When Does the USA Surpass Canada as the #1 Hockey Country?

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Roughneck

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Rabid Ranger said:
I think the last half-dozen NHL drafts prove you wrong. The U.S. consistently places the 2nd highest numbers of players in the draft overall and in the 1st round in particular. This year could feature ten Americans picked in the 1st round alone. What other country matches that?

Well Canada has had 75 in the past 6 years (the most being 17 in 2003)
USA 35
Russia 21

Canada also has 27 top ten picks in that span, USA has 11, Russia 9.

I think we can/should all agree that the U.S. is undoubtedly cathcing up, but still has a very long way to go. Especially in the top end, and as you already mentioned in another post, the U.S. needs an Ovechkin or Crosby, something they really lack. Can Kessel be that guy, well, there is alot of debate on that.

As for your last point, this is easily looking to be the best draft year the U.S. has had, and I should also point out, that the number of first rounders the U.S. has had in the past 6 years has gone up every year (I'm pretty sure anyways).
 

Oilers Chick

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Geese_Howard said:
I know your program is garbage when compared to the rest of the world, so what your producing a couple of good players now, you guys are penciled in to win the WJ's, wow........

and what do you base this on? please give details. Also, you still didn't answer my original question.

anyways, if the USA can keep this up for more then 1 or 2 years then they will be improving, but still wont be in canada's league

If you had bothered to go back and re-read some of my previous posts, you'll notice that I mentioned that the US wasn't going to catch up to Canada anytime soon.
 

Rabid Ranger

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therealdeal said:
Well, Russia had arguably its 2 greatests prospects of all time go 1 and 2 overall, and they could be better than any of the Canadian prospects. And the Americans will probably have 1 first overall pick this year.

You see the difference?

And if its such a vast improvement, where are all these American superstars, I haven't seen or heard about them yet. I don't see any of them doing much of anything, I would agree that the last 2 or 3 draft years might still be too young, but 6 years? Where are these prospects now?


Okay, and when you get past Ovechkin and Malkin you have???????? Don't get me wrong, Ovechkin and Malkin are significantly better than anything the U.S. has to offer prospect-wise, but where's the depth? It's non-existant.
 

CSKA

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Rabid Ranger said:
Okay, and when you get past Ovechkin and Malkin you have???????? Don't get me wrong, Ovechkin and Malkin are significantly better than anything the U.S. has to offer prospect-wise, but where's the depth? It's non-existant.


na na na my friend, bad days for russia are over ! We have new arenas and hockey schools , other will build in the near future. The next superstar is in the making - watch out for Andrej Kuchin !
I think our system finally works again and we will have a strong depth in the future no doubt about that ! :teach:
 

Rabid Ranger

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Roughneck said:
Well Canada has had 75 in the past 6 years (the most being 17 in 2003)
USA 35
Russia 21

Canada also has 27 top ten picks in that span, USA has 11, Russia 9.

I think we can/should all agree that the U.S. is undoubtedly cathcing up, but still has a very long way to go. Especially in the top end, and as you already mentioned in another post, the U.S. needs an Ovechkin or Crosby, something they really lack. Can Kessel be that guy, well, there is alot of debate on that.

As for your last point, this is easily looking to be the best draft year the U.S. has had, and I should also point out, that the number of first rounders the U.S. has had in the past 6 years has gone up every year (I'm pretty sure anyways).


Here are my figures:

Number of NHL draft picks over the last six years:

Overall:

Canada: 630
U.S: 346
Russia: 167
Czech Republic: 130
Finland: 103
Sweden: 67
Slovakia: 32

1st round draft picks:

Canada: 74
U.S: 37
Czech Republic: 16
Russia: 15
Finland: 11
Slovakia: 4
Sweden: 2

I can't see how anyone can downplay the U.S. when it comes to supplying prospects, and in many cases high level prospects to the NHL.
 

Rabid Ranger

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CSKA said:
na na na my friend, bad days for russia are over ! We have new arenas and hockey schools , other will build in the near future. The next superstar is in the making - watch out for Andrej Kuchin !
I think our system finally works again and we will have a strong depth in the future no doubt about that ! :teach:

I hope that's the case. However, I'm dealing in the here and now, and it's not all that rosy for Russian prospects.
 

Fish on The Sand

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therealdeal said:
I never said that the USA was bad, they were definetly a good team that year, but the game was won on a lucky bounce, there is no argument there, that is a fact.

Has the talent level grown all that much, or has is this just happens to be a good batch? At the moment thats what it would appear to be, the US goes in spurts.
you could make the same arguement about Team Canada at the SLC Olympics in 02. Canada didn't even belong in the gold medal game.
 

Slitty

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Rabid Ranger said:
I hope that's the case. However, I'm dealing in the here and now, and it's not all that rosy for Russian prospects.


Russian prospects tend to get picked later since they play in Russia and dont get looked at as much, and are a bigger gamble in the eyes of most NHL teams since they could always choose to remain in Russia. Russian prospects, if they choose to remain in Russia also have a harder time making the NHL. Guys like Zvinovjev and Mozyakin are somewhere near the top of RSL scoring, but teams dont want to take a gamble on them because they want contracts to play in the NHL but teams want to resrve the right to send them down to the AHL if it dosen't work out.


In terms of you comments about depth, if we look it at from a hockey rather than an NHL standpoint:
ALL of Canada's play in the NHL. ALL of the USA's quality players play in the NHL. Russia, on the other hand, has quality players in the NHL (usual the top end stars are there) as well as quality players in the RSL. There are plenty of players (some never drafted) that could hold a 1st or 2nd line shift in the NHL currently playing in the RSL. There is plenty of depth, just not in the NHL.
 

salty justice

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The population of the US may be 10 times greater than Canada, but the population of Canadians living in a cold climate compared to Americans in the US is also probably 10-1.

Until the population of the US gets to the point where people need to start living in areas where backyard pond rinks are possible, I dont think the we will come close to producing the type of great hockey players Canada does.

Without that kind of awesome advantage, ice hockey is just too much money for most parents to get their kid started on in the US. It may be cheaper in Canada because there are so many rinks and players, but when theres only 1 ice rink within a 30 mile radius like in California or other areas of large populations the price of 1 season is usually 5 to 6 times the cost of a season of baseball, football, basketball, or soccer.

Sorry but I think Canada's supremacy is safe for atleast the next generation or two. A lot about the perception of the sport in the US needs to change before we ever come close.
 

BroadwayStorm

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I don't think that will ever happen, because here people gravitate towards baseball, basketball and football, in other words, our own sports, and even soccer is at a higher level here at least in minor leagues and college and highschool than I think hockey ever will.
 

Anksun

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There are (absolute minimum, take an old survey as source) 58 arenas on the island of Montreal only. And those arent even the number #1 place where hockey is play here, outside is. That's as much as it's popular over here. Those 58 arenas arent even enough for all the leagues (on all kind), if it would actually be open (example) at 11h30pm on sunday around the city, recreational leagues would use this icetime because the youngters could actually takes more in the daytime.

We loooove hockey all around the country.

Depth is where the difference is that much wide. I'll give you an example. There's an arena (just to name 1) in Brossard, "les 4 glaces" (that's close to Montreal) where a big recreational league is playing. The teams are been divided in 4 groups, A,B,C,D. Someone has used the Midget AA as an comparable previously in this thread, now i dont know how good Midget major is on the usa scale but Midget AA level guys who returned later on to play hockey would looks like "decent to ok" in that B league and "good" in the C league. That's a recreational hockey league.

My point is, catching on a country in term of top-end talent ((even this is highly discutable) isnt all. Takes 5 minutes and dress the Canada no.1 team for the next Olympics, use the very best players you would bring. Then start dressing the no.2 team and comes to me with a straight face saying this team cant win it all. They would not even be the automatic underdog against any other team than Cn-1 (on paper of course...). And you could actually go on and on. That's worth something when discussing who's the best nation at 1 sport.
 

Hawkeye8

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salty justice said:
It may be cheaper in Canada because there are so many rinks and players, but when theres only 1 ice rink within a 30 mile radius like in California or other areas of large populations the price of 1 season is usually 5 to 6 times the cost of a season of baseball, football, basketball, or soccer.

Thats not fully true. Where I live in the Bay Area, there are several rinks that are with in an hours drive. I've got 3 with in 30 minutes, at most with traffic. Logitech in San Jose is only 45 minutes way in good traffic.
 

someguy44

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Legionnaire said:
No I wasn't.


If that's the case about China though, why don't they have better football teams?


Well, they have always enjoyed watching the World Cup, but they don't really pay much attention to soccer any other time of the year. Like one poster had already pointed out, the mindset of the Chinese are more geared towards economic goals rather than atheletic ones. There isn't much money pumped into soccer developement by schools or the government. However, that has changed a bit in the last decade and I would imagine more so after China's last appearance in the World Cup.

China did make it to the last World Cup and that's a sign of improvement. Unfortunately, a lot of junior high and high schools do not have teams where one school's soccer team can play against the other school unlike in NA. I don't know about Europe since I grew up in Canada and I did play for my high school soccer team for a bit. You won't have that in China. Still, after the last WC, more Chinese parents might encourage their kids to take up soccer.
 

Chimaera

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I think a lot of people are being a bit short sighted. The US has been a very good producer of hockey players for a long time, although they have never been as good as Canada, and to a lesser extent some of the years with the Soviets/Russians. However, to say the US will never catch up is very biased and illfounded.

I respect that opinion, but I disagree. I think within the next 10-15 years, the US player production and skill level will continue to rise at the pace it is going now. It will only get better. Will they catch the Canadians? Maybe. They should at least get pretty close. Will they pass them? Most likely not. But beyond that 10-15 years, I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to invest in development like they have been.

The reason I suggest this is two fold. One, USA hockey has been extremely active in developing their younger players. USA hockey has invested a lot of money and time in improving the pipelines in the US. This funding has put a lot of new talent on the ice that wouldn't have been gaining experience in the past. Money and investment in younger players is what will continue to improve the overall talent pool of the American game. Secondly, the continued growth of NCAA hockey. NCAA hockey finally is on TV, and has a substantial following in many communities. While in the past there were solid college programs, now many new options for players to continue their sport and game have grown. Plus, college hockey has made leaps and bounds to developing potential NHL and AHL players. The top junior league in Canada is still odds on the best hockey production facility, and the place to get the most experience, but the NCAA is starting to keep more of the top American players and even bring in some Canadians. If NCAA hockey continues to grow, and gain in popularity, there are more options for the hockey players who start playing in the US to continue playing.

The reason most American athletes do well is not some inherent talent or aptitude for sports, but the prevelance of a collegiate and developmental system for them to partake. Football players from the US are good because they have options for experience and competition from High School and College. Baseball players have local teams, collegiate teams and high school teams. Basketball has AAU, High School and College. Hockey has had high school and college in the past, but not compared to what is out there now.

I think a good comparison to the US development should be soccer. USA soccer has always been decent, but lately has continued to pump funding into development at the youth level. They have had many camps and training schools to select out the top players and propel them to the international level. You see that currently with the rise of the young US soccer players. They're 8th in the world right now, which is a long way to go, but they should still continue to get better. While I don't think US soccer can catch the Brasils or the Englands anytime soon, the US funding and talent pool is going to continue to grow.


Hockey is similar to their soccer development. Except in hockey, the US is already in the top 4.

I'm not saying it will be tomorrow. I'm not saying next week. I'm saying, eventually, the US hockey production and quality of player should rival that of other nations in the world. Yes, Canda, the US and Russia (along with other countries) will all have their superstars, but I think from top to bottom the US squad will be extremely good.
 

DownFromNJ

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You guys are looking short term.

Compare US hockey in 1995 to US hockey in 2005. Look at the growth. Now think about US hockey in 2015.


Cold weather becomes less important as rinks proliferate.
 

F A N

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The answer is the USA will NEVER surpass Canada as the #1 Hockey Country. Okay that's my biased opinion.

This is still a team game so obviously, the better team will win. But if you're talking about talent, I don't see the USA coming close to Canada in the next 10-15 years. Bloodlines will be important I think, and I think US' only hope is for the kids of Canadian stars playing in the US to grow up as Americans or have mothers as Americans, and choosing to play for the US (players like Brett Hull and Deadmarsh).

Hockey is simply a bigger part of Canadian culture than the US. As evidenced by the number of stars that came out of Ornskoldsvik, Sweden, population size may not be a big factor when it comes to churning out hockey talent. US has too many other things that grab the kids attention.
 

SIBIR

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Chimaera said:
I think a good comparison to the US development should be soccer. USA soccer has always been decent, but lately has continued to pump funding into development at the youth level. They have had many camps and training schools to select out the top players and propel them to the international level. You see that currently with the rise of the young US soccer players. They're 8th in the world right now, ...

8th??? You mean the FIFA rankings. in this ranking is Mexiko 5th :biglaugh:

this ranking is NOT objective. teams like USA or Mexiko are NEVER better then: England, Portugal, Germany, Turkey, Italy,...

there are at least 20-30 better teams in soccer than USA ...
 

Slitty

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SIBIR said:
8th??? You mean the FIFA rankings. in this ranking is Mexiko 5th :biglaugh:

this ranking is NOT objective. teams like USA or Mexiko are NEVER better then: England, Portugal, Germany, Turkey, Italy,...

there are at least 20-30 better teams in soccer than USA ...


Climb out from under your rock: Turkey sucks worse than China nowdays. Portugal is probably just as good, if not worse than the USA.
 

Chimaera

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SIBIR said:
8th??? You mean the FIFA rankings. in this ranking is Mexiko 5th :biglaugh:

this ranking is NOT objective. teams like USA or Mexiko are NEVER better then: England, Portugal, Germany, Turkey, Italy,...

there are at least 20-30 better teams in soccer than USA ...


at least 20 or 30 teams?


Are you joking?

I think you'd be hard pressed to name 15 teams that are clearly better than the US.

The US beat Portugal at the last World Cup. They've played well against England. They played pretty well against Germany. As for Italy, we'll see this World Cup. while they might not advance, you can be certain one team most of the Euros did not want to face is the US. They should have been a top seed over Mexico, after having beat them this qualifying run.

The talent is in the pipelines. Both in Soccer and in other sports. When enough money is put behind a talent base, results are eventually produced. For every Claudio Reyna or Donnovan on the team now, there are at least 5-6 more coming up. No, they're not going to produce the super studs that Brazil has. However, I hope Europeans continue to discount US Soccer.


You know, you partially helped make my argument for me. A lot of Europeans have no idea what is coming in for the US. They just assume old aging development programs will continue to do well.


To say the US won't get better at a sport that a significant number of people care about is ludicrous. Hockey's only going to continue to grow in development.

Soccer is the same way. The increase in Latin population and continual stability of MLS will only add to the talent base the US has.
 

Letang fan 58

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Jovanovski = Norris said:
Canada has arguably been the #1 hockey country in the world in terms of producing the best hockey players. It has been as such since the inception of the game and despite the recent rise of European players, I don't see a country like Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia and other countries taking the lead considering that soccer is still the most popular sport in most of those countries and that their standard of living is still lower than that of Canada's.

However, the United States can potentially, and realistically, catch up soon. The population of the United States is around 300 million while the population of Canada is around 30 million. The standard of living in both country is relatively equal. The only advantage that Canada has is that hockey is still our #1 sport while it is the #4 or #5 favorite team sport in the US.

Some think the movement is already occuring with the US outputting high-profile prospects like Phil Kessel, Alvaro Montoya, Jack Johnson, Bobby Ryan, Jack Skille, Dustin Brown, Brian Lee, Rob Schremp, AJ Thelen, Ryan Suter, Zach Parise et al. Others argue that it will still take several decades for at least the US psyche about hockey to change or establish a better development system.

My question is, when do you guys think the USA will surpass Canada as the premier hockey country in the world? In both quality and quantity.

How about In your dreams? Thats about the only time it will be close.
 

SIBIR

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Chimaera said:
at least 20 or 30 teams?


Are you joking?

I think you'd be hard pressed to name 15 teams that are clearly better than the US.

The US beat Portugal at the last World Cup. They've played well against England. They played pretty well against Germany. As for Italy, we'll see this World Cup. while they might not advance, you can be certain one team most of the Euros did not want to face is the US. They should have been a top seed over Mexico, after having beat them this qualifying run.

The talent is in the pipelines. Both in Soccer and in other sports. When enough money is put behind a talent base, results are eventually produced. For every Claudio Reyna or Donnovan on the team now, there are at least 5-6 more coming up. No, they're not going to produce the super studs that Brazil has. However, I hope Europeans continue to discount US Soccer.


You know, you partially helped make my argument for me. A lot of Europeans have no idea what is coming in for the US. They just assume old aging development programs will continue to do well.


To say the US won't get better at a sport that a significant number of people care about is ludicrous. Hockey's only going to continue to grow in development.

Soccer is the same way. The increase in Latin population and continual stability of MLS will only add to the talent base the US has.


I think you are joking.

that are your facts?
only one good WC. one victory again Portugal??
and one good game again England??

S.Korea beat Italy, Spain in the last W.Cup. so they are now a top team in soccer? right?

I follow soccer for 10-12 years. and only one or two good players from US. come to my mind.

To pump money in soccer don't mean much.

I think this discussion doesn't make sense, because in the summer we will see at the world cup these games:

US - Italy

US - Czech Rep.

IMO. no chance for USA making this group.
 

J17 Vs Proclamation

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Rabid Ranger said:
Here are my figures:

Number of NHL draft picks over the last six years:

Overall:

Canada: 630
U.S: 346
Russia: 167
Czech Republic: 130
Finland: 103
Sweden: 67
Slovakia: 32

1st round draft picks:

Canada: 74
U.S: 37
Czech Republic: 16
Russia: 15
Finland: 11
Slovakia: 4
Sweden: 2

I can't see how anyone can downplay the U.S. when it comes to supplying prospects, and in many cases high level prospects to the NHL.

Yeah, but how many times have teams found european gems later in the rounds. That happens alot.
 

Kenadyan

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To answer the question asked at the beginning of this post, you have to look at it realistically.

Yes, the US is putting more money into developing hockey, but so is Canada. I think too many people are looking at this question as though US hockey is growing by leaps and bounds (which they are), but Canada is stagnant in their development(which they are not).

Regardless of population, both countries will continue to develop good hockey players. Canada has been producing good to great hockey players for years, and I don't see this ending any time soon.

The US will continue to develop more good to great hockey players over time.

The one advantage that Canada has over the US is that hockey is a part of the Canadian fabric/culture. For 95% of Canada hockey is part of their lifestyles (whether they play, have kids/relatives that play, or they just follow the game as a fan). I'd say like American football is in the US, except in Canada, hockey is a religion.

Therefore, I believe that the US will eventually (maybe not in my lifetime, but eventually) close the gap and catch Canada. However, I do not think they will surpass Canada.
 
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