. And since the ultimate goal remains winning the cup and performing in the playoffs, I have a hard time finding a reason to prefer Josi or Pietrangelo.

Here’s how I look at it, I may take Doughty, Karlsson and Herman before PK... maybe. I’d definitely take all three, plus Josi and maybe OEL before Weber. That isn’t a knock on Weber either as I’d take him (and PK) before Piet and Letang.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I think the catalyst that will lead to the Habs downfall is the Therrien extension. Accepting your shortcomings is a sure way to ensure you never succeed.

That point moving forward there was questionable move after questionable move...

I think the catalyst was before that, when Molson outbid Bronfman.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I remember years ago, around 07-08, when the Habs were on a roll, Pedneault had an article in the JDM where he talked about a convo he had with Scotty Bowman. It centered around Scotty's vision of hockey, and among the things Bowman said, he explained how all the good teams in the league were all the teams where the D squad had the most points.

Now knowing this, if you had the choice, would you rather have Subban and Sergachev or what we have now.

What I truly don't get is how Bergevin got schooled in Chicago yet doesnt understand nor seem to appreciate the importance of elite PMDs/two way Ds.

 

[Prettyisland]

So early to have a true answer on the Drouin serg trade. Could swing either way. Jo Drouin would need to have big years in the future

 

[sandviper]

I remember years ago, around 07-08, when the Habs were on a roll, Pedneault had an article in the JDM where he talked about a convo he had with Scotty Bowman. It centered around Scotty's vision of hockey, and among the things Bowman said, he explained how all the good teams in the league were all the teams where the D squad had the most points.

Now knowing this, if you had the choice, would you rather have Subban and Sergachev or what we have now.

What I truly don't get is how Bergevin got schooled in Chicago yet doesnt understand nor seem to appreciate the importance of elite PMDs/two way Ds.

I don't really disagree with this idea. I think we can simply look as recently as Nashville's playoff run last year. I don't think their top-4 D was their top-4 in scoring, but it was one game where they had a huge percentage of the team's shots. Those 4 controlled the game, as well as many in that playoff run, and helped clinch that WCF without a #1C.

Granted, I still think you need an elite #1C, or at least a true #1C and #2C along with a solid D-core and goalie. I don't think you need Nashville's D, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt.

Man, on paper, Josi, Ellis (when he returns), Ekholm and Subban... Johansen and Turris up the middle with Forsberg, Arvie and Fiala. Only question mark to me is Rinne since I thought he was awesome last year, but crapped the bed in the finals.

 

[Toene]

I don't really disagree with this idea. I think we can simply look as recently as Nashville's playoff run last year. I don't think their top-4 D was their top-4 in scoring, but it was one game where they had a huge percentage of the team's shots. Those 4 controlled the game, as well as many in that playoff run, and helped clinch that WCF without a #1C.

Granted, I still think you need an elite #1C, or at least a true #1C and #2C along with a solid D-core and goalie. I don't think you need Nashville's D, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt.

Man, on paper, Josi, Ellis (when he returns), Ekholm and Subban... Johansen and Turris up the middle with Forsberg, Arvie and Fiala. Only question mark to me is Rinne since I thought he was awesome last year, but crapped the bed in the finals.

And even then, "crapping the bed" against an offensive powerhouse like Pittsburgh in the finals isn't unexpected or surprising at all. Rinne is a very decent starter. I think they'll be fine.

 

[Price is Wright]

What I truly don't get is how Bergevin got schooled in Chicago yet doesnt understand nor seem to appreciate the importance of elite PMDs/two way Ds.

Oh he does though. He just thinks Weber and Alzner and Benn are puck moving two way defencemen.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't really disagree with this idea. I think we can simply look as recently as Nashville's playoff run last year. I don't think their top-4 D was their top-4 in scoring, but it was one game where they had a huge percentage of the team's shots. Those 4 controlled the game, as well as many in that playoff run, and helped clinch that WCF without a #1C.

Granted, I still think you need an elite #1C, or at least a true #1C and #2C along with a solid D-core and goalie. I don't think you need Nashville's D, but it sure as heck doesn't hurt.

Man, on paper, Josi, Ellis (when he returns), Ekholm and Subban... Johansen and Turris up the middle with Forsberg, Arvie and Fiala. Only question mark to me is Rinne since I thought he was awesome last year, but crapped the bed in the finals.

When i said most points it was meant as Dcorps vs other team's D corps.

Year after year, the teams D who have the most points are all in the top 10.

But Bergevin doesnt believe in that.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Oh he does though. He just thinks Weber and Alzner and Benn are puck moving two way defencemen.

I think that he was more of a Seabrook/Hjalmarsson fan than Keith/Campbell.

 

[sandviper]

Oh he does though. He just thinks Weber and Alzner and Benn are puck moving two way defencemen.

Well, if by "puck moving two way" to Bergevin is to have the the puck entering the defensive zone, and moving from the front of the defenceman to behind him, he succeeded in his vision.

 

[Price is Wright]

I think that he was more of a Seabrook/Hjalmarsson fan than Keith/Campbell.

I have always been surprised with him not going after Hjalmarsson when he became available.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Gainey: Trades a top pairing defense man - is an all around nice guy who has tragedy strike - gets ripped to shreds.

Bergevin: Trades two franchise defensemen - is a pompous ass - gets defended and called a victim.


Can’t make this shit up

 

[Captain Mountain]

I have always been surprised with him not going after Hjalmarsson when he became available.

I suspect Montreal didn't have the available pieces to get him.

 

[The Great Weal]

Gainey: Trades a top pairing defense man - is an all around nice guy who has tragedy strike - gets ripped to shreds.

Bergevin: Trades two franchise defensemen - is a pompous ass - gets defended.

Can we wait a few season before calling Sergachev a franchise defenseman?

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Can we wait a few season before calling Sergachev a franchise defenseman?

We have people calling Drouin a #1C, so no.

 

[The Great Weal]

We have people calling Drouin a #1C, so no.

We also have people saying Ghetto for Martinsen isn't a bad move. Doesn't mean they are right.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

We also have people saying Ghetto for Martinsen isn't a bad move. Doesn't mean they are right.

You have to stay within the confines of the hyperbole. Hence, Sergachev is a franchise defensemen (if Drouin is a 1C).

Reality? He’s not there yet obviously. Also in reality? He has more points than Drouin.