Where would CIS hockey fit in NCAA/ACHA/NAIH?

[JB51Hockey]

Is there a reason why CIS is under-scouted in free agency?

Mainly it's because they don't want to play hockey any longer. They have been playing since 5, played major junior, didn't get drafted or go minor league, so decided to go to college and still play hockey.

 

[Mathradio]

Mainly it's because they don't want to play hockey any longer. They have been playing since 5, played major junior, didn't get drafted or go minor league, so decided to go to college and still play hockey.

But there are those CIS players who improved quite a bit in college from their major-junior days...

 

[Hollywood3]

But there are those CIS players who improved quite a bit in college from their major-junior days...

True enough. There have been CIS players recruited to the NHL but it is usually because of a fluky circumstance that they are offered a try-out. Such was the case with two Manitoba Bisons - Mike Ridley and Stu Grimson. Ridley was a high level goal-scorer at his peak, whilst Grimson was an enforcer "The Grim Reaper".

I remember when the NHL was contemplating its first post-Sharks expansion. Don Cherry was commenting during the evening after an afternoon CIS U-Cup playoff game. He argued in favour of expansion and said "there are lots of guys in that game who could play for an expansion team" (Paraphrased). So at one level there is acceptance that the CIS is an untapped source of talent. But tapping has yet to happen.

 

[Rocko604]

True enough. There have been CIS players recruited to the NHL but it is usually because of a fluky circumstance that they are offered a try-out. Such was the case with two Manitoba Bisons - Mike Ridley and Stu Grimson. Ridley was a high level goal-scorer at his peak, whilst Grimson was an enforcer "The Grim Reaper".

I remember when the NHL was contemplating its first post-Sharks expansion. Don Cherry was commenting during the evening after an afternoon CIS U-Cup playoff game. He argued in favour of expansion and said "there are lots of guys in that game who could play for an expansion team" (Paraphrased). So at one level there is acceptance that the CIS is an untapped source of talent. But tapping has yet to happen.

As much as I'd like to see it, if it hasn't been tapped after the success Joel Ward has had, it never will be.

 

[Mathradio]

As much as I'd like to see it, if it hasn't been tapped after the success Joel Ward has had, it never will be.

If the NHL doesn't tap CIS talent, maybe the KHL will...

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

True enough. There have been CIS players recruited to the NHL but it is usually because of a fluky circumstance that they are offered a try-out. Such was the case with two Manitoba Bisons - Mike Ridley and Stu Grimson. Ridley was a high level goal-scorer at his peak, whilst Grimson was an enforcer "The Grim Reaper".

I remember when the NHL was contemplating its first post-Sharks expansion. Don Cherry was commenting during the evening after an afternoon CIS U-Cup playoff game. He argued in favour of expansion and said "there are lots of guys in that game who could play for an expansion team" (Paraphrased). So at one level there is acceptance that the CIS is an untapped source of talent. But tapping has yet to happen.

This is something I don't get. Why don't the comparative advantages of NCAA hockey also apply to the CIS in terms of player development? There are a ton of undrafted guys who came up through the NCAA. They played tier II until they were 20 (because they weren't good enough to play NCAA at an earlier age) and then headed off to school. Presumably the practice to game ratio and the strength and conditioning programs allow them to continue to improve. Logic suggests that we should see the same thing in the CIS, but we don't.

 

[Hollywood3]

This is something I don't get. Why don't the comparative advantages of NCAA hockey also apply to the CIS in terms of player development? There are a ton of undrafted guys who came up through the NCAA. They played tier II until they were 20 (because they weren't good enough to play NCAA at an earlier age) and then headed off to school. Presumably the practice to game ratio and the strength and conditioning programs allow them to continue to improve. Logic suggests that we should see the same thing in the CIS, but we don't.

It is largely a systemic thing. One day it may change suddenly. Right now the NHL is convinced that 25 year olds are no longer prospects.

 

[MiamiHockey]

It is largely a systemic thing. One day it may change suddenly. Right now the NHL is convinced that 25 year olds are no longer prospects.

Age is one difference between the NCAA and the CIS, but only for the top NCAA prospects, who enter the NCAA at 18 or 19. These top players often leave after 1 or 2 seasons (e.g., James Van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris), and so it's not right to compare those players with the typical NCAA / CIS player.

A large number of NCAA and CIS players enter those leagues at 20 or 21. How many of those NCAA players make the NHL? Very, very few.

The simple fact is that male athletes hit their physical prime at 27. So, investing in a 25-yr-old "prospect" is like buying a declining asset. It's got nothing to do with their short-term potential, and everything to do with their long-term potential value to the organization.

 

[Drummer]

Interesting note from the Denver Post on UNB vs Denver game.

"DU dressed 13 forwards Sunday but will have just 12 available for opening night. Freshman Emig Romig of Vienna, Austria, played Sunday but must serve an NCAA-imposed eight-game suspension to begin the season for playing in a European junior-A team with a player with professional experience."

So the team isn't considered pro, but because someone on the team was a pro (at one time) the prospect is penalized? Strange. I guess the prospect has to inspect the team roster prior to playing on any team to see if someone is 'too good' to be on the team.

The CIS defines all EU hockey levels as pro and as such you would sit one year regardless - I thought this was interesting as the NCAA has put the onus on the player to verify the level of play of the team as well as each player on the roster. What if you play against a team that has a player "with professional experience."

 

[Hollywood3]

Age is one difference between the NCAA and the CIS, but only for the top NCAA prospects, who enter the NCAA at 18 or 19. These top players often leave after 1 or 2 seasons (e.g., James Van Riemsdyk, Kyle Turris), and so it's not right to compare those players with the typical NCAA / CIS player.

A large number of NCAA and CIS players enter those leagues at 20 or 21. How many of those NCAA players make the NHL? Very, very few.

The simple fact is that male athletes hit their physical prime at 27. So, investing in a 25-yr-old "prospect" is like buying a declining asset. It's got nothing to do with their short-term potential, and everything to do with their long-term potential value to the organization.

The fact that players still in university hockey past 20 are no longer considered "prospects" is true. The question IMO should be how these guys would do at the AHL level. If they can make it there then IMO they are prospects, even if just for a brief career. Right now NHL teams want a guy for 7+ years. I don't really see the need. I would gamble a couple of AHL roster spots for the "late bloomers".

Remember - before the WHA nobody in the NHL thought that a university player was a prospect. NCAA grads then were as rare as CIS grads are now.

Interesting note from the Denver Post on UNB vs Denver game.

"DU dressed 13 forwards Sunday but will have just 12 available for opening night. Freshman Emig Romig of Vienna, Austria, played Sunday but must serve an NCAA-imposed eight-game suspension to begin the season for playing in a European junior-A team with a player with professional experience."

So the team isn't considered pro, but because someone on the team was a pro (at one time) the prospect is penalized? Strange. I guess the prospect has to inspect the team roster prior to playing on any team to see if someone is 'too good' to be on the team.

The CIS defines all EU hockey levels as pro and as such you would sit one year regardless - I thought this was interesting as the NCAA has put the onus on the player to verify the level of play of the team as well as each player on the roster. What if you play against a team that has a player "with professional experience."

The NCAA is weird. In some countries (e.g. UK soccer and possibly other sports) no leagues are defined as "amateur" or "professional" any more.

I would suggest that the onus is on the program to verify what sort of players are in each league. It is tough for a player to do. It seems that the CIS red-shirt option works as well as anything.

 

[MiamiHockey]

You can't really say it's lower because Arizona State's club team beat Penn State D1 last season. I would just say ACHA is club and not a varsity sport. Even though it's not, it kinda seems like club hockey should be better than D1 or D3 because ACHA allows ex-major junior/pro players.

Actually, you can say it's lower. I'm a big defender of CIS hockey, and the best CIS teams do beat good NCAA DI teams (see, e.g., UNB, McGill), but there's no doubt that on average the CIS is a lower level of hockey.

As another metric, how many ACHA coaches have moved on to higher levels?

To name two leading examples, Mike Babcock and Mike Keenan both coached CIS before they go to the NHL, and there are dozens of lesser known / successful Asst Coaches and Head Coaches who have done so (e.g., Tom Watt, Wayne Fleming, Kirk Muller, Billy Moores, Jamie Kompon, to name a few).

There are good teams in the ACHA Div. I. But the league is not even close to being on par with any level of the NCAA or the CIS.

 

[MiamiHockey]

The question IMO should be how these guys would do at the AHL level. If they can make it there then IMO they are prospects, even if just for a brief career.

I agree 100%, but I'm not a GM trying to justify my draft picks. Unfortunately, a lot of decisions boil down to whether the guy is brought up through the organization or on a tryout contract.

A great recent example is Mark Voakes (from Laurier) who played great in the AHL, but ultimately didn't get resigned, and is now playing great in the DEL.

The NCAA is weird. I would suggest that the onus is on the program to verify what sort of players are in each league. It is tough for a player to do. It seems that the CIS red-shirt option works as well as anything.

Let's keep in mind that all the NCAA cares about is its cash cows (football and basketball). Any decision they make in regards to eligibility sets a precedent, and once they allow ANY form of possible compensation, it will be wide open for athletes in all sports.

I saw it suggested somewhere on these boards that the NCAA will eventually let CIS players in. Never going to happen ... not because of hockey, but because those exceptions would then apply to football and basketball as well.

 

[Hollywood3]

Actually, you can say it's lower. I'm a big defender of CIS hockey, and the best CIS teams do beat good NCAA DI teams (see, e.g., UNB, McGill), but there's no doubt that on average the CIS is a lower level of hockey.

As another metric, how many ACHA coaches have moved on to higher levels?

To name two leading examples, Mike Babcock and Mike Keenan both coached CIS before they go to the NHL, and there are dozens of lesser known / successful Asst Coaches and Head Coaches who have done so (e.g., Tom Watt, Wayne Fleming, Kirk Muller, Billy Moores, Jamie Kompon, to name a few).

There are good teams in the ACHA Div. I. But the league is not even close to being on par with any level of the NCAA or the CIS.

Also:
Dave King
George Kingston
Harry Neale
Barry Trotz

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Doug MacLean went from coaching UNB to the NHL.

Mike Johnston went from coaching UNB to coaching the Canadian National team, back when it was a standing travelling team of amateurs. He later was an assistant coach in the NHL, as was StFX's Danny Flynn.

 

[MiamiHockey]

The list is pretty impressive when you really think about it ...

Rob Daum (Alberta / Oilers)
Martin Raymond (McGill / Lightning)
Jim Hulton (RMC / Panthers)

I'm not sure if the CIS -> NHL pathway is greater than the NCAA -> NHL pathway, but it might just be. Of course, that would be an entirely different discussion.

 

[Mathradio]

So what's so different between NCAA/CIS hockey and AHL hockey from a coaching standpoint, other than the level of the competition and the players?