Where do you rank Ray Bourque all time?

Where do you rank Ray Bourque all time?


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    108

Fenway

HF Bookie and Bruins Historian
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Sep 26, 2007
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Cambridge, MA
Yes indeedy. Charles Adams, founder of the Bruins an extremely interesting guy, amusing. Grocery store magnate. First National. Had this "thing" about the color brown. First Nationals colors... all his employee's, dressed in brown; delivery wagons? Brown. Horses that pulled them? Had to be brown. All the upholstery in Adams household? Brown. Every stick of it. Plates, cups, saucers.... His suits? Brown. Ties? Every single one of them, brown. Shoes & boots... every single pair brown... I rather get the impression based on what Ive read about him that he made Adrian Monk.... Felix Unger's obsessive compulsive disorders seem mild in comparison. Something very endearing about that kind of eccentricity but I digress... Ha?.....

There was also quite the rivalry between Boston & Toronto, between Art Ross & Conn Smythe, the two men detesting each other, tonnes of rather hysterical stories, encounters, disagreements between the 2 over the years... the rivalry running pretty much right through into the 50's before Boston kinda fell off the map, Toronto back on it, then in 67 when the wheels completely fell off in Leafland Boston ascendant & that rivalry like Toronto & Montreal pretty much done, an ode to the past that only older generations have any real memory of; Boston vs Montreal kicking in again from the late 50's, very much alive even to this day despite the changes wrought on the business side, very near impossibility of building & keeping Dynastys' together, Montreal not the organization it once was.... Decent rivalry between NY & Boston as well which is transcendent of just hockey of course. Always loved the Bruins as yes, absolute "gamers" even when they were perennial doormats. Always interesting rosters.

@Killion The Somerville Times Historical Fact of the Week – January 22

Ottawa Citizen - Google News Archive Search

His son Weston had no use for groceries and was more interested in running the Boston Stock Exchange and his grandson Weston, Jr just wanted to sail boats.

The Bruins had become the primary family business and faced with the WHA and the cost of building a new arena Weston, Jr sold the team to the owners of Channel 38 who then flipped the team to a hot dog salesman from Buffalo....



 
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Laveuglette

Le meilleur receveur de passes de tous les temps
Apr 5, 2011
4,314
1,793
Quebec
5th among players who played post-expansion imo. (before it's too hard to compare imo)

Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Bourque
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
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So that means that you aren't serious, now? Is that only applied retrospectively?
It was in the original post too.

Of course I wasn't serious, because I haven't been to every city in the country and can't compare their relative snootiness (and never even heard of Greenwich, CT). In my experience, Bostonians eclipse everyone, including residents of Hoboken, NJ.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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It was in the original post too.

Of course I wasn't serious, because I haven't been to every city in the country and can't compare their relative snootiness (and never even heard of Greenwich, CT). In my experience, Bostonians eclipse everyone, including residents of Hoboken, NJ.

the snooty parts of Mass are Cambridge, The Cape and the islands (Marthas Vineyard, Nantucket and Chappaquiddick).

Boston is anything but snooty.

You want to see snooty, go to Manhattan or Newport RI or Greenwich CT. Greenwich and Newport especially are the poster kids for New England aristocracy.
 
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Staniowski

Registered User
Jan 13, 2018
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It was in the original post too.

Of course I wasn't serious, because I haven't been to every city in the country and can't compare their relative snootiness (and never even heard of Greenwich, CT). In my experience, Bostonians eclipse everyone, including residents of Hoboken, NJ.

Greenwich is an outer suburb of NYC, it's quite well known due to its extreme wealth. Greenwich - along with its neighbouring towns - are the CT part of the "Tri-State" Area.
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
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How many players are a first team all star in their first AND last season in a 20+ year career? outside of Gordie Howe no other player has had that kind of longevity as an elite player. Maybe the second most complete player of all time when you account for durability and consistency?
 
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jghockey

Registered User
Aug 14, 2018
204
38
Raymond Bourque was the Wayne Gretzky of NHL Defensemen. I'm glad that he won a Stanley Cup before retirement.
 

Tuna Tatarrrrrr

Here Is The Legendary Rat Of HFBoards! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Jun 13, 2012
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Considering he is the second best defenseman of all time behind Orr, I'd say he is top 15 for sure, maybe top 10.
 

Wrath

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
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Greenwich is an outer suburb of NYC, it's quite well known due to its extreme wealth. Greenwich - along with its neighbouring towns - are the CT part of the "Tri-State" Area.
To give even more context. Many of the top hedge funds in America are actually based out of Greenwich rather than NYC proper.

The idea is that once bankers/traders/portfolio managers are successful enough in NYC they move out to Greenwich....
 

MarkusNaslund19

Registered User
Dec 28, 2005
5,451
7,754
No there isn't. Not if you're dismissing team accomplishments outright.

I find it mindblowing how people who are regularly engaged in award-counting, dismiss these awards (Norrises, Cups, and Olympic Gold) completely when it suits them.

There is only one advantage Bourque has on Lidstrom: he is Canadian. But we've been through this many times already. No need for another round.
Your agenda is showing.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,211
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"There is only one advantage Bourque has on Lidstrom: he is Canadian."

That, and the three more 1st-All Star team selections for Bourque, seven more 1st/2nd-All Star team selections for Bourque, and Bourque's leading his team in scoring five times (vs. zero for Lidstrom). There's also the fact that Bourque was simultaneously the top offensive and defensive player on his team for about half his career, which Lidstrom never was.

But he was Canadian, so it's all a charade.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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"There is only one advantage Bourque has on Lidstrom: he is Canadian."

That, and the three more 1st-All Star team selections for Bourque, seven more 1st/2nd-All Star team selections for Bourque, and Bourque's leading his team in scoring five times (vs. zero for Lidstrom). There's also the fact that Bourque was simultaneously the top offensive and defensive player on his team for about half his career, which Lidstrom never was.

But he was Canadian, so it's all a charade.

should we tell him that Bourque has more career assists than Lidstrom does points?

or that Bourque career is +120 higher than Lidstrom in only 50 more games, while playing throughout the 80s
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
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should we tell him that Bourque has more career assists than Lidstrom does points?

or that Bourque career is +120 higher than Lidstrom in only 50 more games, while playing throughout the 80s
Each was the best defenceman of their respective eras, but Lidstrom didn't really blossom until his mid to late twenties, whereas Bourque was a superstar from pretty much day one. Each was named a first team all star in their forties, which is extremely impressive and Lidstrom managed to bag one more Norris trophy. I think its safe to say that Lidstrom has Bourque beat from age 35 onward but Bourque has him clearly beat in the twenties(Bourque joined the league at 18, Lidstrom at 21). Early to mid 30s are a wash for me.....
 

scott clam

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Sep 12, 2018
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I will also maintain that Bourque had tougher competion for his position in his prime than Lidstrom did, though I will admit to an era bias.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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I will also maintain that Bourque had tougher competion for his position in his prime than Lidstrom did, though I will admit to an era bias.
I feel the same way, though. I mean, his career overlaps with prime Chelios, end-of-prime Potvin, prime Howe, prime MacInnis, prime Leetch, prime Lidstrom, prime Coffey, end-of-prime Robinson, and others, while also being subject to the weirdest Norris-voting stretch in recollection with Carlyle, Wilson, and Langway pulling down 4 Norris' from his prime despite his excellent two-way play versus the winners.
 

Sentinel

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May 26, 2009
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"There is only one advantage Bourque has on Lidstrom: he is Canadian."

That, and the three more 1st-All Star team selections for Bourque, seven more 1st/2nd-All Star team selections for Bourque, and Bourque's leading his team in scoring five times (vs. zero for Lidstrom). There's also the fact that Bourque was simultaneously the top offensive and defensive player on his team for about half his career, which Lidstrom never was.

But he was Canadian, so it's all a charade.
Now you're punishing Lidstrom for not playing on shit teams like Bourque did? How many times did Bourque lead THE AVALANCHE in scoring? How many times was Bourque the top "offensive and defensive player" on THE AVALANCHE? That would be a little more in "apples to apples."

Lidstrom was by far the better defenseman of the two and a better playoff performer to boot. He also had more Norrises and greater international success. But... OMG he hit less than Bourque! So he lost a Norris to Blake. Alrightie...

Yes, the Canadian sentiment stays.
 

scott clam

Registered User
Sep 12, 2018
1,108
532
Trophy counting only gets you so far, kindof like career stats. Lidstrom does have the edge on Norrises, but Bourque was a Hart finalist twice, in an era where this was basically unheard of for a defenseman. Now obviously no one is beating out Wayne in '87 but in 1990 he loses by a coinflip to Messier, who had the much sexier media narrative in his favour(not to say he didn't deserve it, that's a whole other thread).

Now does all that mean that Bourque was the better player? Not necessarily, but it certainly helps his case. Just as Lidstrom's two extra Norrises help his.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
7,576
10,182
Melonville
The title says it all. I personally rank him 2nd in defensemen behind Orr, and top 10 among all players (including goaltender).

His career was not just “longevity”, but he was consistently one of the top defensemen’s in the league from the day he put on his uniform to raising the cup in Colorado. He also had a great peak, with couple MVP-calibre seasons (one in which he should have won over Messier).

I think he is somewhat underrated in hfboards (maybe not underrated but he seems to not get the recognition that he deserves). Discuss!
Well, for whatever it's worth (according to my current draft of the top 120 players of all time) I have Bourque ranked 27th overall.
 

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