What's Your Prediction for Athanasiou's Future?

[Hen Kolland]

Because AA has shown nothing in two full NHL seasons to assume that he's going to improve? He got about 2 more minutes of IT a night this year and played in 7 more games total... and he scored 4 more points than he did the previous year.

Larkin and Mantha's improvements have jack squat to do with AA for the very reasons that you say to not get carried away with. They improved because they worked harder, got more comfortable on their line, or both. AA needs to show that he's actually going to put in the work to get to playing better with consistency before you should have any hope for a significant improvement.

Here's the think everyone seems to be glossing over...we have no f***ing clue what Mantha or Larkin or Athanasiou have actually done during their off-seasons. You can say that Larkin and Mantha worked hard and improved and that Athanasiou has never worked hard, but what if he actually does work hard this off-season? You're driving the nails into the coffin before he even has a chance to prove that he is making improvements. All said is I hope that he is able to step forward. I hope that the switch goes on and he figures out what he needs to do be a better player.

 

[Red Stanley]

Why limit it to "core"? We need talented players, period. Dangle AA's name in trade discussions, sure, but unless the trade return is actually a young, talented core player why move him just because he might never be more than a depth scorer? Those players are still needed.

Oh, of course. That's why I said there's no need to force a move if he wants to stay. Was simply pointing out that we need core players first and foremost. Who knows, maybe he'll improve and surprise us all.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Here's the think everyone seems to be glossing over...we have no ****ing clue what Mantha or Larkin or Athanasiou have actually done during their off-seasons. You can say that Larkin and Mantha worked hard and improved and that Athanasiou has never worked hard, but what if he actually does work hard this off-season? You're driving the nails into the coffin before he even has a chance to prove that he is making improvements. All said is I hope that he is able to step forward. I hope that the switch goes on and he figures out what he needs to do be a better player.

I mean, I guess you're technically correct (the best kind of correct) but it is obvious as ****ing day that one guy is doing something and the other isn't.

Larkin has the results where he drastically improved. Coming back from a 2nd year slump like he did and continuing on strong through the end of the year doesn't just happen.
Mantha got more comfortable playing on the line where he is.

AA is precisely the same player in 2018 that he was in 17 that he was in 16, etc.

So while he may be working his ass off in training or whatever, it sure isn't showing up in his play consistently.

He's had two and a half years to show improvements and he's the same frustrating player who scores about .45-.48 PPG. I'm "driving in the nails" because he's shown no proclivity to want to be better consistently. I'm not going to give a guy the benefit of the doubt of developing and that he'll come in like a house on fire when he's had two huge opportunities and he's not done it.

And what I'm saying is that AA should stop getting the hope until he shows something more than what he is. I mean, hoping for him to take a step forward with the knowledge that we have of what goes on is like hoping that the Lions will win the Super Bowl this year. Could they? Sure. Is it at all likely? Hell no.

 

[Hen Kolland]

And what I'm saying is that AA should stop getting the hope until he shows something more than what he is. I mean, hoping for him to take a step forward with the knowledge that we have of what goes on is like hoping that the Lions will win the Super Bowl this year. Could they? Sure. Is it at all likely? Hell no.

And I would say, what's the point of being a fan if you have no hope? That's why we do this, right? That's why we are here. Nobody made an account here because they wanted to rehash things they already know to be fact. We did it because we are fans who love the team. We all want the Wings to win, and going into next season if your primary wish isn't that somehow they win the Stanley Cup, then I would question why you are a fan. This isn't directed at you, but I know someone will read this post and immediately jump in to say "but we don't want to just win one, we want to build a dynasty!" and I 100% agree, but it's gotta start with one. This is obviously unrealistic, but it's just painting the picture of what I mean when I say hope.

Now I expect them to be bad, I expect there to be growing pains, I expect that we are a few years away from even contending for the playoffs, but the #1 thing on my wish list year in and year out is the glory of winning a championship, no matter how far fetched it is.

So bringing this back to AA, I will continue to hope that Athanasiou gets better as part of the team, but I will no longer expect that he's anything more than what he has been to this point.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And I would say, what's the point of being a fan if you have no hope? That's why we do this, right? That's why we are here. Nobody made an account here because they wanted to rehash things they already know to be fact. We did it because we are fans who love the team. We all want the Wings to win, and going into next season if your primary wish isn't that somehow they win the Stanley Cup, then I would question why you are a fan. This isn't directed at you, but I know someone will read this post and immediately jump in to say "but we don't want to just win one, we want to build a dynasty!" and I 100% agree, but it's gotta start with one. This is obviously unrealistic, but it's just painting the picture of what I mean when I say hope.

Now I expect them to be bad, I expect there to be growing pains, I expect that we are a few years away from even contending for the playoffs, but the #1 thing on my wish list year in and year out is the glory of winning a championship, no matter how far fetched it is.

So bringing this back to AA, I will continue to hope that Athanasiou gets better as part of the team, but I will no longer expect that he's anything more than what he has been to this point.

I have hope for the team. I don't think that AA will be part of it when it is successful, nor do I think he'll ever truly be much more than he is now.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh towards him... but when a guy is as obviously talented as he is and he just seems to not get better because he seemingly doesn't want to, it kinda pisses me off. But I'm just a Rudy type. Give me the undertalented guy who works his ass off over the uber talented guy who couldn't give a **** less.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Gets a three year contract.

Either walks as a FA at the end of his next contract or is traded during the second or third year of his bridge deal.

He isn't worth keeping beyond that. One dimensional wingers are a dime a dozen.

 

[FMichael]

Except the three other players took major steps forward this year. The only one that took their bigger role and fumbled was AA. After making a huge show of his contract and after having a history of trying to play his own way and doing what he wants. And his end of season his comments to the press showed he had no ability to take responsibility for his poor production.

I have no idea how people can call Blashill out this season. This team was going to finish at the bottom no matter how you cut it. But, under him Larkin had 63 points, Mantha had 24 goals, and little Bert was 0.5 ppg. And to say the players don't trust or like him is just baseless. Unless you have proof that the players don't like him quit trying to shift blame away from AA and onto others.

But I gotta ask...How would our guys perform with someone else behind the bench?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

But I gotta ask...How would our guys perform with someone else behind the bench?

At best a marginal improvement.

 

[Hen Kolland]

But I gotta ask...How would our guys perform with someone else behind the bench?

Assuming we are talking about the progression of Larkin/Mantha/Athanasiou/Bertuzzi etc. I agree with WingedWheel1987, it's at best a marginal improvement, but worst case scenario could be that they are well behind where they are now. I think Blashill has done a pretty good job with player development, even if we don't see it translating into wins.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

But I gotta ask...How would our guys perform with someone else behind the bench?

I have to ask...why would you expect them to perform materially better with a different coach? AA was immature and inconsistent in London, immature and inconsistent in Barrie, immature and inconsistent in GR and is now immature and inconsistent in Detroit. I for one am not expecting the leopard to change his spots.

 

[masta8]

AA had 37 games in 15-16. So 27 vs 37? Sounds like you're the one with the problem here. And Larkin at 20 with 1 pro season under his built vs AA at 23 with 3 pro seasons under his built might be a little different. And AA isn't Karlsson. If you think that AA is close to Larkin or Karlsson you need to learn a ton more about hockey.

Second, literally the first link when you google it. To avoid the inane number of adds on this site I had disable utilities that allow me to link things.

This is a non-argument.

Fourth, you can rewatch it all you want. I am not the only one who got this from that interview. And you're using absurd arguments to make your points. Mantha announced it too. AA is egotistical. And water is wet. Its life. People have to get around issues to achieve their potential. If they don't they won't. This is a basic fact of life. The way you are talking I have a belief you might be Redder Wing. Are you?

At this point I don't even know why I reply to your posts anymore. It is evident to me you have a dislike for AA as a person and a player and like I said last post this kid could score 48 goals and you wouldn't be satisfied. Were you bullied by a kid with Greek ethnicity growing up? I find it hard to believe you dislike AA just because of him as a hockey player.....

First, your argument about Tyler Randall was that he had a good G/60 in 15-16. I was just stating that AA was at the top of the list in 15-16 and 16-17 which combined to be 101 games actually. Yes, Karlsson is a superior hockey player THIS year but when he combined for 15 goals the previous two years he was a better hockey player then AA? I do not know your logic but your saying last year you rather have a 6 goals and 25 point 23 year old then a 18 goal and 29 point 22 year-old? You can hate this guy all you want but do not make sound like your a psychic and saw it coming.

Second, it takes a few seconds to enable utilities momentarily to send a link but if your too busy to send this link I won't bother you to send it anymore.

Third, it's a non-argument because it is true. Clearly, you just see all the negative aspects about AA and not a fan, but as a fan of his I know for a fact he never asked for 3 million from the Red Wings. Maybe you can send me the link but I guess you would have to enable that too...

Fourth, I just do not believe you understand the term "ego". You make it sound like this kid goes around town claiming he is McDavid. Yes, he held out last summer because he thought he deserved more then the offer. Like I have stated in earlier posts I agreed with others that was not a good decision for his career as a player. He has never been scratched for missing a practice or a team infraction and never made a controversial comment to the media, why does have an ego?

Lastly, I am a big Red Wings fan just as much as you are. I defend AA because I still think he deserves another chance to bounce back from this season. Unlike you, that goes with a 100% negative approach towards AA, I understand he still has flaws in his game, as well as positive. He is very inconsistent and his defensive game needs improvement, but he also brings so much to the team and I believe he is an important player going forward. When you have a 23 year old that has 34 goals the past few seasons and is one of the top 5 fastest players in the NHL, teams would love to have a player like him and you can't argue that. Just like you believe I might be Reddit Winger because it should be "illegal to be a fan of AA", I feel like there is more to just the hockey aspect that makes you consistently hate on AA...

 

[FMichael]

I have to ask...why would you expect them to perform materially better with a different coach? AA was immature and inconsistent in London, immature and inconsistent in Barrie, immature and inconsistent in GR and is now immature and inconsistent in Detroit. I for one am not expecting the leopard to change his spots.

Personally I think Blashill's line combo changes throughout the season gave mixed results.

I will say late in the season players seemed to 'click'.

 

[masta8]

I have to ask...why would you expect them to perform materially better with a different coach? AA was immature and inconsistent in London, immature and inconsistent in Barrie, immature and inconsistent in GR and is now immature and inconsistent in Detroit. I for one am not expecting the leopard to change his spots.

When was he inconsistent in Barrie? He was a PPG in his first season in Barrie playing 2nd line behind Scheifele and they lost in the OHL finals, then second season he put up 49 goals and 95 points, and never had one issue with Hawerchuk.

 

[Shaman464]

Lastly, I am a big Red Wings fan just as much as you are. I defend AA because I still think he deserves another chance to bounce back from this season. Unlike you, that goes with a 100% negative approach towards AA, I understand he still has flaws in his game, as well as positive. He is very inconsistent and his defensive game needs improvement, but he also brings so much to the team and I believe he is an important player going forward. When you have a 23 year old that has 34 goals the past few seasons and is one of the top 5 fastest players in the NHL, teams would love to have a player like him and you can't argue that. Just like you believe I might be Reddit Winger because it should be "illegal to be a fan of AA", I feel like there is more to just the hockey aspect that makes you consistently hate on AA...

I hate watching someone with his talent piss it away. He has since juniors. Between what we know from articles written by established journalists, to trusted people on this board with contacts within the organization, he has made a career of pulling stunts when he's feels that a team isn't using him right. Watching a kid who has the talent to be a regular in the best league in the world do these things can sour a person. Worse when he acts the same way on the ice by taking shifts and even whole games off. And I am not saying it should be illegal to be an AA fan, but the over the top defenses of him get old quick. He's a fine middle 6 player, but his attitude and his track record point to the fact that he's not that special, and yet people like you and Redder take weird sample sizes, or stats out of context and try to paint him as elite.

And as for that stat, 34 goals in 135 games isn't that good. That's literally 20 goals a season. Not exactly world burning. And being fast is fun, but know what's more fun? Back checking. Not being a defensive liability. Going out every shift and playing like you have talent, not like a warm body waiting for a breakout pass. In the end I won't be a fan until I see him actually become a team player, and not play like its the AA show out there.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

At this point I don't even know why I reply to your posts anymore. It is evident to me you have a dislike for AA as a person and a player and like I said last post this kid could score 48 goals and you wouldn't be satisfied. Were you bullied by a kid with Greek ethnicity growing up? I find it hard to believe you dislike AA just because of him as a hockey player.....

First, your argument about Tyler Randall was that he had a good G/60 in 15-16. I was just stating that AA was at the top of the list in 15-16 and 16-17 which combined to be 101 games actually. Yes, Karlsson is a superior hockey player THIS year but when he combined for 15 goals the previous two years he was a better hockey player then AA? I do not know your logic but your saying last year you rather have a 6 goals and 25 point 23 year old then a 18 goal and 29 point 22 year-old? You can hate this guy all you want but do not make sound like your a psychic and saw it coming.

Second, it takes a few seconds to enable utilities momentarily to send a link but if your too busy to send this link I won't bother you to send it anymore.

Third, it's a non-argument because it is true. Clearly, you just see all the negative aspects about AA and not a fan, but as a fan of his I know for a fact he never asked for 3 million from the Red Wings. Maybe you can send me the link but I guess you would have to enable that too...

Fourth, I just do not believe you understand the term "ego". You make it sound like this kid goes around town claiming he is McDavid. Yes, he held out last summer because he thought he deserved more then the offer. Like I have stated in earlier posts I agreed with others that was not a good decision for his career as a player. He has never been scratched for missing a practice or a team infraction and never made a controversial comment to the media, why does have an ego?

Lastly, I am a big Red Wings fan just as much as you are. I defend AA because I still think he deserves another chance to bounce back from this season. Unlike you, that goes with a 100% negative approach towards AA, I understand he still has flaws in his game, as well as positive. He is very inconsistent and his defensive game needs improvement, but he also brings so much to the team and I believe he is an important player going forward. When you have a 23 year old that has 34 goals the past few seasons and is one of the top 5 fastest players in the NHL, teams would love to have a player like him and you can't argue that. Just like you believe I might be Reddit Winger because it should be "illegal to be a fan of AA", I feel like there is more to just the hockey aspect that makes you consistently hate on AA...

I CAN argue it. If he's so good, wouldn't you be hearing about teams sniffing after him? Particularly when there is a HUGE HUGE story last year where he wanted to go to the KHL because he wasn't used correctly (in his approximation)

34 goals in 3 years... you know who else has 34 goals in three years?

Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Justin Abdelkader Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Andreas Athanasiou has the physical tools to be a star in this league. He doesn't have the mental fortitude though. 34 goals in 135 games, while ok, is not anything to really write home about. Not for a guy who could/should be a special player.

 

[masta8]

I hate watching someone with his talent piss it away. He has since juniors. Between what we know from articles written by established journalists, to trusted people on this board with contacts within the organization, he has made a career of pulling stunts when he's feels that a team isn't using him right. Watching a kid who has the talent to be a regular in the best league in the world do these things can sour a person. Worse when he acts the same way on the ice by taking shifts and even whole games off. And I am not saying it should be illegal to be an AA fan, but the over the top defenses of him get old quick. He's a fine middle 6 player, but his attitude and his track record point to the fact that he's not that special, and yet people like you and Redder take weird sample sizes, or stats out of context and try to paint him as elite.

And as for that stat, 34 goals in 135 games isn't that good. That's literally 20 goals a season. Not exactly world burning. And being fast is fun, but know what's more fun? Back checking. Not being a defensive liability. Going out every shift and playing like you have talent, not like a warm body waiting for a breakout pass. In the end I won't be a fan until I see him actually become a team player, and not play like its the AA show out there.

Yes, he has talent that he has not fulfilled yet but what I don't get is why you are so quick to say negative things about him but understand regardless if he isn't a 30 goal scorer that plays two-ways strongly, he can still be a top 6- top 9 winger who can put up 20 goals and 45 points every season. I feel like you forget he is a 4th round pick... he has already overachieved from his draft position, and it's not like he is a bust by any means.

1	11	Washington	Filip Forsberg	L	Leksands IF [Swe-1]	331	117	138	255	145	2017-18
1	3	Montreal	Alex Galchenyuk	L	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	418	108	147	255	151	2017-18
1	17	San Jose	Tomas Hertl	C	Slavia Praha HC [Czech]	328	81	89	170	101	2017-18
1	30	Los Angeles	Tanner Pearson	L	Barrie Colts [OHL]	308	69	74	143	80	2017-18
1	1	Edmonton	Nail Yakupov	R	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	350	62	74	136	142	2017-18
1	18	Chicago	Teuvo Teravainen	L	Jokerit Helsinki [SM-liiga]	278	55	95	150	52	2017-18
1	7	Minnesota	Mathew Dumba	D	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]	310	44	84	128	163	2017-18
1	14	Buffalo	Zemgus Girgensons	C	Dubuque Fighting Saints [USHL]	348	44	57	101	103	2017-18
4	110	Detroit	Andreas Athanasiou	L	London Knights [OHL]	172	43	33	76	49	2017-18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Look at his draft class, he has a chance to be one of the top goal scorers in his draft and every guy above him is a first rounder and played 100 plus more games then him. Once again, you probably expect him to be higher because he had all "this talent he wasted in Junior" but picking up one of the best goal scorers in the draft is a steal that late in the draft.

Also, you say that Redder and I take weird sample sizes, stats, etc. but how do you think I feel when you talk like you know the guy on a personal level and you say he has this big ego? Most interviews he answers the media honestly and has never had a discipline issue in Junior or professionally.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yes, he has talent that he has not fulfilled yet but what I don't get is why you are so quick to say negative things about him but understand regardless if he isn't a 30 goal scorer that plays two-ways strongly, he can still be a top 6- top 9 winger who can put up 20 goals and 45 points every season. I feel like you forget he is a 4th round pick... he has already overachieved from his draft position, and it's not like he is a bust by any means.

1	11	Washington	Filip Forsberg	L	Leksands IF [Swe-1]	331	117	138	255	145	2017-18
1	3	Montreal	Alex Galchenyuk	L	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	418	108	147	255	151	2017-18
1	17	San Jose	Tomas Hertl	C	Slavia Praha HC [Czech]	328	81	89	170	101	2017-18
1	30	Los Angeles	Tanner Pearson	L	Barrie Colts [OHL]	308	69	74	143	80	2017-18
1	1	Edmonton	Nail Yakupov	R	Sarnia Sting [OHL]	350	62	74	136	142	2017-18
1	18	Chicago	Teuvo Teravainen	L	Jokerit Helsinki [SM-liiga]	278	55	95	150	52	2017-18
1	7	Minnesota	Mathew Dumba	D	Red Deer Rebels [WHL]	310	44	84	128	163	2017-18
1	14	Buffalo	Zemgus Girgensons	C	Dubuque Fighting Saints [USHL]	348	44	57	101	103	2017-18
4	110	Detroit	Andreas Athanasiou	L	London Knights [OHL]	172	43	33	76	49	2017-18

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Look at his draft class, he has a chance to be one of the top goal scorers in his draft and every guy above him is a first rounder and played 100 plus more games then him. Once again, you probably expect him to be higher because he had all "this talent he wasted in Junior" but picking up one of the best goal scorers in the draft is a steal that late in the draft.

Also, you say that Redder and I take weird sample sizes, stats, etc. but how do you think I feel when you talk like you know the guy on a personal level and you say he has this big ego? Most interviews he answers the media honestly and has never had a discipline issue in Junior or professionally.

So London traded him to Barrie for kicks?

When guys as talented as AA fall into the 4th... it's because there is something intangibly wrong with them that other teams are worried they can't fix. How in the world are you not getting this?

You add in stats to show how good he is in comparison to these 1st rounders... and all it does it set in concrete that there was something wrong with him that teams didn't like. Guys with 1st round talent and similar stats to 1st rounders don't just fall to the 4th round for S's and G's.

He's not a bust... but I am not interested in the edification of Andreas Athanasiou or providing him with the top 6 role you think he deserves unless that role also helps Detroit as a team. I do not care about any one particular player.

Guess what, Justin Abdelkader is a top 6/9 winger who scores 20 goals and 45 points and people give him 29.75 million yards of ****. If AA with all of his talent and lack of defensive responsibility can't outscore ****ing Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader (in terms of counting stats, not rate, because he's already shown that his P/60 rate won't hold up if he's given more minutes), I don't want to hear about how he's being misused.

 

[masta8]

I CAN argue it. If he's so good, wouldn't you be hearing about teams sniffing after him? Particularly when there is a HUGE HUGE story last year where he wanted to go to the KHL because he wasn't used correctly (in his approximation)

34 goals in 3 years... you know who else has 34 goals in three years?

Darren Helm Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Justin Abdelkader Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Andreas Athanasiou has the physical tools to be a star in this league. He doesn't have the mental fortitude though. 34 goals in 135 games, while ok, is not anything to really write home about. Not for a guy who could/should be a special player.

Andreas Athanasiou hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

Here is AA's stats. It's 34 goals in 2 years, and if you want to include the third year he had 9 goals in 37 games playing 9 minutes a game.

And if your gonna rebuttal that Helm and Abdelkader have similar offensive ability don't forget mention when Abdelkader was 22 he had 3 goals in 6 points in 50 games, while AA had 18 goals and 29 points. While at 23, Abdelkader had 7 goals and 19 points, Helm had 11 goals and 29 points, and AA in a off year had 16 goals and 33 points. At 24, Abdelkader had only 8 goals and 24 points, imagine what this forum would have to say if AA put those numbers up next year.......

Btw, not every team is going be stacked with McDavid's and Crosby's, if you think 34 goals in 2 years playing limited minutes is not worth noting you must be referring to your NHL 18 team where you customize the teams and stack your team with all the all stars...

 

[masta8]

So London traded him to Barrie for kicks?

When guys as talented as AA fall into the 4th... it's because there is something intangibly wrong with them that other teams are worried they can't fix. How in the world are you not getting this?

You add in stats to show how good he is in comparison to these 1st rounders... and all it does it set in concrete that there was something wrong with him that teams didn't like. Guys with 1st round talent and similar stats to 1st rounders don't just fall to the 4th round for S's and G's.

He's not a bust... but I am not interested in the edification of Andreas Athanasiou or providing him with the top 6 role you think he deserves unless that role also helps Detroit as a team. I do not care about any one particular player.

Guess what, Justin Abdelkader is a top 6/9 winger who scores 20 goals and 45 points and people give him 29.75 million yards of ****. If AA with all of his talent and lack of defensive responsibility can't outscore ****ing Darren Helm and Justin Abdelkader (in terms of counting stats, not rate, because he's already shown that his P/60 rate won't hold up if he's given more minutes), I don't want to hear about how he's being misused.

Once again, if your going to compare Abdelkader don't hype him up like he is some offensive dynamo.. he has not once put up 20 goals and 45 points in a season. Also, if he has these number compared to guys with first round talent shouldn't he be playing more minutes with players of his offensive ability compared to playing 3rd line minutes? Like I have said numerous times on this post, give him a 1-2 year deal to prove himself with a full training camp and exhibition games to work on his weaknesses and comeback with a strong season. For someone who probably considers yourself a big Red Wings fan why do you want one of our players to not succeed?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Andreas Athanasiou hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

Here is AA's stats. It's 34 goals in 2 years, and if you want to include the third year he had 9 goals in 37 games playing 9 minutes a game.

And if your gonna rebuttal that Helm and Abdelkader have similar offensive ability don't forget mention when Abdelkader was 22 he had 3 goals in 6 points in 50 games, while AA had 18 goals and 29 points. While at 23, Abdelkader had 7 goals and 19 points, Helm had 11 goals and 29 points, and AA in a off year had 16 goals and 33 points. At 24, Abdelkader had only 8 goals and 24 points, imagine what this forum would have to say if AA put those numbers up next year.......

Btw, not every team is going be stacked with McDavid's and Crosby's, if you think 34 goals in 2 years playing limited minutes is not worth noting you must be referring to your NHL 18 team where you customize the teams and stack your team with all the all stars...

I'm not saying they have similar offensive ability. I'm saying that woefully less talented players produce just about as much as he does. How about you don't pump AA's tires as being a potential offensive dynamo when he scores as much as Stone Hands Helm in similar minutes.

I don't care about what they did at 22-24... AA is supposed to be a FAR better player than either of them, or at least that's what I've been lead to believe by how much people stand up for him and deride those other guys. He should be crazy outproducing them, not by about 4 points over the season.

 

[masta8]

I'm not saying they have similar offensive ability. I'm saying that woefully less talented players produce just about as much as he does. How about you don't pump AA's tires as being a potential offensive dynamo when he scores as much as Stone Hands Helm in similar minutes.

I don't care about what they did at 22-24... AA is supposed to be a FAR better player than either of them, or at least that's what I've been lead to believe by how much people stand up for him and deride those other guys. He should be crazy outproducing them, not by about 4 points over the season.

I have never once claimed AA was some offensive freak at all, all I do is prove that he is an effective player and is not a player I would give up on? I find it comical that you sent me a link of Abdelakder and Helm's stats and tell me it wasn't to compare offensive ability? Did my statistical facts shut down your theory that Helm and Abdelakder compare to AA???????

If you don't care what they did at 22-24 then what is your point dude???? How are we suppose to know how good a player AA is going to be in 7 or 8 years? I will guarantee you AA's career numbers will be higher then both of those... wait his numbers are already the same as Helm's career high.. interesting eh?

I'll say it once more, since my first post on this topic I have continually stated one underachieving season should not dictate him being shipped out of town. If it gives us a high pick or top 4 D then sure. Unfortunately, his trade value is not as high as it once was and I believe he is going to bounce back and have a good year. I was hoping there was going to be a coaching change that would be able to give players like Mantha and AA a different voice that would help them achieve up to there ability but it didn't happen.

Sorry I want the Red Wings to succeed like we had for decades, and I'm pretty sure giving up one of our young offensive players is not a way to do it!

 

[Marky9er]

Sure hope not. Would rather have a pick.

I think a pick is much more likely. However I came up with this story in my mind to create a long shot I told you so.

Basically Brandon Guhle likely lost his spot to one Rasmus Dahlin, and I have a feeling Brandon Guhle is someone KH really likes. KH said in that press conference he needs to trade a roster player, and it's not hard to imagine which one.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I have never once claimed AA was some offensive freak at all, all I do is prove that he is an effective player and is not a player I would give up on? I find it comical that you sent me a link of Abdelakder and Helm's stats and tell me it wasn't to compare offensive ability? Did my statistical facts shut down your theory that Helm and Abdelakder compare to AA???????

If you don't care what they did at 22-24 then what is your point dude???? How are we suppose to know how good a player AA is going to be in 7 or 8 years? I will guarantee you AA's career numbers will be higher then both of those... wait his numbers are already the same as Helm's career high.. interesting eh?

I'll say it once more, since my first post on this topic I have continually stated one underachieving season should not dictate him being shipped out of town. If it gives us a high pick or top 4 D then sure. Unfortunately, his trade value is not as high as it once was and I believe he is going to bounce back and have a good year. I was hoping there was going to be a coaching change that would be able to give players like Mantha and AA a different voice that would help them achieve up to there ability but it didn't happen.

Sorry I want the Red Wings to succeed like we had for decades, and I'm pretty sure giving up one of our young offensive players is not a way to do it!

A guy with an underperforming season is not going to return a high pick or a top 4 D. And I just don't have the same confidence that he's going to have a bounce back year. That hope is based simply in "I want it to happen so I'll ignore the reasons why it won't" land. I am saying that I do not see the same upside that you do. If AA keeps doing what he's always done, he's not going to develop. I ****ing wish he would care and would really commit himself to a two-way game and become the special player that the Wings themselves keep saying he can be when he tries and that he flashes every once in a while.

But I'm not going to sit and cross my fingers that a guy will develop when he seemingly keeps doing the same ****.

I'm in favor of him being shipped out of town because he doesn't play the same type of game that the Wings seem to want to play. His playstyle is incongruent with what we're trying to do and what we've always tried to do. I don't care if he pots 1.4 p/60 and that's really good for a third liner or whatever. He does it in a way that doesn't really develop what we're doing. I want guys with skill sets that actually mesh with what else we have on the roster.

And I was quoting Helm and Abby's stats because they are viewed as ****ing wastes of space who the Wings should literally just set on fire but yet in similar minutes with more defensive responsibility, they produce about as much as him. You may not have said AA was a dynamo, but he's pretty clearly getting stumped by the fanbase because of his offensive upside because his defensive game sucks.

Also, he spent all last offseason dallying with the KHL to get a bigger contract than his directly comparable players (Anderson, Bennett, etc. at 1.9M) got... after his stuff in juniors that got him traded from London to Barrie leading a guy with 1st round talent to be there in the 4th.

I'm not hoping for him to fail, but I'm not blindly thinking he's going to succeed either. To think he's just going to magically develop into a great player without something very material changing in the way he approaches the game is insanity.

 

[masta8]

A guy with an underperforming season is not going to return a high pick or a top 4 D. And I just don't have the same confidence that he's going to have a bounce back year. That hope is based simply in "I want it to happen so I'll ignore the reasons why it won't" land. I am saying that I do not see the same upside that you do. If AA keeps doing what he's always done, he's not going to develop. I ****ing wish he would care and would really commit himself to a two-way game and become the special player that the Wings themselves keep saying he can be when he tries and that he flashes every once in a while.

But I'm not going to sit and cross my fingers that a guy will develop when he seemingly keeps doing the same ****.

I'm in favor of him being shipped out of town because he doesn't play the same type of game that the Wings seem to want to play. His playstyle is incongruent with what we're trying to do and what we've always tried to do. I don't care if he pots 1.4 p/60 and that's really good for a third liner or whatever. He does it in a way that doesn't really develop what we're doing. I want guys with skill sets that actually mesh with what else we have on the roster.

And I was quoting Helm and Abby's stats because they are viewed as ****ing wastes of space who the Wings should literally just set on fire but yet in similar minutes with more defensive responsibility, they produce about as much as him. You may not have said AA was a dynamo, but he's pretty clearly getting stumped by the fanbase because of his offensive upside because his defensive game sucks.

Also, he spent all last offseason dallying with the KHL to get a bigger contract than his directly comparable players (Anderson, Bennett, etc. at 1.9M) got... after his stuff in juniors that got him traded from London to Barrie leading a guy with 1st round talent to be there in the 4th.

I'm not hoping for him to fail, but I'm not blindly thinking he's going to succeed either. To think he's just going to magically develop into a great player without something very material changing in the way he approaches the game is insanity.

If he is not going to get a top 4 D or high draft pick then why bother trading him? No point trading him for a 3rd round pick because the chances of that player being a better NHLer are slim. Also, his 4th round pick wasn't necessarily his "stuff that got him traded". He didn't light it up his draft year (a stacked Knights team) and with a returning team, he asked for a team closer to a team near his Toronto home.

I am not going to go in length about how you just said that Abdelkader and Helm stat's are comparable, unless your counting penalty minutes, then yes Abby has better stats! Not even remotely similar at the age AA is.

Even though you don't see him bouncing back, I do not see a reason to not have him on the opening roster next year unless he publicly asks for a trade, because with the roster we have back next year we might be celebrating goals rather then wins next year....

 

[ShelbyZ]

I'm in favor of him being shipped out of town because he doesn't play the same type of game that the Wings seem to want to play. His playstyle is incongruent with what we're trying to do and what we've always tried to do. I don't care if he pots 1.4 p/60 and that's really good for a third liner or whatever. He does it in a way that doesn't really develop what we're doing. I want guys with skill sets that actually mesh with what else we have on the roster.

Also, he spent all last offseason dallying with the KHL to get a bigger contract than his directly comparable players (Anderson, Bennett, etc. at 1.9M) got... after his stuff in juniors that got him traded from London to Barrie leading a guy with 1st round talent to be there in the 4th.

IMO, the bolded is likely why the organization might be ready to move on.

It almost seems like in their eyes, Bertuzzi now has more value on their list of "future pieces" at forward. Not that these guys make the decisions, but during the post game coverage for the last game, Ken and Mickey and company much more often mentioned Bertuzzi along with Larkin and Mantha as pieces for the future while notably omitting AA from that discussion. Bertuzzi seems to play the kind of game that the Red Wings probably wanted AA to play, and when you look at usage, he's clearly ahead of AA on the depth chart now.

As for last summers negotiations, recent evidence would suggest that Ken Holland is less forgiving to guys that put him in a tough spot negotiation wise and then under perform given their demands. The last noteworthy "tense negotiating" he had was with Mrazek two years ago. When Mrazek was garbage for 16-17 and had some alleged attitude/work ethic/etc. issues, he was essentially written off last summer and they pretty much couldn't wait to get him off the team. Now obviously, AA's younger, his demands weren't as large and he certainly wasn't a complete dumpster fire like 16/17 Mrazek was, but it wouldn't surprise me if the FO has similarly soured on him.

I think the comparisons to and mentions of the more expensive "less talented" forwards on the team are ironic. You'd think AA and his dumb agent were just as cognizant of them... They could've looked around the locker room at guys like DeKeyser, Abdelkader, Helm, Tatar (before his trade), Nyquist, Howard, Ericsson, Glendening and maybe Franzen (if he comes to visit every once in a while?), and Ferris might arrive at, "Gee Andreas, maybe you should take that 2yr $3.8M deal on the table and just do what the coaches ask of you. Because it looks like if you're a good soldier and keep your mouth shut through your RFA and bridge years, you'll likely get a generous termed deal from Ken Holland before you can potentially walk as a UFA, and that's even if you end up clearly no better than a 3rd line guy at best..."