Where do you rank Ray Bourque all time?

Where do you rank Ray Bourque all time?


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Ivan13

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May 3, 2011
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Ok I'll bite. Would you care to elaborate on why Lidströms competition were weaker (Chara, Niedermayer, Pronger, Stevens, Keith etc.)?
Chara as good as he is isn't Chelios, Coffey or Potvin and he came into his own as Lidstrom was trending downwards, Niedermayer I find one of the more overrated players in recent history. He didn't become the Niedermayer people see when they think about him until he left for California. Pronger, while great and outright dominant at times spent a decent amount of games on the shelf, thus removing himself from the conversation, and he, at least to me was extremely volatile in terms of play, when at his best he was a dominant force, but it often happened he was uneven. Stevens was great obviously, but I believe he lacked stats to ever be considered a real threat in the Norris voting. Keith's rise to fame came when Lidas was walking off the stage.

I would rate Coffey, Potvin, Leetch, Langway, Robinson, Chelios as a more difficult group to dominate against.
 

Ivan13

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Zagreb, Croatia
Ray Bourque was a tremendous player yet I could make the case he is the 4th best Bruins defenseman of all time.

Orr is #1 and then the fun begins. Eddie Shore was the dominant NHL player in the late 20's and most of the 30's. Today you have Zdeno Chara - and all three won the Cup as a Bruin.

Shore was borderline insane - the story of him missing a train and then taking a car from Boston to Montreal in a blizzard is legendary.




I don't think there's anything that would put Chara above Raymond. None whatsoever.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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I don't think there's anything that would put Chara above Raymond. None whatsoever.

[facetious] except for captaining a cup [/facetious]

in all seriousness though, in their respective primes, Chara was better defensively. The combination he had of size, skill and physicality arguably hadn't been seen before in the NHL. Guys as big as he is aren't supposed to be able to skate as well as he could.

Overall, its easily Bourque though. Which is no slight to Chara and the great career he had as a Bruin.

Really it speaks more to the Bruins all time defense. I would accept an argument that Bourque is the 3rd best they've had after Orr and Shore. But the order is basically locked in at Orr - Bouque - Shore - Chara - Park - Clapper
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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[facetious] except for captaining a cup [/facetious]

in all seriousness though, in their respective primes, Chara was better defensively. The combination he had of size, skill and physicality arguably hadn't been seen before in the NHL. Guys as big as he is aren't supposed to be able to skate as well as he could.

Overall, its easily Bourque though. Which is no slight to Chara and the great career he had as a Bruin.

Really it speaks more to the Bruins all time defense. I would accept an argument that Bourque is the 3rd best they've had after Orr and Shore. But the order is basically locked in at Orr - Bouque - Shore - Chara - Park - Clapper

Yeah, Bostons' pretty much built its reputation as The Big Bad Bruins on the Blue-Line, since 1924, 14 Norris Winners, 16 HHOF players inducted, not a period in their history really when they didnt have at least one of the best Defencemen in the League. Even during the lean or "lost years". Some excellent & underrated, largely forgotten 2 way forwards as well. My Top 5 Bruins Defenceman, where I'd rank them - Orr, Shore, Bourque, Park, Boivin... THEN Chara.... then Flaman, Sweeney, Hitchman & so on.... I'm sure you may suggest Ive underrated Chara, but no, dont think so. Gimme Park or Boivin over Z please & thanks & no, not about to take his game apart in order to explain why I'd go with Park & Boivin ahead of him.

Fact is you could give me any two of these guys beyond Orr, or even one of them who I could pair up with a journeyman like a Bart Crashley or whomever.... and we could go a lot deeper to like 15 or 20 All Time Best and I'd be totally confident, comfortable. Its sort of like the Habs, that putting on the bleu-blanc-rouge is magic turning the mediocre into magicians whereas with Boston, same thing but limited to Defence, the Blue Line. Crashley, or an Ian Turnbull or whomever, had they dawned the Spoked Wheel, that JuJu woulda kicked in see? Coulda been contenders... History, tradition of excellence that players want to try & live up to.... I wish I could say the same thing about ownership, Coaching & Management when it comes to the Broons.
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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Yeah, Bostons' pretty much built its reputation as The Big Bad Bruins on the Blue-Line, since 1924, 14 Norris Winners, 16 HHOF players inducted, not a period in their history really when they didnt have at least one of the best Defencemen in the League. Even during the lean or "lost years". Some excellent & underrated, largely forgotten 2 way forwards as well. My Top 5 Bruins Defenceman, where I'd rank them - Orr, Shore, Bourque, Park, Boivin... THEN Chara... then Flaman, Sweeney, Hitchman & so on.... I'm sure you may suggest Ive underrated Chara, but no, dont think so. Gimme Park or Boivin over Z please & thanks & no, not about to take his game apart in order to explain why I'd go with Park & Boivin ahead of him.

Fact is you could give me any two of these guys beyond Orr, or even one of them who I could pair up with a journeyman like a Bart Crashley or whomever.... and we could go a lot deeper to like 15 or 20 All Time Best and I'd be totally confident, comfortable. Its sort of like the Habs, that putting on the bleu-blanc-rouge is magic turning the mediocre into magicians whereas with Boston, same thing but limited to Defence, the Blue Line. Crashley, or an Ian Turnbull or whomever, had they dawned the Spoked Wheel, that JuJu woulda kicked in see? Coulda been contenders... History, tradition of excellence that players want to try & live up to.... I wish I could say the same thing about ownership, Coaching & Management when it comes to the Broons.

that's half the fun. Outside of the holy trinity, Orr-Bourque-Shore, you can make a valid argument for any order with Park, Chara, Clapper, Hitchman, etc.

agree about 2 way guys as well, like a Middleton, Axelsson, etc.

The Bruins identity and fanbase has always been built around loving the dirty work. They want you to hustle, give it all, fight, claw...basically its a love of blue collar hockey. No one will out work or out tough us.

This is probably an entire thread onto itself, but it's probably a reaction to the Canadiens rivalry. The Canadiens were always seen as the small, high skill team, so makes sense the Bruins and their fans would gravitate to the opposite of that...tough, gritty, hard nosed. That plus Boston being a tough, blue collar city
 
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Killion

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that's half the fun. Outside of the holy trinity, Orr-Bourque-Shore, you can make a valid argument for any order with Park, Chara, Clapper, Hitchman, etc.

agree about 2 way guys as well, like a Middleton, Axelsson, etc.

The Bruins identity and fanbase has always been built around loving the dirty work. They want you to hustle, give it all, fight, claw...basically its a love of blue collar hockey. No one will out work or out tough us.

This is probably an entire thread onto itself, but it's probably a reaction to the Canadiens rivalry. The Canadiens were always seen as the small, high skill team, so makes sense the Bruins and their fans would gravitate to the opposite of that...tough, gritty, hard nosed. That plus Boston being a tough, blue collar city

Yes indeedy. Charles Adams, founder of the Bruins an extremely interesting guy, amusing. Grocery store magnate. First National. Had this "thing" about the color brown. First Nationals colors... all his employee's, dressed in brown; delivery wagons? Brown. Horses that pulled them? Had to be brown. All the upholstery in Adams household? Brown. Every stick of it. Plates, cups, saucers.... His suits? Brown. Ties? Every single one of them, brown. Shoes & boots... every single pair brown... I rather get the impression based on what Ive read about him that he made Adrian Monk.... Felix Unger's obsessive compulsive disorders seem mild in comparison. Something very endearing about that kind of eccentricity but I digress... Ha?.....

There was also quite the rivalry between Boston & Toronto, between Art Ross & Conn Smythe, the two men detesting each other, tonnes of rather hysterical stories, encounters, disagreements between the 2 over the years... the rivalry running pretty much right through into the 50's before Boston kinda fell off the map, Toronto back on it, then in 67 when the wheels completely fell off in Leafland Boston ascendant & that rivalry like Toronto & Montreal pretty much done, an ode to the past that only older generations have any real memory of; Boston vs Montreal kicking in again from the late 50's, very much alive even to this day despite the changes wrought on the business side, very near impossibility of building & keeping Dynastys' together, Montreal not the organization it once was.... Decent rivalry between NY & Boston as well which is transcendent of just hockey of course. Always loved the Bruins as yes, absolute "gamers" even when they were perennial doormats. Always interesting rosters.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Dec 11, 2017
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Yes indeedy. Charles Adams, founder of the Bruins an extremely interesting guy, amusing. Grocery store magnate. First National. Had this "thing" about the color brown. First Nationals colors... all his employee's, dressed in brown; delivery wagons? Brown. Horses that pulled them? Had to be brown. All the upholstery in Adams household? Brown. Every stick of it. Plates, cups, saucers.... His suits? Brown. Ties? Every single one of them, brown. Shoes & boots... every single pair brown... I rather get the impression based on what Ive read about him that he made Adrian Monk.... Felix Unger's obsessive compulsive disorders seem mild in comparison. Something very endearing about that kind of eccentricity but I digress... Ha?.....

There was also quite the rivalry between Boston & Toronto, between Art Ross & Conn Smythe, the two men detesting each other, tonnes of rather hysterical stories, encounters, disagreements between the 2 over the years... the rivalry running pretty much right through into the 50's before Boston kinda fell off the map, Toronto back on it, then in 67 when the wheels completely fell off in Leafland Boston ascendant & that rivalry like Toronto & Montreal pretty much done, an ode to the past that only older generations have any real memory of; Boston vs Montreal kicking in again from the late 50's, very much alive even to this day despite the changes wrought on the business side, very near impossibility of building & keeping Dynastys' together, Montreal not the organization it once was.... Decent rivalry between NY & Boston as well which is transcendent of just hockey of course. Always loved the Bruins as yes, absolute "gamers" even when they were perennial doormats. Always interesting rosters.

the same fan mentallity expands to all Boston teams too. The Celtics were always loved for defense and hard work, like in the 80s when the Lakers rivalry came back it was the hard working Celtics vs the glitz and glamour of Showtime.

With the Sox, its all about having dirt dogs. If your uniform is clean, you aren't trying hard enough.

It's one of the things I love about being a Boston fan, is you dont have to be skilled to be a legend or loved. If you give it your all, you'll be loved by the fans.

It's why Terry O'Reilly's number hangs in the rafters.

And why guys like Lucic, Thornton, Cashman, Johnathan, Stock get elevated to cult status
 
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Sentinel

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that's half the fun. Outside of the holy trinity, Orr-Bourque-Shore, you can make a valid argument for any order with Park, Chara, Clapper, Hitchman, etc.

agree about 2 way guys as well, like a Middleton, Axelsson, etc.

The Bruins identity and fanbase has always been built around loving the dirty work. They want you to hustle, give it all, fight, claw...basically its a love of blue collar hockey. No one will out work or out tough us.

This is probably an entire thread onto itself, but it's probably a reaction to the Canadiens rivalry. The Canadiens were always seen as the small, high skill team, so makes sense the Bruins and their fans would gravitate to the opposite of that...tough, gritty, hard nosed. That plus Boston being a tough, blue collar city
You and I must know two different Bostons. The one I know is the very definition of "East Coast elite" and "New England aristocracy."
 

Felidae

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Sep 30, 2016
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Here's a comparison between Bourque and Harvey's hart and Norris finishes

Bourque

Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7, 7
Hart finishes: 2, 2 4, 5, 5 6, 8, 10,


Harvey

Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
Hart finishes: 2, 3, 5, 5, 5

Norris wasn't created the other two occasions he was a first team all star along with Red Kelly, so I'll assume he would have received two additional first or second Norris finishes.

In that case, he ends up having one less the amount of first and second place finishes Bourque has. While having 2 more Norris trophies and potentially 4.

So does Bourque's 3-7th place Norris finishes compensate for that? I mean, that's another ten years of excellence. From my perspective, seems hard to justify placing Harvey above Bourque.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Here's a comparison between Bourque and Harvey's hart and Norris finishes

Bourque

Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7, 7
Hart finishes: 2, 2 4, 5, 5 6, 8, 10,


Harvey

Norris finishes: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
Hart finishes: 2, 3, 5, 5, 5

Norris wasn't created the other two occasions he was a first team all star along with Red Kelly, so I'll assume he would have received two additional first or second Norris finishes.

In that case, he ends up having one less the amount of first and second place finishes Bourque has. While having 2 more Norris trophies and potentially 4.

So does Bourque's 3-7th place Norris finishes compensate for that? I mean, that's another ten years of excellence. From my perspective, seems hard to justify placing Harvey above Bourque.

By this metric" Bourque is better than Orr, right?
 

Felidae

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Sep 30, 2016
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By this metric" Bourque is better than Orr, right?

Well, no. Because Orr reached a level of domination that surpassed either player.

Harvey with 2 and potentially 4 norris trophies more than Bourque is far different than Orr having 3 Norris trophies, 3 Harts, 2 Art Ross trophies, 2 Smythe's and a Pearson over Bourque.

Basically, the more impressive prime far outweighs the longer prime in this case.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Well, no. Because Orr reached a level of domination that surpassed either player.

Harvey with 2 and potentially 4 norris trophies more than Bourque is far different than Orr having 3 Norris trophies, 3 Harts, 2 Art Ross trophies, 2 Smythe's and a Pearson over Bourque.

Basically, the more impressive prime far outweighs the longer prime in this case.

Thats kind of my point. Those who rank Harvey over Bourque do so because of the quality, rather than length of his prime. This is backed up by Norris voting, where Harvey beat the competition by huge margins every year during his prime, except the one he was injured.
 
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Admiral Awesome

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Jun 8, 2015
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Thats kind of my point. Those who rank Harvey over Bourque do so because of the quality, rather than length of his prime. This is backed up by Norris voting, where Harvey beat the competition by huge margins every year during his prime, except the one he was injured.
To be fair, Bourque was destroying the competition in Norris voting for a time, as well. In '87, he received something like 52 of 54 possible 1st place votes, if I'm not mistaken, and he was the unanimous winner in '90. Not saying Bourque was superior to Harvey as I never saw the latter play. I'm just saying.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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At some point you have to watch the players play, and to me Doug Harvey looked considerably more talented than Ray Bourque.Despite the small sample size of what I saw of Harvey, it was transparent.He had much better mobility and puck control, better vision and understanding of the geometry of the ice.By all accounts he was more physical than Bourque too.

Harvey is one of those guys who I'm 99.99999% sure you take him from 1956, put him in a time machine and bring him to 2018, give him modern equipment within 15 minutes and throw him into an NHL game, and he would become the best player on the ice within 20 minutes of adjustment.Natural is natural.
 
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Felidae

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Sep 30, 2016
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Here are the gaps both Bourque and Harvey won by over the runner up for the Norris.

Bourque

1986-87

Vote%
1st 98.52
2nd 50.74

1st place votes
1st 52
2nd 1

1987-88

Vote%
1st 77.28
2nd 39.37

1st place votes
1st 36
2nd 13

1989-90

Vote%
1st 100
2nd 40.32

1st place votes
1st 63
2nd 0

1990-91

vote%
1st 77.88
2nd 69.09

1st place votes
1st 35
2nd 27

1993-94

vote%
1st 73.70
2nd 72.22

1st place votes
1st 26
2nd 24


Doug Harvey

1954-55

Vote%
1st 38.74
2nd 27.48

1st place votes
1st 40
2nd 23

1955-56

vote%
1st 53.61
2nd 20.27

1st place votes
1st 78
2nd 16

1956-57

vote%
1st 54.64
2nd 14.43

1st place votes
1st 83
2nd 20

1959-60

vote%
1st 49.91
2nd 15.27

1st place votes
1st 66
2nd 15

1960-61

vote%
1st 57.86
2nd 18.57

1st place votes
1st 84
2nd 33

1961-62

vote%
1st 43.22
2nd 19.92

1st place votes
1st 83
2nd 2



I can see why people rank Harvey higher.
 

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