Where did this Athanasiou go?

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Redder Winger, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. NEWing

    NEWing Registered User

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    The only way to get prime assets, is to sell what has value. Everyone over 26 has contracts that kill their value. That is the reality we face, nothing is going to fix that. Hopefully Nyquist will be moved at next years trade deadline.

    Helm and Abdelkader had value when they were still RFAs. Many thought they were our future core, when in reality they were always going to be 3rd or 4th line players. Turgeon could replace them for a fraction of their cost.

    AA never has had the drive to be outstanding. I find it very telling he can't elevate his game, while Larkin has.
     
  2. TheMule93

    TheMule93 On a mule rides the swindler

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    the ideal time to trade him is now while he is still young with an uncertain future. teams will gamble on his great hockey skill and skating.
     
  3. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    You're not going to get much for him now.
    You'd be lucky to get a 2nd for him. So if that's worth it, take it and run.
    Because if Blashill's back, he's going to be another year older in the same spot.
     
  4. TatarTangle

    TatarTangle Registered User

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    That's juicy, coming from someone who literally everyone knows cherry picks stats and argues just for the sake of it because for whatever reason, you just can't ever be wrong.

    You want to throw out some 18 game sample? Great. He skated hard for that stretch. Is it a coincidence he played great when he skates hard? Probably not. He's talented. Is it a coincidence when he floats around and does ****ing circles in the defensive zone his IT drops and he goes through 10 game stretches with 0 (zero) points? Probably not.

    P/60 or whatever small, sample sized stat you choose from isn't going to change AA arguably having the worst work ethic on the team. But you'd think someone in his situation, with a contract talk coming up, would be working his ass off regardless of linemates or IT, to prove Holland wrong, shove it in his face, and demand even more money. You'd think.

    So yea, AA is misued here. They want him to be something he isn't smart enough to be and it's silly to ask him otherwise when he's shown no interest in doing so. Just let the guy score goals, but he needs something around him to do that which the Wings don't have much of. Elite talent on the back end.
     
  5. NEWing

    NEWing Registered User

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    Would you take a mid to late first round for AA?
     
  6. Red Stanley

    Red Stanley Registered User

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    I would in a heartbeat. Don't think anyone will offer that, unfortunately.
     
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  7. NEWing

    NEWing Registered User

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    I would take it in a heartbeat as well. I was surprised what we got for Tatar and Smith, so one can only hope.

    He might be the kind of player a contending team might want to gamble on, especially if they can negotiate the next contract prior to the trade.
     
  8. TheMule93

    TheMule93 On a mule rides the swindler

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    turning a 4th rounder into a first rounder would be awesome value
     
  9. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    He doesn't get a chance because he doesn't ever take it. He will look amazing for a game or two then he will just float. Its amazing that the games where he ends with a minus in the plus minus Detroit won only 4 of the 28 games. When he doesn't care its like Detroit is playing a man down and other teams take advantage.

    As for the coach, given that there are rumors he doesn't like to stick to game plans, I can see why the coach may not want to play him. All the evidence points to that being the case, unless Blash in the locker room points at AA and says 'when you're on the ice I want you to look bored and not do anything'.

    I am sure playing with Larkin is fun, but, again he has to earn those minutes, and only playing 40 seconds of your 15 minutes of ice time isn't the way to earn them.

    What chemistry? Last night's game was perfect example of AA. He wants to do it all by himself, so instead of making a pass he is much more inclined to try to go end to end and beat all the players on the ice. And oh look it failed for the 1000th time and now there is 20 seconds of OT squandered.

    As for the sky? No his limit seems to be middle 6 winger, good for between 0.4ppg and 0.6ppg. And that's fine, but don't blame the coach for him not reaching is potential, AA is AA's biggest hurdle.
     
  10. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    All these people liking your post - when it's factually off the mark.

    The fact is, when AA played in the top 6 - he was good.
    Very good. Point-per-game good.
    The Wings won more than they lost.

    So all this "he didn't earn it" or he "didn't take his chance" or "grab his cheese" **** is bull****.

    Tyler Bertuzzi had 2 points in 15 games when he got promoted.
    He'd done nothing to earn it.
    And when he struggled at times, he kept his job.
     
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  11. SoupGuru

    SoupGuru Registered User

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    Production and effort are different things.
     
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  12. TheMule93

    TheMule93 On a mule rides the swindler

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    Athanasiou and Bertuzzi both started in the bottom 6. One tried hard and earned top 6 minutes. The other mailed it in.
     
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  13. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    Because Bertuzzi struggles were growing pains, not him coasting and not giving a ****. And you are inferring a relationship that will be hard to backup. When AA started the season skating hard he was given more minutes and played well. But, the second he started coasting his minutes dropped and his production dropped. And lets not use some contrived definition of top 6 minutes that you can cherry pick from. Top 6 minutes for forwards on the Wing was ~16 minutes a night on average. AA played 23 games with 16 minutes or more, which is a third of the games he played.

    In those games he has 18 points, which isn't bad if you look at time as a group, but 13 of those points came in 6 games. Leaving him 17 games where he got top 6 minutes and only had 5 points.This means he scored 72% of his top 6 points in 26% of the games he played in the top 6. He is also -6 in those 23 games and in the 17 games where he scored 5 points he is -13. Say what you will about +/- but he was on the ice for a ton of goals and he was much more likely to be have a negative +/- in these 23 games when he wasn't scoring. Yet, when he was scoring he was almost always +. Not hard to see the connection; AA would play hard and that would mean he would score and the other team wouldn't. But when he wasn't engaged he was detriment to the team and the other teams were scoring more. Finally over those 23 games they only won 10 of them, which is about a 43% winning percentage. This isn't exactly world burning and isn't significantly higher than how much Detroit won in the rest of the season.

    But hey lets cherry pick some other stats:

    Bertuzzi had 19 games getting top 6 minutes, in those game he had 19 points, which is better than AA 18 in 23 thus is much more deserving of top 6 minutes. Amirite?

    Or when XO played 8 minutes or less the red wings have an 80% winning rate.

    Whenever David Booth scored the Wings had a 75% winning rate, he needs top 6 minutes!

    Seriously we can cherry pick stats from small sample sizes and make grandiose statements from them. If you knew anything about how statistics actually work though, you'd know the first thing they teach you is not to cherry pick if you want to get useful information from them.
     
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  14. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    I dont think you understand what I am trying to say with my chicken/egg analogy, but it doesn't matter. Hopefully AA/the Wings get it together, though my gut tells me that in a year from now he wont be here.

    Also, I don't believe promotions/demotions are random, it goes against basic human behavior. Everything a coach does has a motive, now the motive may be brilliant, the motive may be stupid, but there is always a motive.
     
  15. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    I think it was just so demoralizing to have Booth score that his potting one sunk our opponents into deep, crippling depressions.
     
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  16. lilidk

    lilidk Registered User

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    I can see that he is trying hard and I think phisicly he is not there yet. I like to see him stay . And like everyone here here think that Blush don't use him right.
     
  17. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    I've told you where to look.
    Andreas Athanasiou 2017-18 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com
    He goes from 12-15 minutes on L3/4 with 0 points and -3 in 4 games to Larkin's line.

    So how did he earn it?
    Where's the chicken and egg?

    On the second, longer stint, like I said, Blash had no intent of promoting AA, but Mantha got hurt.
    Red Wings' Anthony Mantha questionable for tonight
    In the two games before his promotion, AA played 8:34 and 12:35.
    You can see AA was supposed to center Booth and Frk.
    Instead he plays with Larkin in Mantha's place.

    Detroit won 4 straight games with AA going 4-1-5 with 21 shots.
    Detroit went 1-3 over the next 4, with AA going 1-3-4.
    But that was it. Blashill wasn't going to keep AA in the top 6.

    He played over 18 minutes 3 more times, here and there, the rest of the season.
     
  18. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Was Bertuzzi trying hard in January February? When he went 15 games 0-2-2 -11?
    Nah. He was doing things right. Good process. Blashill hockey.
     
  19. SoupGuru

    SoupGuru Registered User

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    Oh. My. God. I have never seen anyone so unwilling to communicate, even on these boards, and that's saying something.

    AA tries hard = more ice time
    AA slacks off = less ice time

    Why is it more complicated than that?
     
  20. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    This link does not show what I am looking at, but thanks for posting. What I want to know, is during games that AA got more minutes, how did he perform prior to the extra minutes within that game.

    As far as the bold, what I would like to see is similar stats for every player on the team. The way you present it, it appears that AA producing alone has a direct correlation with the Wings winning. What I would like to see is the variance in winning % for when AA is scoring vs not scoring, then the variance between other players.

    One could come to the conclusion, that AA scoring means that the Wings will win OR that when the Wings are scoring in general they win.

    I dont actually expect you to do this, it would take forever. But I'd be interested in seeing the data.
     
  21. TCNorthstars

    TCNorthstars Registered User

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    From Tohper Scott at theathletic paywall:
    View from a coach: Red Wings gave it their all, but they...

    The relevant parts to AA:
    Talks about Z's consistency game in and game out, then...

    "On the other hand, the most frustrating aspect of coaching is dealing with players who are consistently inconsistent. These are the players who make the same mistakes over and over, whether it be with their compete level or with plays they make during the game. Nothing gets a coach more fired up in the video room than watching that player — because it seems like your message is going in one ear and out the other.

    That guy, for me, is Andreas Athanasiou.

    I have a hard time watching Athanasiou play because there is so much ability. So much God-given talent that is wasted with a compete level like you see above. These are the kinds of players who can put coaches in a bad mood, because all we think about is what they could be, and how much they would help our team if they played to their potential.

    Athanasiou is a restricted free agent, and I honestly can’t see the Red Wings wanting to bring him back. Especially after his holdout at the beginning of this season. That set him off on the wrong foot, and while he showed spurts of brilliance during the season, he could never seem to take that next step. Watching the film, I would say it’s because of his inconsistent compete level and work ethic."
     
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  22. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    Soup you were here when Eva Unit Zero was still posting, Redder is to AA what Eva was to Hudler. Like almost to the T. They both are diehard slappies, they both cherry picked stats to make their points, and they would rather die on a hill than acknowledge they were wrong.
     
  23. NEWing

    NEWing Registered User

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    The only thing that will help AA is a change of scenery. If he can't self motivate in a contract year under Blash, he never will for this team. I agree that he is fun to watch...sometimes, but painful most of the time.

    If nothing else, he is a bad example to have around if they are willing to start bringing prospects in before they are "over ripe."

    From everything I have read, he is not a team player. Demanded a trade in junior, contract hold-out, etc. Like Drouin, it is time to move on.
     
  24. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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  25. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    That's bull****.
    If that's all it was, AA would have won his top 6 job.

    It's sad that you think disagreeing with you is unwilling to communicate.

    I keep showing you that AA's icetime had nothing to do with performance.
    I keep showing you that other players kept getting top 6 icetime when they sucked.

    But you don't want to see it.

    You just want to agree with the spoonfed opinion from a failure of a coach.
     

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