What was a worse catastrophe for Canadian Hockey?

[Transported Upstater]

This is what you wasted space on?This post? Go take a look around and tell me all the wonderful comments you see from Euro posters about Canadian hockey,go ahead and find them for me.

100% total overboard political correctness posted to garner "sweetheart" status around here.I don't care what you say,that's the way it is.

It does go both ways though, it's not like it's just Europeans hating Canadians without merit. The opposite does happen.

I'm just stating an opinion. I'm not saying "that's the way it is." If you're stating or implying that I kiss @ss on this board, that's the most juvenile thing I've heard in my life. What, exactly, do I have to gain in my life by improving my status on a HOCKEY FORUM? That's the type of thing a teenager does.

IMO, hating a European player simply because he's European, without knowing anything about him is flat-out inbred and ignorant. Hating a European player because he hates Canada is far more understandable.

If you really have a problem with me, discuss it through a PM. Don't waste a thread on arguing. I'd be more than willing to discuss it. Just not on this thread any more.

 

[espo*]

It does go both ways though, it's not like it's just Europeans hating Canadians without merit. The opposite does happen.

I'm just stating an opinion. I'm not saying "that's the way it is." If you're stating or implying that I kiss @ss on this board, that's the most juvenile thing I've heard in my life. What, exactly, do I have to gain in my life by improving my status on a HOCKEY FORUM? That's the type of thing a teenager does.

IMO, hating a European player simply because he's European, without knowing anything about him is flat-out inbred and ignorant. Hating a European player because he hates Canada is far more understandable.

If you really have a problem with me, discuss it through a PM. Don't waste a thread on arguing. I'd be more than willing to discuss it. Just not on this thread any more.

Sure,i'm glad that you came to save the day.I see things very differently from you.But don't bother calling anyone juvenile if you are only too happy to try and show things as you see it.Because that's exactly the way it is...............the way you see it,as it is with me,and that's my right and yours,unless i'm suddenly living in a different country.Try not to forget that.

I don't mind you disagreeing with me,i DO mind you telling me what i can and cannot think while sticking in "avery" stuff while you seem to have no problem giving your OWN opinion on matters and at the same time trying to burn someone in the process(not exactly the most mature either right?).That's a big cake you get to have and eat.As long as anyone does'nt try that angle with me,i have no problems.Anytime i see two people on here that disagree and one espouses they are coming from a higher moral ground yet engages in the same subject matter with strong feelings of their own i see it for what it is............rationalising their own conduct,humans tend to do a lot of it and it sure goes on here enough.

And really,when you post stuff like"you're Sean Avery" and then in the next breath calls someone out for immaturity it's kinda silly.................rationalisation of ones own behaviour right? Pot calling kettle black stuff,which i am awake enough to see through.
And also,if the privacy of our disagreement is so important to you,why did you not P.M.(as you suggested) with your last comment? is that more fishing on your part? The need to have others "see" just how you put me in my place? Very questionable i must say.

Teenage indeed!!!

 

[jiggs 10]

If the Europeans are just far better at everything at hockey, why do they always lose and fail to contribute at key times where Canadians do time, and time again?

In total, the European countries have won only 2 of 9 best on best tournaments, 7 of 9 have gone to North American squads. Go figure.

As for biggest catastrophe in the NHL, probably Gretz going south, biggest catastrophe internationally, Nagano.

I guess I count the Olympics as "best on best" tournaments, and Euros have won far more of them. European teams have won 11 gold metals. Canada has won 7, but only 1 in the last 50 years. The US has the 2. The USSR won 8 of them in a 10 Olympic period alone!
link:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0758127.html

Are you counting the World Cup tournaments? Or just the WJC?

I guess a team like Detroit would have been much better off without Sergei Fedorov during each of their 3 Cup wins in the past 8 years. He was only the best or second best player on each of those teams every time (as one example). And why are there so many Euro captains these days? Alfredsson, Sundin, Koivo, Nasland, to name 4...and all on Canadian teams!

 

[Roughneck]

I guess I count the Olympics as "best on best" tournaments, and Euros have won far more of them. European teams have won 11 gold metals. Canada has won 7, but only 1 in the last 50 years. The US has the 2. The USSR won 8 of them in a 10 Olympic period alone!

This is clearly flawed because the Olympics up until 1998 were clearly NOT a best on best tournament. Since then, Europe and North America are tied.

The Canada/World Cups were closer to Best on Best as North America actually got to send its best.

 

[espo*]

i've never said Europeans were'nt good players and don't have great skill,i just disagree they are more skillfull then North American players.i think the AVERAGE Euro player has stronger skating and puck handling skills but that's about it.When it comes to the other skill areas they don't grade out nearly as well as North American players and it shows,their emphasis on skating and puck moving skills makes that come as no surprise.I guess some people would like to see a game where only skating and stickhandling was important but thankfully(for me anyway) it is only a part of the game and i'm glad it is because if it was'nt hockey would'nt be hockey to me anymore and would be half the game it is now.

And yeah,the Olympics are a joke as a measuring tool between Europe and Canada before 1998.You get a way better read now that everyone is on the same playing field and the last read said...............Canada was better and had more skill then the Euro competitors,the World Cup did too.Results when the playing field is level are hard to ignore.Results when the playing field is one sided are very easy to ignore.

 

[jiggs 10]

How can the Olympics be a joke? They are the best players, in the best tournament!!!!! Just because the weak Canucks lost 13 in a row doesn't make it a bad judgement of talent! ANd since 1988 it has been the best of the best, and the fact that a Euro team has won 4 of 5 should show that they are worthy of respect. And that they are among the leading scorers in the NHL every year....

 

[Roughneck]

How can the Olympics be a joke? They are the best players, in the best tournament!!!!! Just because the weak Canucks lost 13 in a row doesn't make it a bad judgement of talent!

Not from the European side, but from the North American side it was a definite joke. It makes it a VERY bad judgement of talent. Why do you think they had the Summit Series? Do you think Canada just decided not to send all of its NHL stars for 20 years? Why do you think Canada boycotted Ice Hockey in 72 and 76? Because their top level talent was so unmatched?

ANd since 1988 it has been the best of the best, and the fact that a Euro team has won 4 of 5 should show that they are worthy of respect. And that they are among the leading scorers in the NHL every year....

Since 1988? Best on best? 1988 was the first time North America and Europe were on a level playing field becuase a large number of Europeans had made the jump to North America in the late 80s, early 90s, meaning that both sides were now stuck using junior aged players and minor league stars. 1998 was the first year teams were allowed to send professionals (the best) to the Olympics.


you told somebody else to watch more hockey, I think you need to understand hockey better, especially if you think that at anypoint up until 1998 Canada was able to send its best teams to the Olympics.

 

[Maken*]

How can the Olympics be a joke? They are the best players, in the best tournament!!!!!

Just because the weak Canucks lost 13 in a row doesn't make it a bad judgement of talent!

ANd since 1988 it has been the best of the best, and the fact that a Euro team has won 4 of 5 should show that they are worthy of respect.

 

[jamiebez]

How can the Olympics be a joke? They are the best players, in the best tournament!!!!! Just because the weak Canucks lost 13 in a row doesn't make it a bad judgement of talent! ANd since 1988 it has been the best of the best, and the fact that a Euro team has won 4 of 5 should show that they are worthy of respect. And that they are among the leading scorers in the NHL every year....

FYI, Canada did not even send a team to the Olympics in 1972 or 1976.

The best Canadian and American players were always in the NHL during the Olympics, and the best players from ALL countries were in the NHL for the 1992 and 1994 Games.

One could argue that even the Canada/World Cups were played with NHL rules on NHL ice. Really, the Olympics since 1998 are the only true measure of best on best.

 

[espo*]

Not from the European side, but from the North American side it was a definite joke. It makes it a VERY bad judgement of talent. Why do you think they had the Summit Series? Do you think Canada just decided not to send all of its NHL stars for 20 years? Why do you think Canada boycotted Ice Hockey in 72 and 76? Because their top level talent was so unmatched?



Since 1988? Best on best? 1988 was the first time North America and Europe were on a level playing field becuase a large number of Europeans had made the jump to North America in the late 80s, early 90s, meaning that both sides were now stuck using junior aged players and minor league stars. 1998 was the first year teams were allowed to send professionals (the best) to the Olympics.


you told somebody else to watch more hockey, I think you need to understand hockey better, especially if you think that at anypoint up until 1998 Canada was able to send its best teams to the Olympics.

well said,the truth in a nutshell.

 

[therealdeal]

I guess I count the Olympics as "best on best" tournaments, and Euros have won far more of them. European teams have won 11 gold metals. Canada has won 7, but only 1 in the last 50 years. The US has the 2. The USSR won 8 of them in a 10 Olympic period alone!
link:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0758127.html

Are you counting the World Cup tournaments? Or just the WJC?

I guess a team like Detroit would have been much better off without Sergei Fedorov during each of their 3 Cup wins in the past 8 years. He was only the best or second best player on each of those teams every time (as one example). And why are there so many Euro captains these days? Alfredsson, Sundin, Koivo, Nasland, to name 4...and all on Canadian teams!

As someone had mentioned, the Olympics don't count up until 98, so thats why they wouldn't be counted.

Nor am I saying that Europeans aren't good, I'm simply asking you why there hasn't been a sheer domination by European players if they are better at every single aspect of the game aside from cheap shots as someone has stated in this thread.

Not to mention, not one Euro captain has ever won a Stanley Cup, could be a fluke, but that is the way it stands right now.

 

[Maken*]

Not to mention, not one Euro captain has ever won a Stanley Cup, could be a fluke, but that is the way it stands right now.

Don't forget about all the Europeans who have won the Conn Smythe.. all 1 of them.

Only 2 Euro's ever could have been even considered for it.. Lidstrom and Fedorov.

 

[pappyline]

Shocking first loss in game 1 of the 72 summit series. Canada came back to win but would have won much easier if the #1 player in the world at the time=Bobby Hull had been allowed to play.

 

[Marcus-74]

Shocking first loss in game 1 of the 72 summit series. Canada came back to win but would have won much easier if the #1 player in the world at the time=Bobby Hull had been allowed to play.

No no, you´ve got it totally wrong Mr. Psychic. If Anatoli Firsov had played for the Soviets, the Canadians would have lost every game 100-0 and Phil Esposito would be a cab driver in Mongolia today.

Anyway, wasn´t Bobby Orr the bigger loss for Team Canada?

 

[canucksfan]

No no, you´ve got it totally wrong Mr. Psychic. If Anatoli Firsov had played for the Soviets, the Canadians would have lost every game 100-0 and Phil Esposito would be a cab driver in Mongolia today.

Anyway, wasn´t Bobby Orr the bigger loss for Team Canada?

Bobby Orr was the bigger loss for Canada. He was coming off one of his best years. He would have been one of the few Canadian players able to keep up with the Soviets speed. It would have been interesting if he did play.

 

[MXD]

Hummm... Gretzky trade, it indirectly killed two canadian franchises.

As for the "on-ice" disaster, the 1992 debacle at the WJC is MUCH worse than Nagano...


1992 = DISASTER = LINDROS...

I like this one.

 

[canucksfan]

Hummm... Gretzky trade, it indirectly killed two canadian franchises.

As for the "on-ice" disaster, the 1993 (I think that's the good year) debacle at the WJC is MUCH worse than Nagano...


1993 = DISASTER = LINDROS...

I like this one.

In 1993 Canada won the Gold Medal that year. I think you mean the 1992 World Juniors.

 

[MXD]

In 1993 Canada won the Gold Medal that year. I think you mean the 1992 World Juniors.

Indeed, gonna edit my post, thanks

 

[Peter25]

As for international events the worst moment had to be the 1981 catastrophe. Losing 1-8 to the Russians, their arch enemies, before the fanatic Montreal Forum crowd must have been pretty humiliating and shocking!

BTW, from that point on every important Canada Cup game was refereed by a Canadian/North American referee. Swede Dag Olsson was the referee in the 1981 final. Maybe it was Eagleson who decided that we can't beat the Russians without our own ref .

I still have bad memories of Don Koharski and his "fair" refereeing from the 1987 Cup! Without him the Sovs would have taken that series IMO. Even with young Gretzky and Lemieux on Canada's side.