What is the NHLPA thinking?

[gary69]

So why are the Ranger$ such a laughing stock? They have what amounts to an unlimited budget, therefore great hockey should follow them around remoras to a shark...

I don't see it being really important from fan's point of view, what is the factor determinating that good/great players could end up playing for the same franchise at any given year. As long as it is allowed to happen, and not categorically prevented from happening (by e.g. hard cap), leading to a league-wide mediocrity.

I just think it would be very hard to ensure it better and without destortions by any other system than money-based system. (Some) owners might of course think otherwise, it would more convenient for them to build up great teams without actually having to pay for it (players) and instead pocket the money themselves.

 

[garry1221]

I don't see it being really important from fan's point of view, what is the factor determinating that good/great players could end up playing for the same franchise at any given year. As long as it is allowed to happen, and not categorically prevented from happening (by e.g. hard cap), leading to a league-wide mediocrity.

I just think it would be very hard to ensure it better and without destortions by any other system than money-based system. (Some) owners might of course think otherwise, it would more convenient for them to build up great teams without actually having to pay for it (players) and instead pocket the money themselves.

how is a hard cap categorically preventing good players from playing together? you see players play for lesser price quite often, especially if the team they're signing with has commited to nothing less than a stanley cup at the end of the season. the only thing that matters to these players is the money, if it didn't matter we'd be watching the '05 nhl season right now.

 

[PecaFan]

What if they and the owners get what they want, and great hockey is gone for good?

Because after all, there was no great hockey before salaries exploded in the early 90's.

Ask most people, and they'll tell you that modern hockey is crap, and it was way better in the 80's, 70's, or 60's, depending on how old they are.

There was great hockey when the players were paid peanuts and the NHLPA didn't even exist. A modern cap is going to be worse than that? Give me a break.

 

[garry1221]

Because after all, there was no great hockey before salaries exploded in the early 90's.

Ask most people, and they'll tell you that modern hockey is crap, and it was way better in the 80's, 70's, or 60's, depending on how old they are.

There was great hockey when the players were paid peanuts and the NHLPA didn't even exist. A modern cap is going to be worse than that? Give me a break.

agreed completely, after all, back then it was players playing more for the love of the game, you saw heart, passion, fire on the ice. Nowadays that's rarely seen, or at least not seen with any consistancy.

 

[Chelios]

What if they and the owners get what they want, and great hockey is gone for good?

What a load of crap.

How is it that you NHLPA can say that there will never be good hockey with a cap? Is there no great football in the NFL? Or no good basketball in the NBA? To say that teams will have to rip apart their teams to get under the cap is rediculous, if anything good players would be more likely to stay with their teams rather than move to others simply because they wouldn`t make much more anywhere else, also they could accept less money without the NHLPA jumping all over them.

 

[thinkwild]

What a load of crap.

How is it that you NHLPA can say that there will never be good hockey with a cap? Is there no great football in the NFL? Or no good basketball in the NBA? To say that teams will have to rip apart their teams to get under the cap is rediculous, if anything good players would be more likely to stay with their teams rather than move to others simply because they wouldn`t make much more anywhere else, also they could accept less money without the NHLPA jumping all over them.

This is definitely the perception people have of a cap. That good players will be more likely to stay and everyone will just simply get less money. I think evidence shows the opposite. The cap forces continual player movement, especially away from teams with lots of good players. It rips rosters apart completely arbitrary to good team building decision. The cap will have a disastous effect on hockey far wider than simply lowering salaries.

The NFL has achieved mediocrity at the expense of greatness. But profits for owners are obscene. To me this is a poor measurement for success for fans to take.


The NFL cap is a joke and promotes mediocrity. NFL Cap Blows
Tell me if this guy in this link raises any points you feel the NHL should be concerned about and try to avoid.

 

[two out of three*]

This is definitely the perception people have of a cap. That good players will be more likely to stay and everyone will just simply get less money. I think evidence shows the opposite. The cap forces continual player movement, especially away from teams with lots of good players. It rips rosters apart completely arbitrary to good team building decision. The cap will have a disastous effect on hockey far wider than simply lowering salaries.

The NFL has achieved mediocrity at the expense of greatness. But profits for owners are obscene. To me this is a poor measurement for success for fans to take.


The NFL cap is a joke and promotes mediocrity. NFL Cap Blows
Tell me if this guy in this link raises any points you feel the NHL should be concerned about and try to avoid.

Player movement always happens, its a part of sports. There is player movement on EVERY team, EVERY year. EVERY Trade Deadline somebody makes a move. Its not like there is a completely different team on the ice, or on the field every year though. It is almost the same, but there are a few tweaks (as it is with every sport.)

NFL Cap promotes mediocrity? How can you say that? Most teams in the NFL have a chance to compete for a playoff appearance every year.

 

[thinkwild]

NFL Cap promotes mediocrity? How can you say that? Most teams in the NFL have a chance to compete for a playoff appearance every year.

I think that statement shows a total lack of respect for the pursuit of excellence in sports and how great teams are built and created.

Heres another link for you. Read them. I think at the very least they should make you raise some concerns. Like this one:
NFL Cap Promotes Mediocrity

The No Fun League now stands for the overall boring product the league puts on the field.

The new reality in the NFL has made teams much more even, but that redistribution of wealth has killed much of the drama.

Teams routinely move from worst to first in a season. Free agency and the salary cap kills any chance of founding a dynasty. Those dynasties turned the the NFL into the money-making fiend it is today

Agents determine winning and losing teams more than coaches in this day and age.

Despite the parity, the NFL has gotten stale and boring. No more great teams. Mediocrity rules the day. Empires rise and fall in the space of one off-season.
Every team has holes, and true upsets have disappeared.

 

[Chelios]

Heres another link for you. Read them. I think at the very least they should make you raise some concerns.

And yet it is by far and away the most profitable and stable sporting league in North America, if not the world. To say that it promotes mediocrity is a load of crap, the author is simply lamenting that a team cannot build a team just because it has alot of money, which is exactly what they are looking to prevent in the NHL. If the league is so mediocre, the games are so boring and all the drama is gone than why is it that stadiums are full for every game? Why is it that so many people watch on TV? To say that the NFL has descended to mediocrity because of a cap is ludacris.

 

[hunter1909*]

Great Post.

Honestly don`t even bother posting if you are simply going to spew your ignorant sarcasm without even addressing any of the points I have made.

Of course I would expect nothing less from you.

SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO FEEL IMPORTANT...BUT THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN DO THAT IS TO POINT OUT OTHER PEOPLES VIEWS AS NOT BEING COOL...

JUST LIKE THE LOSER WHO WROTE THIS ATTACK...AND OFFERED NOTHING BETTER IN RETURN

 

[thinkwild]

And yet it is by far and away the most profitable and stable sporting league in North America, if not the world. To say that it promotes mediocrity is a load of crap, the author is simply lamenting that a team cannot build a team just because it has alot of money, which is exactly what they are looking to prevent in the NHL. If the league is so mediocre, the games are so boring and all the drama is gone than why is it that stadiums are full for every game? Why is it that so many people watch on TV? To say that the NFL has descended to mediocrity because of a cap is ludacris.

Im not saying it. People involved in the NFL, their fans and media are saying it. That what all these articles are. I dont see how you can just dismiss them all.

I think they raise some good points. You may choose to define a great league as the one that generates the most profits for its owners, but i dont.

NFL Cap promotes mediiocrity

Get used to more and more of the No Fun League. The old days have passed. There will never be another team like the Joe Montana 49ers. Greedy agents, greedy players and greedy executives will make sure nobody gets too good.

Right now, money means more to the No Fun League than quality. All the NFL Films propaganda cannot hide the slippage. The NFL can hide its deficiencies with sharp marketing, image and reputation built years ago. But that cannot last forever.

If the fans ever wake up and see exactly how bad the product is, the No Fun League will have problems.

But right now, the word that best describes the state of the No Fun League is "Bor-ing."

 

[PecaFan]

Im not saying it. People involved in the NFL, their fans and media are saying it. That what all these articles are. I dont see how you can just dismiss them all.

No, one guy in Amarillo is saying it. Which isn't even an NFL city. Meanwhile, millions upon millions of fans love the NFL, as well as the owners and players. But we're supposed to take this joker's word from nearly five years ago as gospel?

And personally, I think he's full of crap, and I'm not even an NFL fan. There are no great teams? I think the Patriots with 2 recent championships and an all time undefeated streak would have something to say about that.

 

[thinkwild]

No, one guy in Amarillo is saying it. Which isn't even an NFL city. Meanwhile, millions upon millions of fans love the NFL, as well as the owners and players. But we're supposed to take this joker's word from nearly five years ago as gospel?

And personally, I think he's full of crap, and I'm not even an NFL fan. There are no great teams? I think the Patriots with 2 recent championships and an all time undefeated streak would have something to say about that.

I've given you quite a few links, not just one guy. And listening to them talk about it on pregame shows and during the game, they always seem to be saying things like, well thats just the way it is now in the capped NFL. They never say its good or better, just the new way.

LIke this guy:
Anyway NFL slices it cap spells mediocrity

"But instead of being negative, instead of just saying it's bad football, the fans should be positive about what they are seeing," Campo said. "Every team has a chance to go to the playoffs. It's as competitive as I've ever seen the league."

Yeah, but Dave, c'mon man.

"Like I said, I'm not going to say it's bad," Campo answered. "It's just different, that's all."
[....poke]
"It's parity, that's what it is," Campo said. What it really is, is a combo of salary cap and free agency, but why bicker? Parity is just a fancy word for mediocrity

Kinda had to pul that one out of him, he didnt want to badmouth the league.


Or how about Pro Football Weekly
NFL Cap a joke

In practice, of course, the salary cap has been shot full of holes, almost as many holes as the NBA’s cap.

I do know that the NFL could have come up with a better system than the one they have now. Clubs have learned how to circumvent the intent of the salary cap, making it a farce.

As Arkush points out, teams such as the Redskins and the Ravens can spend way above the cap because they have such lucrative stadium deals, and stadium revenue is not shared with other clubs

It’s no wonder that despite the salary cap, the rich continue to get richer

The cap means the rich get richer and the players and fans get ripped off.

Are the Pats a great team, or just a good team in a league of no great teams.

 

[Chelios]

Its funny how the pro NHLPA people love to compare other leagues when it benefits them, but when the comparison benefits the owners side of the argument (like the president of the NFLPA saying he likes the cap, the NFL being the most successful league in North America, numerous players coming out saying that they don`t mind the cap at all) they simply say that you can`t compare two completely different leagues.

 

[thinkwild]

They are different, and you cant compare them. But we can learn from their mistakes. I think a lot of these articles represent a lot of the problems associated with a cap. How it really changed things instead of how we thought it would change things. I think they are good points. Some of them worry me, and I dont want the NHL to make those mistakes.

And im not really pro nhlpa. Im pro best interest of the fans. Which I dont think the owners stated position serves well at all.

 

[quat]

They are different, and you cant compare them. But we can learn from their mistakes. I think a lot of these articles represent a lot of the problems associated with a cap. How it really changed things instead of how we thought it would change things. I think they are good points. Some of them worry me, and I dont want the NHL to make those mistakes.

And im not really pro nhlpa. Im pro best interest of the fans. Which I dont think the owners stated position serves well at all.

Ha ha ha ha ha .... ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

The fans! Yes... the fans!!!! That is really really really funny.

Doesn't it stike you as odd that the majority of FANS find your opinions unrealistic and distasteful as you get all puffed up speaking for them? I'll accept your opinion as your own, but don't try fobbing off your malarky as in the best interest of fans.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

Its funny how the pro NHLPA people love to compare other leagues when it benefits them, but when the comparison benefits the owners side of the argument (like the president of the NFLPA saying he likes the cap, the NFL being the most successful league in North America, numerous players coming out saying that they don`t mind the cap at all) they simply say that you can`t compare two completely different leagues.

Ofcourse the NFL likes thier cap, there is a way around it. Thats why Peyton Manning got a 34 million dollar signing bonus check this summer. Just like the NHLPA the NFLPA looks outs for it's stars and the stars in the NFL are cashing in.

 

[YellHockey*]

Doesn't it stike you as odd that the majority of FANS find your opinions unrealistic and distasteful as you get all puffed up speaking for them? I'll accept your opinion as your own, but don't try fobbing off your malarky as in the best interest of fans.

That's only because the majority of them are not smart enough to see the contradictions, lies and distortions that the owners are putting out.

Gary Bettman was talking about how the PA has a history of deadline waiting last night on TSN. Does he not know about the owners much longer history of lying and crying poor?

 

[quat]

That's only because the majority of them are not smart enough to see the contradictions, lies and distortions that the owners are putting out.

Gary Bettman was talking about how the PA has a history of deadline waiting last night on TSN. Does he not know about the owners much longer history of lying and crying poor?

Look, I've enjoyed reading both sides of this, and at times your opinions as well. But you and ThinkWild and the other three or four posters who blindly support the NHLPA don't bother it seems to think very hard about what you post.

Like this post from you as an example. Posters or fans who disagree with you just aren't smart enough to understand the situation. Only the Owners and Bettman lie, but never the NHLPA. This alone pretty much makes anything you write seem questionable.

It is possible to understand anothers position yet still disagree with it, but you and several others do nothing of the kind. Everything is simple and black and white, and yet any impartial outside person would see it's not so.

We are all obviously hockey fans here... being a hockey chat board after all... so saying I support hockey fans when a large majority disagree with what you say seems kind of lame... especially saying it's because they're not smart enough to know what's good for them. But that was you saying that wasn't it?

 

[Chelios]

They are different, and you cant compare them. But we can learn from their mistakes.

Again, if you can`t compare them, don`t compare them! You are saying that they are completely different and can`t be compared and then you go and say that we can learn from their mistakes. What is there to learn from if they are so incredibly different?

 

[YellHockey*]

Only the Owners and Bettman lie, but never the NHLPA. This alone pretty much makes anything you write seem questionable.

When have the PA lied?

Have they done anything as deceitful as the NHL had when it claimed that the PA wouldn't meet with them, all the while the two sides were holding meetings with a non-disclosure agreement in place?

 

[417]

When have the PA lied?

Have they done anything as deceitful as the NHL had when it claimed that the PA wouldn't meet with them, all the while the two sides were holding meetings with a non-disclosure agreement in place?

Well the PA is lying to themselves if they think they can win this, they have no leverage, ZERO!!!!

They put in questions the owners numbers, saying they don't include parking, concessions, etc.

But what about the players and their endorsements? so it's ok for players to make money of the NHL, but the owners can't?

 

[YellHockey*]

Well the PA is lying to themselves if they think they can win this, they have no leverage, ZERO!!!!

They have plenty of leverage because they are the product. Without the players the owners don't get over $2B in revenues.

But what about the players and their endorsements? so it's ok for players to make money of the NHL, but the owners can't?

What about players and their endorsements? The owners can make plenty of money in the NHL. The Canucks have been. The Maple Leafs have been. The Senators have been, even though their owner will deny it to tow the party line. The Wild have been.

 

[copperandblue]

They have plenty of leverage because they are the product. Without the players the owners don't get over $2B in revenues.

I disagree that the players are the product but that's beside the point.

More importantly, perhaps the owners don't need 2 billion in revenue.

If they can make money with only 1 billion in revenue, would they not be better off than losing money with 2 billion in revenue?

 

[thinkwild]

Ha ha ha ha ha .... ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

The fans! Yes... the fans!!!! That is really really really funny.

Doesn't it stike you as odd that the majority of FANS find your opinions unrealistic and distasteful as you get all puffed up speaking for them? I'll accept your opinion as your own, but don't try fobbing off your malarky as in the best interest of fans.

Fobbing off your malarky? Mom?? No really, my mom used to say that, so you must be on to something.

I recognize some of these views I put forth are a minority view. Spurs me to do it.

If I post as if everything is black and white, just as an aside, let me assure you, I am seeking answers, I have none. But I find a lot of conventional wisdom crazy. I feel the mob is marching with an effigy of Goodenow saying- burn the witch! And im saying its not in their best interests. No, I dont speak for the majority, you're right.

Like Pierre Dagenais saying he'll play for a cap and the rich players arent looking out for his interests. But when he gets informed on the issues, even he a hockey player, his eyes open. He sees it from a different perspective. He realizes its not easy. He now thinks they have many good points and is supporting the union. He certainly didnt get strong-armed into that. He got persuaded by logic and facts.

We fans dont get those all those facts. I wonder what would happen to our views if we really did? Most fans have never heard someone explain why a hard cap wouldnt work. Its unfathomable to many that a case could even be made. A hard cap just seems such an obvious easy answer. Dagenais changed his mind.