Where Does Lupul Stand?

[Pholus]

Great veteran voice, unbelievable skills when not on the trainer's table. He needs to go to a contender out west where his secondary scoring adds insurance for a team making a cup run. He's got three years after this one. on a team with cap like Nashville, a deal for Lupul would make sense, but there would have to be a willingness to eat some cap as NSH operates on a budget close the the cap floor.

Or a willingness to take back a cap dump, although as you say, with Nashville operating so close to the cap floor they, they don't have too many bad contracts to get rid of. Gaustad and Nystrom are the only pieces I can see them moving away, everyone else is signed at a good value or UFA at the end of the year.

 

[Durkin67]

You're not getting a Monahan level prospect never mind a Jones level prospect for Lupes even if you include Gards .

Also it's going to very difficult to find a team to take him unless we take back a similar contract . Cup contenders usually deal for players on expiring deals due to being at the ceiling so unless they have open cap space the following year and feel he fits with them long term they'll have little interest in him .

You don't have to take back a similar contract. You have to meet other needs they have and you have to eat cap. CGY is a team loaded with a ton of young and up and coming talent. Monahan isn't Jonathan Toews, and he isn't Steven Stamkos. Kadri is arguably more offensively gifted. He's a very skilled young centre with size and good NHL two way game rounding into form. A good comparable, at least in terms of what to expect re: points might be a guy like Cody Hodgson. He's a gamer, but he's not a game breaker. Character and solid work ethic are the things he is known for. And I agree he's tough to let go of, but CGY could really benefit from some skilled veteran leadership and a future stud D like Gardiner. While they aren't exactly long in the tooth on the blue line, theres not a ton of skill youth coming through the ranks either. With their crop of young forwards and prospects, they would be dealing from a position of strength in moving a piece like Monahan in order to shore up needs elsewhere. Sending Lupes, Gards and Peter Holland, while eating 2 million in cap makes sense on both ends. It allows CGY to add some balance to their core, and it gives TOR some really good options up the middle.

Sure beats the alternative of watching Lupul grow old before this team is able to contend, then being forced to buy him out down the road. Because that's what it is starting to look like.

 

[Durkin67]

Or a willingness to take back a cap dump, although as you say, with Nashville operating so close to the cap floor they, they don't have too many bad contracts to get rid of. Gaustad and Nystrom are the only pieces I can see them moving away, everyone else is signed at a good value or UFA at the end of the year.

Your point about UFAs is well made. I think Fisher re ups and takes the hometown discount because of his wife's ties to the community. Other tun that, Jokinen and Ribeiro will leave some glaring holes. Forsberg may take something of a step forward this year, but aside from James Neal, theres not a ton of firepower there. For me, its about a willingness to meet organisational needs and take back significant cap in order to land a building block like Jones. Last year, I wouldn't have had any interest in this kind of deal, because Jones would have been eaten alive by the Toronto sports market. I'd make that move today though. If it meant adding Kadri and taking back JvR's buddy Colin Wilson, Id go there as well.

Within 18 months, its going to become glaringly apparent that Phaneuf isn't going to be the guy to lead the charge either as a captain, or as the team's top D man. They need to plan for the next 6 -8 years in terms of who that cornerstone D man will be, because Dion is a good complimentary guy, not the top dog that we all thought he'd evolve into.

 

[JoeyBeans]

the leafs are in no position to be trading away quality top six scoring talent.

+Rimes = Package

 

[BrannigansLaw]

At the rate he gets injured, he won't standing at all soon enough.

 

[hotpaws]

You don't have to take back a similar contract. You have to meet other needs they have and you have to eat cap. CGY is a team loaded with a ton of young and up and coming talent. Monahan isn't Jonathan Toews, and he isn't Steven Stamkos. Kadri is arguably more offensively gifted. He's a very skilled young centre with size and good NHL two way game rounding into form. A good comparable, at least in terms of what to expect re: points might be a guy like Cody Hodgson. He's a gamer, but he's not a game breaker. Character and solid work ethic are the things he is known for. And I agree he's tough to let go of, but CGY could really benefit from some skilled veteran leadership and a future stud D like Gardiner. While they aren't exactly long in the tooth on the blue line, theres not a ton of skill youth coming through the ranks either. With their crop of young forwards and prospects, they would be dealing from a position of strength in moving a piece like Monahan in order to shore up needs elsewhere. Sending Lupes, Gards and Peter Holland, while eating 2 million in cap makes sense on both ends. It allows CGY to add some balance to their core, and it gives TOR some really good options up the middle.

Sure beats the alternative of watching Lupul grow old before this team is able to contend, then being forced to buy him out down the road. Because that's what it is starting to look like. I completely agree but why wouldn't Burke feel the same way .

You're right Monahan dosen't have elite level potential but if you actually believe Monahan wil only turn out like Hodgson why should you/we want him ?

Calgary doesn't have much in their prospect pool and i don't see them trading him for a injury prone declining vet , a 24 year old D that's weak in his own end and still doesn't put up much production and a reclamation project .

 

[Durkin67]

You're right Monahan dosen't have elite level potential but if you actually believe Monahan wil only turn out like Hodgson why should you/we want him ?

Calgary doesn't have much in their prospect pool and i don't see them trading him for a injury prone declining vet , a 24 year old D that's weak in his own end and still doesn't put up much production and a reclamation project .

1. We should be all over a skilled, high character future captain with size and legit 2 C capabilities for the next 12 years. It also gets the Leafs out from what is going to become an albatross contract for years 4 and 5 when the only option will be to buy him out, or have 10+ million tied up in 3rd line wingers between him and Clarkson by 2016.

2. Calgary has quite a bit of talented youth at the forward positions, and precious little on the back end. Besides Monahan they have Bennet, Reinhart, Baertschi, Backlund, Granlund, Klimchuk, Gaudreau and Jankowski either currently playing or coming through the ranks. thats a pretty deep group. On D they have almost nothing.

3. With such a young group, and with the departure of Cammalleri there isn't a ton of leadership there. Lupul is a guy Burke believes in. His injuries are all freak accidents, not the results of age setting in. In short, he has value, and Burke loves these package deals.

4. Holland is far too young in his career to be labelled a reclamation project.

 

[hotpaws]

1. We should be all over a skilled, high character future captain with size and legit 2 C capabilities for the next 12 years. It also gets the Leafs out from what is going to become an albatross contract for years 4 and 5 when the only option will be to buy him out, or have 10+ million tied up in 3rd line wingers between him and Clarkson by 2016.

2. Calgary has quite a bit of talented youth at the forward positions, and precious little on the back end. Besides Monahan they have Bennet, Reinhart, Baertschi, Backlund, Granlund, Klimchuk, Gaudreau and Jankowski either currently playing or coming through the ranks. thats a pretty deep group. On D they have almost nothing.

3. With such a young group, and with the departure of Cammalleri there isn't a ton of leadership there. Lupul is a guy Burke believes in. His injuries are all freak accidents, not the results of age setting in. In short, he has value, and Burke loves these package deals.

4. Holland is far too young in his career to be labelled a reclamation project.

1- i'd love to trade for Monahan , but the same reasons we want him are the same reasons Burke will keep him

2- every team has a whole host of young prospects in their system but you're not going to move a far more proven player and maybe your best young player just because you have a few prospects in the system

3. on one hand you're dying too get rid of Lupul ( which i agree with ) and then you turn around and pimp him

4- if Holland still has so much potential we should just keep him instead of including him as a throw in , to me he just looks like another high draft pick that'll kick around the league as a fill in

if you're seriously about trading for Rielly then the deal will include Rielly and not Gardiner or Lupul

 

[Durkin67]

1- i'd love to trade for Monahan , but the same reasons we want him are the same reasons Burke will keep him

2- every team has a whole host of young prospects in their system but you're not going to move a far more proven player and maybe your best young player just because you have a few prospects in the system

3. on one hand you're dying too get rid of Lupul ( which i agree with ) and then you turn around and pimp him

4- if Holland still has so much potential we should just keep him instead of including him as a throw in , to me he just looks like another high draft pick that'll kick around the league as a fill in

if you're seriously about trading for Rielly then the deal will include Rielly and not Gardiner or Lupul

1. Every player has a price. Good teams are built to be balanced. And, based on the Burke model, its from the net out.

2. Not every team has a host of high end talent forward prospects. Example: Your toronto Maple Leafs. If you are dealing from a position of strength in one area to fill a real need in another, your argument here is moot.

3.Im neither trying to dump or pimp Lupul. He's a good player who has had bad luck in Toronto. And another 5+ million dollar winger bound for third line duty isn't what toronto needs. CGY and its 12 million in cap space, along with its need for veteran leadership, is a better fit.

4. Holland has the ability to cover a fair bit of ground for a team like CGY, especially in light of Stajan's injury. He's a big body who can skate, and he's finding his game quite nicely at the NHL level. Besides, its about meeting the other teams needs while covering your own.

I assume in your closing remark you mean Monahan. And what you are giving is an opinion. The difference is, you are presenting it like cold hard fact, which it isn't. You have no idea if Burke would prefer Rielly over Gardiner. He drafted both of them, Gards when he was in ANA, and Rielly in Toronto. He then reacquired Gardiner and Lupul through a trade for Beauchemin.

 

[hotpaws]

1. Every player has a price. Good teams are built to be balanced. And, based on the Burke model, its from the net out. and that price goes way up and beyond their worth if you're the team pursuing them in a trade instead of the team who has them looking to deal them

2. Not every team has a host of high end talent forward prospects. Example: Your toronto Maple Leafs. If you are dealing from a position of strength in one area to fill a real need in another, your argument here is moot. we have Nylander and as well a number of other porpsects similar to most of the Flames you mentioned

3.Im neither trying to dump or pimp Lupul. He's a good player who has had bad luck in Toronto. And another 5+ million dollar winger bound for third line duty isn't what toronto needs. CGY and its 12 million in cap space, along with its need for veteran leadership, is a better fit. Lupul is an injury prone aging winger on a fairly big cap hit with term left , these type of players arn't in high demand regardless of how you want t spin it

4. Holland has the ability to cover a fair bit of ground for a team like CGY, especially in light of Stajan's injury. He's a big body who can skate, and he's finding his game quite nicely at the NHL level. Besides, its about meeting the other teams needs while covering your own. finding his game quite nicely playing 4 mins a night , what needs do they have for this type of playersince he's similar to Colborne ?

I assume in your closing remark you mean Monahan. And what you are giving is an opinion. The difference is, you are presenting it like cold hard fact, which it isn't. You have no idea if Burke would prefer Rielly over Gardiner. He drafted both of them, Gards when he was in ANA, and Rielly in Toronto. He then reacquired Gardiner and Lupul through a trade for Beauchemin.

and your opinion is we can get him for the pkg you offered and i'm not presenting it as fact i'm merely saying the same reason both of us want to keep him is the same reason the flames would want him

if i'm Burke and the Leafs came calling on Monahan the asking price is Rielly plus and the plus is because i have no reason to trade him and because you're the one initiating the trade discussions

you're the type of fan that wants these type of players but doesn't want to finish low enough to draft them and think you can deal an expendable pkg to trade for them

everyone's tradeable but teams arn't rushing to move talented character gritty hard working kids just to help us out

 

[Wilbur*]

Monahan for Gardiner/Lupul? Looooooooool.

 

[colchar]

Where does Lupul stand?

In front of the x-ray machine apparently.

 

[Durkin67]

Monahan for Gardiner/Lupul? Looooooooool.

Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin? LOOOOL

Franson and Lombardi for Brett Lebda and Slaney? LOOOOL


Point: there is precedent for deals like this. Its about meeting the other teams' needs as well as serving your own. You accomplish that by making available assets they need and having a willingness to eat cap, a new CBA device that gives teams greater flexibility to make trades such as this happen. CGY has an imbalance in terms of depth at FWD vs D. and they lack veteran leadership that can score.

This is Sean Monahan we are talking about, not John Tavares.

 

[Durkin67]

and your opinion is we can get him for the pkg you offered and i'm not presenting it as fact i'm merely saying the same reason both of us want to keep him is the same reason the flames would want him

if i'm Burke and the Leafs came calling on Monahan the asking price is Rielly plus and the plus is because i have no reason to trade him and because you're the one initiating the trade discussions

you're the type of fan that wants these type of players but doesn't want to finish low enough to draft them and think you can deal an expendable pkg to trade for them

everyone's tradeable but teams arn't rushing to move talented character gritty hard working kids just to help us out

We disagree.

 

[pucci2001]

Monahan+first for Kessel and Gardiner. Do you guys do it?

 

[Durkin67]

and your opinion is we can get him for the pkg you offered and i'm not presenting it as fact i'm merely saying the same reason both of us want to keep him is the same reason the flames would want him

if i'm Burke and the Leafs came calling on Monahan the asking price is Rielly plus and the plus is because i have no reason to trade him and because you're the one initiating the trade discussions

you're the type of fan that wants these type of players but doesn't want to finish low enough to draft them and think you can deal an expendable pkg to trade for them

everyone's tradeable but teams arn't rushing to move talented character gritty hard working kids just to help us out

Your assumption is that Monahan, a likely career 2C, means more to CGY than a veteran leader with a discounted contract, a likely all star calibre offensive D man still years away from his best days, and a very good 2 way centerman with size who can play up and down your lineup at wing and centre. I disagree.

You contend the Leafs have comparable forward depth. I named numerous former fist rounders and high end prospects. You reply with Nylander. Thats a short list, and a weak position to argue from.

You also assume that the discussion begins with Nonis blurting out something like "I really want Monahan, how much would he cost"? thats like the opposite of effective negotiation. You start by having CGY discuss their plans for their cap space, as well as how they view their organisational needs. You then show your hand and who you are making available and how those pieces stack up against their needs. The last thing you talk about is who you are interested in acquiring. Moahan is but one of several options.

The kind of fan I am is one who believes you ALWAYS draft BPA and then deal from a position of strength in order to create the organisational balance you need. Burke also embraces this strategy, as do most NHL executives. And yes, you are correct; I am the type of fan who believes intentionally sucking for a shot at a prospect robs your entire brand of its integrity. Guilty.

The final fallacy you present, being that any other team would "help us out" is actually laughable. It has nothing to do with anything of the sort, nor have I ever presented this argument. Its about meeting your suitor's needs as well as your own. Thats how good trades are made.

We could do this all day and it won't amount to anything. These are my final thoughts on the matter, and Monahan isn't the only option. CGY has tons of depth, far more than Toronto contrary to your belief. Lupul is a very good player with a strong leadership component to his game. He's had horrible luck in Toronto with injuries. Lupul with a 2 million dollar discount, along with a potential blue chip D man with all star potential, and a gritty, talented utility forward is interesting to any team with a glut of talented forward prospects, cap to burn, no offensive D in the pipeline and a long term injury to who is their longest serving centreman.

Give yourself the last word, but please, make it relevant. So far, your argument is based on logical fallacy, rhetoric, and personal opinion presented as fact. Dig a little deeper...

 

[thewave]

In the press box, with a first aid kit beside him at all times.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Monahan+first for Kessel and Gardiner. Do you guys do it?

No that's insane.

Calgary is not looking right now like a top 10 pick and I think Gardiner = CGY 1st as things stand right now.

Monahan <<<< Kessel

So you're massively getting sodomized trading Kessel AND Gardiner for Monahan and a 1st.

 

[zeke]

When you look at last night, after Randy switched the lines again, and realized that our 2nd line wingers were Winnik and Clarkson.....well, you realize pretty quick that Lupul is not a guy we should be trading.

 

[Morbo]

Nylander will take Lupul's spot for next season.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Can someone tell me why Calgary would trade Monahan? Are you guys serious?

 

[zeke]

Nylander will take Lupul's spot for next season.

because we're not allowed to have both.

 

[LeafalCrusader]

We're never going anywhere with this core. We need to start thinking long term and look to unload some of these fat contracts. Lupul and Phaneuf should be the first to go.

 

[Morbo]

because we're not allowed to have both.

Lupul is good but made of crackers. There is a reason he's been traded so many times. If we get a deal like the rumoured Toffoli swap from the offseason, you do it. Unfortunately the Kings came to their senses.

 

[jcfogerty]

The often injured Joffrey Lupul is once again on the IR. His health has always been a concern but at least when he was in the lineup you could count on him being a difference maker and major contributor to the team. It wasn't too long ago that I would have argued that Lupul was the most important forward on the roster. Clutch scoring and a high compete level had me thinking future captain but after last season and what he's shown so far this season he seems like a completely different guy than the player who came into town with a huge chip on his shoulder and a lot to prove. When his contract extension was announced (5 years @ around $26mil) I thought it was a great signing but now I'm not so sure. Was Lupul's elite play just a flash in the pan or is he still capable of being that player?

in the hospital waiting room