Speculation: What top 4D could Anders Lee return?

Discussion in 'Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk' started by CREW99AW, Apr 15, 2018 at 1:46 PM.

  1. 72hockey guy

    72hockey guy Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    thats wrong lee has had more goals than tarasenko the last two years combined and lee was paid less than half what tarasenko was. so as far as bang for the buck its not even close. yes tarasenko is signed longer, but id be willing to bet Lee signs for less than the 7.5M tarasenko is signed for
     
  2. EastonBlues22

    EastonBlues22 Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,097
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Trophy Points:
    228
    Location:
    Team ϶(°o°)ϵ
    I'm not insisting anything of the sort, and I'm not calling anyone discussed here "trash."

    The game and scoring baselines have changed, sure, but Tkachuk still peaked much higher relative to his peers than Lee ever has. I thought that was obvious given the numbers involved, but apparently it wasn't, so here are the relative rankings of the two compared to their peers:

    Tkachuk was the 29th highest scoring forward by points per game over an 8 year stretch from 92-93 to 99-00 (to age 27), minimum 200 games played. His best consecutive two year stretch in there he was 4th in goals per game and 11th in points per game among forwards, minimum 50 games played over that span.

    The last two years Lee was 9th in goals per game among forwards, and 77th in points per game, again with a minimum of 50 games played. Lee, of course, has nothing beyond the last two years worth discussing in this context.

    If you want to take it down to just one year to compare peaks, Lee finished 12th in goals per game and 68th in points per game among forwards in his best season, minimum 40 games played. Tkachuk beat both those relative rankings handily four straight years (averaging 5th best among forwards in goals per game and 12th best in points per game), from 95-96 through 98-99, again with a minimum of 40 games played each year.

    That's four consecutive years better, relative to his peers, than Lee's single best season through the same age. Clearly better in goal scoring, and a huge amount better in putting up points.

    Is that equalized enough to demonstrate the point? No matter how you slice it, Lee's peak just doesn't add up, and it's going to have to get a lot better to even come close.
     
  3. 72hockey guy

    72hockey guy Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    all well and good but they are still different eras, completely different so therefore totally irrelevant to values today

    its a specious argument its as i said earlier, if the Islanders were offered the same value (2 1st, a 2nd a 3rd and a player like Tkachuk was then lee would already be gone but trade values arent the same either

    no matter how you frame it it isnt apples to apples

    Tkatchuk was finished as a 30 goal scorer at 32 perhaps because of Lees later high use pattern he lasts longer especially with how players take care of themselves better nowadays you cant say that wont happen but your entire argument is flawed by your general assumptions

    the game and athletes in general have changed and im not even saying lee is equal to what Tkachuk was then because I dont know

    but i do know tkachuk couldnt hold a candle to Bossy Lafluer Gretzky Hawerchuk Selanne Dionne in his day, Hell he wasnt even in the conversation.

    but just like i dont compare them to todays players because the game is different you shouldnt either
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 at 11:48 PM
  4. EastonBlues22

    EastonBlues22 Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,097
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Trophy Points:
    228
    Location:
    Team ϶(°o°)ϵ
    It's not a specious argument. It's just one that you disagree with. This is the accepted way that most people compare players across different eras...by how they relatively stack up to their competition at the time. It's basically the accepted practice in all sports with any sort of meaningful history. Your belief that modern players simply can't be compared against older players in any meaningful way is a minority opinion. Most people believe that they can (with some caveats), and most people do.

    It's not like Tkachuk is even that old. His heyday was the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s. It's not like he was playing back in the 1960s or 1970s.

    Anyway, if you are going to dismiss any argument based upon stats out of hand because it isn't "apples to apples," and you won't simply take my word for it (having actually watched both players enough to form an opinion), in spite of you apparently not being able to say the same, then what's left to discuss? You think I'm wrong, and I disagree, but there's literally nothing that I can say to defend my opinion that you will listen to, much less say that might actually alter your opinion, so I think we're done here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 2:12 AM
  5. HawkeyTalkMan

    HawkeyTalkMan Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,429
    Likes Received:
    222
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Duncan Keith for Anders Lee and islanders 1st?

    Keith might not be a norris candidate anymore but surely a second tier no.1 dman at this point.

    Real question is the perceived Islanders Window vs what Keith has left in the tank
     
  6. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    35,211
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    214
    are you kidding?
    Zero interest in aging stars whose best yrs are well behind them and who have awful contracts.

    Seriously would not take that contract off waivers.
     
    IODCPiper likes this.
  7. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    35,211
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    214
    I think tip ins and rebounds in the dirty area are sustainable.
     
  8. 72hockey guy

    72hockey guy Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    you say that but you refuse to compare him to his ontemporaries. why, could it be because your argument falls apart?

    could it be that Lee is right there with Malkin Kucherov Matthews, ahead of your boy Tarasenko, i think thats it exactly. Islander players are used to the lack of respect .

    especially from teams like yours who have never won anything despite being around since before we existed
     
  9. EastonBlues22

    EastonBlues22 Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,097
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Trophy Points:
    228
    Location:
    Team ϶(°o°)ϵ
    Based upon what?

    And, for clarification's sake, at what level?

    The average shooting percentage for forwards in recent years is 10.8%. There's a big difference between sustaining a shooting percentage that is notably above average (say, in the 12-14% range, which is 11-30% above average), and sustaining one that's in the 18-19% range, which is 67-76% above average.
     
  10. EastonBlues22

    EastonBlues22 Administrator

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,097
    Likes Received:
    1,402
    Trophy Points:
    228
    Location:
    Team ϶(°o°)ϵ
    I didn't refuse to compare him to his contemporaries. That was part of my original post on the subject, which compared him to two different groups of players...all players since the '67 expansion, and (separately) against all active players.

    If the entire body of active players aren't his contemporaries, then who are?

    You just didn't like the conclusions that I drew from that comparison, and thus you subsequently discounted it. You can't say I "refuse" to do something that I've done, but that you simply disagreed with.

    I have no idea why you keep bringing up "my boy" Tarasenko, like this conversation is somehow related to him in anyway. You're the only one who has mentioned him, and it's pretty weak to keep doing it in some sort attempt to undermine the points I've made, as if I have some ulterior motivations or something.
     
  11. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    35,211
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Lee is not a perimeter player shying away from contact . So long as he is willing to park in the dirty areas and pay the physical price,he will be in good position for rebounds and tip ins.
    No reason he cannot continue put up 30-40 goals.
     
  12. 72hockey guy

    72hockey guy Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,365
    Likes Received:
    333
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Gender:
    Male
    BECAUSE it obviously is. as soon as you brought up tkachuk i knew it was all a set up to defend Tarasenko, but now i learned, I thought you were more fair minded than you obviously are

    a sophmore slump has nothing to do with age. it has to do with regressing to the mean and teams adjusting to a player. it doesnt mater whether your 19 or 49 if you come up at any age you can have success because no one knows you, but once you are known they get to know youre strengths, so you have to adjust thats a sophmore slump and that can happen at any age regardless of how old you are

    because adjustments are made on any player

    second to teach you something you obviously are clueless about, jerry west widely considered the best shooter in nba history had a career shooting percentage of .474. Shaquille Oneal , has a 582 career shooting percentage and it got better into his late 30s but he wasnt considered a "great Shooter"

    why because O'neal like Lee does most of his work in close, so guess what he is likely to keep his higher percentage. Tim Kerr, the closest comparable to Anders Lee in style of play had 5 seasons with a shooting percentage over 20% and a career shooting percentage of 19.4 and like lee he didnt get an early start either

    unfortunately he took a beating for it and had to retire early due to the beating he took like bossy but youre entire argument is ****, Lees shot percentage is a function of his style of play just like Shaquille O'neals and Kerrs was was playing in tight close to the goal or the rim depending on the sport. in fact odds say Lees shooting percentage may even go higher

    Tarasenko on the other hand has seen his shot percentage fall every single year since he was 22 ans will likely never return to what is was his first season because teams adjusted to him

    ive lost all respect i had for you because you didnt even recognize the obvious
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2018 at 3:59 AM
  13. Brock Radunske

    Brock Radunske 안양종합운동장 빙상장

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,099
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Am I honestly reading that NYIs fans are seriously comparing Tarasenko and Lee?
    My god....they've finally cracked.
     
  14. SCMURRAY

    SCMURRAY Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    309
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Long Island
    Gardiner or Muzzin
     
  15. Brock Radunske

    Brock Radunske 안양종합운동장 빙상장

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,099
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Neither the Leafs or Kings would trade a top-4 defender for a scoring winger who is looking to get paid.
    I'd be concerned about his numbers after leaving and getting a big contract, too.*

    *Reference: Okoposo, Moulsen, PAP
     
  16. peterthegreat12

    peterthegreat12 Hopeless Caps fan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2011
    Messages:
    2,584
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Washington DC
    I'm not sold on Lee, so that is a hard pass.
     
  17. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    35,211
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    214
    I don't need to compare him to anyone. 36 goals last season and 40 goals this season speaks for itself.
     
  18. CREW99AW

    CREW99AW Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    35,211
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    214
    I would not want Gardiner for Lee.
     
    IODCPiper likes this.
  19. Colt55

    Colt55 Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Information Security
    Location:
    st. Louis
    I think is laughable how you chose your stats. For starters lee had 2 more goals over last two years but he also had 27 fewer total points. in the same instance let's go back 4-5 years and the younger more consistent tarasenko blows anders lee out of the water and with out a legit #1c center so once again your comparis on is flawed. You sir are graspin at straws.
     
  20. Colt55

    Colt55 Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Information Security
    Location:
    st. Louis
    One year of lee hitting 40 and know you think he is on level of tarasenko. He is one year older and has scored two more goals in last two years lol. If you wanna go back last five years the older anders lee has 47 less goals than tarasenko and tarasenko over that time has 126 more points than lee. There is no comparison
     
    Brock Radunske likes this.
  21. nhlfan1991

    nhlfan1991 Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Heard Hamilton or hamonic might be on the block. Could be base of a trade if true
     
  22. seabass45

    seabass45 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2007
    Messages:
    6,109
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Can I chime in as an Isles fan to say any comparison between Tarasenko and Lee is dumb? Tarasenko is way better. Thanks.
     
  23. Brock Radunske

    Brock Radunske 안양종합운동장 빙상장

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,099
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Saying Lee is a comparable/better scorer than Tank (based on the last two years) is like saying Kadri (16/17 + 17/18) is a better goal scorer than Stamkos (15/16* + 17/18)

    See how crazy that sounds?




    *Stamkos missed most of 2016/17 so I used 15/16 + 17/18
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 at 11:17 AM
    Colt55 likes this.
  24. CodeE

    CodeE Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    7,972
    Likes Received:
    998
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Again, Lee is not comparable to Tarasenko. They score their goals in different ways and are different types of players. Lee's comparables are guys like Hornqvist, Simmonds, JVR, etc.

    But, as predicted, someone took a shot at a Blues player and now Blues fans have shown up to defend him. I guess I need to call all those Blues fans insecure and projecting their hangups about Tarasenko onto us. Or maybe they're just defending one of their best players like any team would do and I don't need to write them all off as "insecure".
     
    IODCPiper likes this.
  25. Colt55

    Colt55 Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    98
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Information Security
    Location:
    st. Louis
    I think it's hilarious when people pick and chose stats like that...
     
    Brock Radunske likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"