What's your Goaltending for next year?

[Wolfpuck]

Scott Darling/Cam Ward

 

[bleedgreen]

The system worked well with quick skating dmen with make good decisions on those tight gaps. I felt the best dman we had for it was actually Liles. He excelled in Peters system. Faulk never has, he’s not a great skater and is at his best defensively when he can sag and buy some time vs perfectly timed step ups into the neutral zone. Hanifin should be a good fit but he’s still finding his comfort zone with when to step up.

Peace and Slavin look a bit over used. They seem to sag back a bit more than they used to, and it’s hard to blame them with the heavy minutes they get over a long season. It’s hard to play on your toes for six months straight against the other teams best, especially when you have inconsistent goaltending behind you.

I think the system needed more guys like Liles and maybe tweeks just haven’t worked. It definitely doesn’t seem as effective as it once did, maybe Peters isn’t even doing it anymore and has tried to adapt to what he does have. Hard to say, we don’t get to see the chalkboard.

 

[MinJaBen]

Scott Darling/Cam Ward

 

[sheriff bart]

Scott Darling/Cam Ward

May the fleas of a thousand camels invade your crotch, and may your arms be to short too scratch

 

[Wolfpuck]

May the fleas of a thousand camels invade your crotch, and may your arms be to short too scratch

Experience Canes Hockey

 

[geehaad]

That's bull. You can't look at the product on the ice and see there is a problem? I know you can.

There's a world of difference between knowing that this team's defense is a problem and knowing that the system is the root problem. It could be that it would work just fine with better personnel (not necessarily elite defensemen).

 

[MinJaBen]

There's a world of difference between knowing that this team's defense is a problem and knowing that the system is the root problem. It could be that it would work just fine with better personnel (not necessarily elite defensemen).

But as the coach and designer of the system, you can't just put a system in place for some "generic hockey player", you have to design the system to work with your players. The system is the sum total of the procedures and the players that carry it out. If you can't change the players (and he can't), and the procedures aren't working with the players, then the procedures need to be changed. And if he won't change them, change the coach.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But as the coach and designer of the system, you can't just put a system in place for some "generic hockey player", you have to design the system to work with your players. The system is the sum total of the procedures and the players that carry it out. If you can't change the players (and he can't), and the procedures aren't working with the players, then the procedures need to be changed. And if he won't change them, change the coach.

I suppose the question is, does a system exist which would make this group of players consistently perform like an actual playoff team?

At this point I'll understand Peters getting canned because the organization needs a shakeup and you can't just wallow in bad experiences forever. But any expectation that we're going to get better results from a different coach, without significant additions in terms of player talent, needs to be tempered.

 

[MinJaBen]

I suppose the question is, does a system exist which would make this group of players consistently perform like an actual playoff team?

Probably no offensive system which will squeeze more goals out of this team, but I believe a defensive system exists which will reduce the number of bad goals against.

 

[geehaad]

But as the coach and designer of the system, you can't just put a system in place for some "generic hockey player", you have to design the system to work with your players. The system is the sum total of the procedures and the players that carry it out. If you can't change the players (and he can't), and the procedures aren't working with the players, then the procedures need to be changed. And if he won't change them, change the coach.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this team's failures don't necessarily mean that his system is shit. Then again, maybe these players ran his system about as well as can be expected, therefore this team's failures were evidence that his system is shit.

That is BBA's point.

 

[My Special Purpose]

Honestly, this is where good GMing comes in. Every option needs to be on the table, including every goalie currently playing in the NHL and every other league. The time for timidity is over. The time for dumpster diving is over. Identify the goalie you want and go get him. Start with a blank slate and solve the problem. Trade whoever you need to trade. It will be worth it. Then we can deal with the backup situation later, specifically what to do about Darling (unless we can somehow work him into the trade).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

That's bull. You can't look at the product on the ice and see there is a problem? I know you can. Neither of us are physicians either, but we both can probably diagnose a compound fracture as a medical problem even if neither of us are competent to fix it.

What? It's not bull. I didn't say the team doesn't have problems, of course it does, but I don't know enough to say if it's the system, and no matter WHO (forward and D) execute that system, it's still a problem or if the system is OK, and we don't have the talent to execute it.

To use your own analogy, sure, I can say that a compound fracture is a medical problem, the same way I can say the on ice performance of the Canes is a problem, but I can't look at the compound fracture and tell how someone got it, nor what the right treatment is, nor how to fix it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this team's failures don't necessarily mean that his system is ****. Then again, maybe these players ran his system about as well as can be expected, therefore this team's failures were evidence that his system is ****.

That is BBA's point.

What he said.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I suppose the question is, does a system exist which would make this group of players consistently perform like an actual playoff team?

At this point I'll understand Peters getting canned because the organization needs a shakeup and you can't just wallow in bad experiences forever. But any expectation that we're going to get better results from a different coach, without significant additions in terms of player talent, needs to be tempered.

Probably no offensive system which will squeeze more goals out of this team, but I believe a defensive system exists which will reduce the number of bad goals against.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this team's failures don't necessarily mean that his system is ****. Then again, maybe these players ran his system about as well as can be expected, therefore this team's failures were evidence that his system is ****.

That is BBA's point.

I personally think that systems are overrated. We've seen Peters system work when players are skating, aggressive and engaged. When they are not, the system looks horrible. I think this is true with *all* systems, so in effect, they don't matter much. We have the defensemen -- and forwards -- to cut down the high-risk chances against, they're just not playing to their capabilities.

IMO, if this is where you want to lay the blame at Peters's feet, I'm OK with it. This team is maddeningly inconsistent. There are nights when they could beat any team in the league (the January 4-0 game in Pittsburgh comes to mind). They are flying. The gaps are tight and it looks like they have eight guys on the ice. After one game this season, I'm not sure which, an opposing player commented that it felt like the Canes were everywhere (I think it was a Caps game). But they just don't bring this game very often.

The fact of the matter, I believe, is that a lot of guys just didn't bring their best effort this season. Yeah, we've got guys who are massively unskilled (Ryan, Nordstrom, etc.), but they work hard. Guys like Rask, Faulk, Skinner, Lindholm and even Slavin just didn't bring the intensity this season. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's on the coach. Maybe they need a change of scenery.

We had a lot of passengers for the vast majority of this season and we aren't deep enough or skilled enough to mask that. It ends up looking like the past three weeks. No intensity, no physicality, no guys going down to block shots, nobody standing up for teammates.

I just think it's all about the players playing well, more than the system. And this year, most of our players just didn't play well.

 

[MinJaBen]

I don't disagree with any of this. However, this team's failures don't necessarily mean that his system is ****. Then again, maybe these players ran his system about as well as can be expected, therefore this team's failures were evidence that his system is ****.

That is BBA's point.

I agree that the evaluation of his system vs. the players in it is difficult to near impossible over a short time scale. Either one could make it look bad. But over three years of it with multiple players coming in and out and it still has the same results makes it pretty clear that there is some underlying structural component to his system that is hard, if not impossible, to execute well. Could his system work better with the best players? I would concede that that is likely. But if his system requires the best player to work well, it is not a good system.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

What do I want?

Trade Faulk+ for Price/Max Pat. Sign Ward to a backup deal.

What do I predict?

Ward/Darling tandem behind a defense that hasn't changed.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

What? It's not bull. I didn't say the team doesn't have problems, of course it does, but I don't know enough to say if it's the system, and no matter WHO (forward and D) execute that system, it's still a problem or if the system is OK, and we don't have the talent to execute it.

To use your own analogy, sure, I can say that a compound fracture is a medical problem, the same way I can say the on ice performance of the Canes is a problem, but I can't look at the compound fracture and tell how someone got it, nor what the right treatment is, nor how to fix it.

To also further extend the analogy while the compound fracture may be the obvious problem, it may not be the root of the problem. Sure your patient may have a compound fracture and it may seem like that's the obvious thing wrong but as BBA points out, you don't know how someone got it. Maybe there's some Parkinsonian sort of neuromuscular issue that's put them at an increased fall risk. Maybe there's some calcium deficiency or bone issue that's leaving them more susceptible to a fracture? Sure, fixing that compound fracture helps now in the short term, but if you don't treat that underlying issue, your patient's going to have another one sooner than later.

As for what to do, I'm seeing a lot of calls to trade Faulk. That'd be a disastrously wrong move at this point in time considering we'd be selling low. I don't know what's going on with him but this isn't the year to kick him to the curb because A) his value is depressed causing B) demand for him to be depressed and C) returns for him to similarly be depressed, meaning we'd have to pay more in the way of picks/prospects and, frankly, I don't think we're a team that can give up picks and prospects at this point - our pipeline still isn't replenished to the state it needs to be at in order to make any sort of push sustainable. IMO, resign Ward to a one or two year deal, make a push for somebody like Raanta (again on a one or two year deal) or somebody like Garret Sparks (two year, two-way contract) and continue to monitor the development of Booth and Nedeljkovic and potentially give them starts in the preseason and/or spot starts with the big club to see how they do against regular NHL competition.

 

[The Stranger]

Raanta is 2018 Darling...UFA, history as a backup, playing elevated role in contract year and sporting a nice SV%.

I don't see him signing a 1 or 2 year deal...someone will offer him something like the 4X4 Darling got. Theoretically AZ would be wise to just keep him in-house if they are happy and he doesn't ask for the moon.

Not making any statement on his quality relative to Darling though...maybe he'll be worth 4X4...have not seen enough myself.

 

[My Special Purpose]

But if his system requires the best player to work well, it is not a good system.

What we need, is a system that works best with fat, lazy, underachievers and players with zero talent but big hearts.

 

[sheriff bart]

I don't know about all this arm fracture stuff, but I suffered with Sacroiliac joint pain for a long time. I told the doctor my SI was bothering me and we worked on that for months. Tried a chiropractor who was most interested in treating me 3 times a week. After much pain, the doc finally sent me to an orthopaedist who ordered a MRI. I had a bad hip that needed a full replacement.

I guess the moral of the story is you need to know what the actual problem is before you start fixing it. I'm not sure the current staff knows.

 

[Drivebytrucker]

Raanta is making saves by being athletic.

I think youre way wrong in that assessment

If he could seriously be had for 4 million, we absolutely need to trade for his rights if the yotes dont sign him

Raanta is 2018 Darling...UFA, history as a backup, playing elevated role in contract year and sporting a nice SV%.

I don't see him signing a 1 or 2 year deal...someone will offer him something like the 4X4 Darling got. Theoretically AZ would be wise to just keep him in-house if they are happy and he doesn't ask for the moon.

Not making any statement on his quality relative to Darling though...maybe he'll be worth 4X4...have not seen enough myself.

 

[NotOpie]

Having 2 new goalies next season could go terribly wrong.

Worse than two goalies today who just gave up 6 goals in 2 games and back to back hat tricks? Surely you jest...

Buy out Darling. Offer Cam a deal 1 year deal.

I ask again, is buying Darling out this year the best course? Could it make more sense to bury him in the A, perhaps a miracle happens and he finds a game? Next year isn't going to be one with a cap issue but 2, 3, or 4 years down the road, this team is going to be salary cap challenged as our young stars come up for contract negotiation.

If Darling doesn't "find himself" then your buyout is still available, but you saved a year on the back end.

2) They hold onto the puck a long time when trying to come up the ice out of their zone.

I paid attention to this the last two games I attended....this isn't just a defender issue, it is team wide. There's an issue (except, seemingly with Aho, Teravainen, and Lindholm) where the forwards hold on to the puck too long as well. And I'm not talking a split second or two. It is if they are waiting for or looking for the perfect time to make the dish...either that or their skill level isn't up to a quick, crisp passing game.

I'm not sure it is conducive to generating offense / good scoring chances, but how much of that is the system vs. lack of talent? No idea.

I almost think it is a combination of several factors....perhaps the players have tuned the system out a bit. Even more apparent to me is that it seems more about the lack of talent in the right places. Two years ago, PDG clicked on a line with Skinner. This season it is clearly not working and hasn't for a while. There are other examples of this too.

 

[David Tanabe]

Trade Faulk, Skinner, and Staal, go into next season with Darling/Nedeljkovic, and get the top picks we need.

 

[bluedevil58]

I think we need to address our goalie situation this off season. [MOD]

 

[Unsustainable]

We could trade Darling + for Raanta now, see how Raanta give him the chance to play for us, then extend him if it works out. If he pushes us into the playoffs (lol), we ride Ward for the first round.