What is the cause of the massive conference disparity?

OMG67

Registered User
Sep 1, 2013
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You are right about the financial part of it all. But you can't really use the Kitchener Rangers as a good example. I've been following this team for decades. Only once since 1985 have they gone out and used money to hire the best guy available. That would be when they brought in Peter DeBoer in 2001. Otherwise, each and every head coach hiring was done the cheap way - promotion of an assistant who was just happy to have the job while not truly considering more worthy candidates/applicants from outside the organization.

(Some may point to the hiring of Steve Spott as a little bit of an exception. He may have been the best man available but just so happened to be our assistant coach at the time).

Were some of these assistants worthy of a head-coaching position? Some were but many were not. Perhaps the Rangers use their finances to hire the best available assistant coach. That person may be an aspiring head coach who accepts an assistant coaches job knowing that there is a very good chance down the road they will be given an opportunity to be the head coach.

Good point. I did consider DeBoer and I may have even mentioned him specifically. I believe when they did hire him he was the highest paid int he league. Spot was clearly the best candidate for the job when he was hired. He was DeBoer’s assistant for four years in Plymouth and then his assistant while in Kitchener until he left.

Those two guys covered off over 10 years of coaching duties and both were paid handsomely. If we are considering the formative years of this new approach to hockey organizations, I would suggest that these two covered off the most important time frame.

Kitchener has gone through a few guys since Spott left. Mostly ex-players. VanRyn was the head coach for one year but left to take over the reigns in the AHL for Phoenix. So he left for an upgrade. The jury is out on McKee since he only has one year in but by all accounts he has done well.

There is something to be said about hiring your assistants for the purpose of development. That is the way it should be done. Stronger organizations pay their assistants very well for that specific purpose. Ottawa did that for years in preparation for Kilrea to depart. Unfortunately, none of them worked out well! Peter Lee lasted one season before Killer came back to take over because of the poor results. Vince MAllette was supposed tot age over but ended up in Peterborough where he didn’t fair well. Chris Byrne took over for Killer and didn’t fair well. So, the 67’s went back to the drawing board and hired outside the last two times. Jeff Brown was good but he had issues I guess. Now we have Tourigny. He has done OK but it is still early to tell.

Point being that you can do it either way but I don’t believe Kitchener did it the cheap way. They may have spent their money prudently the last four years but it doesn’t mean they cheaped out.
 

youngblood10

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Jan 26, 2010
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Place me in the camp that it's all about resourses over the long haul. Teams will try new approches, ideas, structures etc... and at times end up ahead of the curve in one regard or another. Benifit from that until the other organizations catch up. Then the team with the most resourses will out spend & buy the best of that given commodity.

Look at money ball as an example. The A's had strong teams leaning on analytics for a competitive edge. Red Sox seeing they had something bought into it and won a few world series. Eclipsing the A's who have now lost that advantage as baseball has caught up.
 

Fischhaber

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Sep 3, 2014
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Place me in the camp that it's all about resourses over the long haul. Teams will try new approches, ideas, structures etc... and at times end up ahead of the curve in one regard or another. Benifit from that until the other organizations catch up. Then the team with the most resourses will out spend & buy the best of that given commodity.

Look at money ball as an example. The A's had strong teams leaning on analytics for a competitive edge. Red Sox seeing they had something bought into it and won a few world series. Eclipsing the A's who have now lost that advantage as baseball has caught up.

That may be true in other sports, but it absolutely does not explain the conference disparity in the OHL. Wealthy teams in the East continue to struggle, while small markets in the West find success more often than not.l
 

bobber

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Jan 21, 2013
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Kitchener Ontario
One complaint or conspiracy about the West was that players would fall to certain teams because they refuse to play anywhere else giving them an unfair advantage. I think when you look at the big picture it does happen but the point is it happens league wide because some parents want their sons closer to home. Look at the McLeod brothers in Missy as an example. Never did much for the franchise and both are considered excellent players.
I think this season their are strong teams on both sides with the Soo being the outlier. Looking at the Soo they are basically the franchise that other franchises should use as a prototype and yet they are one of the farthest teams travel wise in the league. You would think it would be one of the last teams parents would want their kids drafted by but it's not the case anymore.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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There is no hiding the fact the West has had a good run. The West has a lot of geographical advantages over the East. That has a lot to do with things like travel and where players want to play. Sure, teams like Sault Ste Marie have been on a good run and that flies in the face of this logic but there will always be anomalies with any argument on either side.

The reality is there are two particular teams that drove the bus in a new direction. It started with London and shifted to Windsor for a bit. They changed the landscape. I am 100% certaint here were shenanigans going on and Windsor faced sanctions over those shenanigans. I think London got away with it. HEy, if you ain’t cheatin’ you ain’t tryin’!

When you have a particular franchise driving the bus in a new direction combined with heavy conference play, you create a two sided competition base. The eastern teams don’t really need to concern themselves with what the Western teams are doing. The western teams don’t really need to concern themselves with what the eastern teams are doing. Their only concerns are their direct competition and that is inter-conference.

London is everyone’s favourite whipping post. But, they changed the way the league operates. Teams in the WEST NEED to keep pace if they want to ever see success. Teams like Windsor cheated to get there. Others like Sault Ste Marie added an analytics guru to seize an advantage. Others choose to go through brutal feast and famine cycles (Erie). To each their own. There are different strategies based on ech teams abilities.

The East is more conservative because they don’t necessarily have the same flagship organizations that drive the bus inter-conference. Strength tends to be shifted from one season to the next. They do what they need to do to win their conference. They don’t look at the other conference when decisions are made. From a financial perspective, this makes sense. You make the same amount losing the Final as you do winning the Final.

The West also has more riches from a financial perspective. The East has teams in a more precarious situation financially. Even the bigger market teams like Ottawa are losing big money right now.

In the end, everything runs in cycles. This cycle is running through the West. It will shift sooner or later to the East.
 

Steelman

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Sep 26, 2016
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One complaint or conspiracy about the West was that players would fall to certain teams because they refuse to play anywhere else giving them an unfair advantage. I think when you look at the big picture it does happen but the point is it happens league wide because some parents want their sons closer to home. Look at the McLeod brothers in Missy as an example. Never did much for the franchise and both are considered excellent players.
I think this season their are strong teams on both sides with the Soo being the outlier. Looking at the Soo they are basically the franchise that other franchises should use as a prototype and yet they are one of the farthest teams travel wise in the league. You would think it would be one of the last teams parents would want their kids drafted by but it's not the case anymore.

Just for clarification, the Mcleod brothers helped Mississauga win the Eastern Conference Championship last year, but I get your point.

I think a simple explanation is that the Western Conference teams have more money invested in their teams, which makes it easier for players to commit who may be considering school instead, making them more competitive which in turns makes players want to report even more. Some of these teams have been known to bend the benefit and recruitment rules. ;) (Windsor)
 

NorthernVoice

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Oct 5, 2017
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The East is more conservative because they don’t necessarily have the same flagship organizations that drive the bus inter-conference. Strength tends to be shifted from one season to the next. They do what they need to do to win their conference. They don’t look at the other conference when decisions are made. From a financial perspective, this makes sense. You make the same amount losing the Final as you do winning the Final.
You've made this point a couple times but I'm not sure it's by choice that this happens. Peterborough was willing to trade for Stephens/Cirelli/Bracco etc... last year, they just wouldn't come here, which you then see in the price they did end up paying to get SOMEONE (in this case Korostelev and Paquette) to try to make that big push.

Edit - this also hurts the future years as they have to pay more (in terms of picks/package) for less. You can point to the several years of struggles before that as why the players wouldn't report but when they have to pay a premium for lesser talent when they do turn it around through scouting/drafting, it makes it an uphill climb.
 
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bobber

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Jan 21, 2013
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There is no hiding the fact the West has had a good run. The West has a lot of geographical advantages over the East. That has a lot to do with things like travel and where players want to play. Sure, teams like Sault Ste Marie have been on a good run and that flies in the face of this logic but there will always be anomalies with any argument on either side.

The reality is there are two particular teams that drove the bus in a new direction. It started with London and shifted to Windsor for a bit. They changed the landscape. I am 100% certaint here were shenanigans going on and Windsor faced sanctions over those shenanigans. I think London got away with it. HEy, if you ain’t cheatin’ you ain’t tryin’!

When you have a particular franchise driving the bus in a new direction combined with heavy conference play, you create a two sided competition base. The eastern teams don’t really need to concern themselves with what the Western teams are doing. The western teams don’t really need to concern themselves with what the eastern teams are doing. Their only concerns are their direct competition and that is inter-conference.

London is everyone’s favourite whipping post. But, they changed the way the league operates. Teams in the WEST NEED to keep pace if they want to ever see success. Teams like Windsor cheated to get there. Others like Sault Ste Marie added an analytics guru to seize an advantage. Others choose to go through brutal feast and famine cycles (Erie). To each their own. There are different strategies based on ech teams abilities.

The East is more conservative because they don’t necessarily have the same flagship organizations that drive the bus inter-conference. Strength tends to be shifted from one season to the next. They do what they need to do to win their conference. They don’t look at the other conference when decisions are made. From a financial perspective, this makes sense. You make the same amount losing the Final as you do winning the Final.

The West also has more riches from a financial perspective. The East has teams in a more precarious situation financially. Even the bigger market teams like Ottawa are losing big money right now.

In the end, everything runs in cycles. This cycle is running through the West. It will shift sooner or later to the East.
Good points OMG67. Some teams in the east are basically in the same geographical range as the west. I think a lot comes down to particular demographics and the state of the economy in the area where the franchise is located. There are teams in the west and east that really don't fill their barns enough to be really profitable and that must effect the benefits they can provide to their staff and players. I think you are correct on it being cyclical. Didn't the 67s have large fan base a few years back? There are just so many variables that can have an effect on franchises. Having a knowledgeable GM and a good scouting staff along with competitive coaching can make or break a franchise. Owners have to want to be successful and not line their pockets without putting something back.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Good points OMG67. Some teams in the east are basically in the same geographical range as the west. I think a lot comes down to particular demographics and the state of the economy in the area where the franchise is located. There are teams in the west and east that really don't fill their barns enough to be really profitable and that must effect the benefits they can provide to their staff and players. I think you are correct on it being cyclical. Didn't the 67s have large fan base a few years back? There are just so many variables that can have an effect on franchises. Having a knowledgeable GM and a good scouting staff along with competitive coaching can make or break a franchise. Owners have to want to be successful and not line their pockets without putting something back.

In all fairness, I don't think owners are in it for the money. I think they are in it because they like junior hockey. Some exceptions of course.
 

ScoresFromCentre

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Jan 29, 2016
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You've made this point a couple times but I'm not sure it's by choice that this happens. Peterborough was willing to trade for Stephens/Cirelli/Bracco etc... last year, they just wouldn't come here, which you then see in the price they did end up paying to get SOMEONE (in this case Korostelev and Paquette) to try to make that big push.

Edit - this also hurts the future years as they have to pay more (in terms of picks/package) for less. You can point to the several years of struggles before that as why the players wouldn't report but when they have to pay a premium for lesser talent when they do turn it around through scouting/drafting, it makes it an uphill climb.

This is an excellent point that often gets overlooked. The Paquette trade was bonkers.
 

Snippit

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Dec 5, 2012
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Full props to Hamilton.

But even though they won, the stats were so heavily swayed in favour of the West that this barely puts a dent in it.

But it is interesting to note that 2 of the last 4 OHL winners come from the Eastern Conference. It would be nice to see it even out.
 

Generalsupdates

@GeneralsUpdates on Twitter
Sep 4, 2017
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Full props to Hamilton.

But even though they won, the stats were so heavily swayed in favour of the West that this barely puts a dent in it.

But it is interesting to note that 2 of the last 4 OHL winners come from the Eastern Conference. It would be nice to see it even out.

I know I was being facetious.

Although when it's the East Division representing the Easern Conference in the OHL final, the West hasn't won in over a decade (Central Division is 0-8 over the last 10 years in the OHL final)
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Hamilton and Kingston both pulled out all the stops heading into the Deadline and it showed. Hamilton was the class of the East all year. They had a very strong team. I didn’t think any team in the East would touch them and I was right. Not that that says much.

SSM was very strong all year. But, Hamilton seemed to be the better team the second half...aka...playing as a team.

I think we are starting to see snippets of instances where the new rules for the draft and the willingness of Eastern Teams to overspend in the right situations will start bearing fruit.

The reality is the pool of teams in the East with the resources to compete is fewer which will skew the points vs points of East vs West but I think we wills tart to see the top Eastern Team vs the Top Western Team have its gap closed.
 

Duke Guy

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Sep 10, 2013
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Let me update the Robertson Cup championship totals over the past 17 years:

Western Conference teams: 14

Eastern Conference teams: 3

The gap tightens. LOL.
 

BenchedGuy

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Nov 26, 2009
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Kitchener
One thing I think has merit is your rivals pushing you to be better. You look at the midwest alone and for the most part every team wants their organization to be able to beat London or Owen Sound or Kitchener. Do other fan bases think this way? Does Peterborough build their team to beat Hamilton or Kingston this year? Maybe not a good analogy but do Divisions look within to be better?
 

dirty12

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Mar 6, 2015
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One thing I think has merit is your rivals pushing you to be better. You look at the midwest alone and for the most part every team wants their organization to be able to beat London or Owen Sound or Kitchener. Do other fan bases think this way? Does Peterborough build their team to beat Hamilton or Kingston this year? Maybe not a good analogy but do Divisions look within to be better?

Playing an unbalanced schedule and being in the mid-west was probably hard on Guelph’s record. Guelph may have had a better team than Miss & NB; yet, picked ahead of them in the draft.
This likely occurs frequently, making it tough for eastern teams to catch up
A couple of times previous to this season, Kitchener finished 3rd in the mid-west; and picked accordingly. Had they been in any other division, they may have added, and won that division.
 
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MisterDB

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Apr 5, 2012
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The absolute main cause for conference disparity is that there are conferences. Get rid of them, 1-20 rank, shake the deck and get rid of unbalanced scheduling or at least modify it. This will force the east and everybody to at least build more competitive teams to try and stay with the Londons and Windors.
 

Truthking

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Mar 27, 2016
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The absolute main cause for conference disparity is that there are conferences. Get rid of them, 1-20 rank, shake the deck and get rid of unbalanced scheduling or at least modify it. This will force the east and everybody to at least build more competitive teams to try and stay with the Londons and Windors.
How would you work an unbalanced schedule?
 

EvenSteven

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Sep 3, 2009
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Hamilton did well in the finals. But they had the benefit of an easier road to the finals than their opponent.

I think if they had played the Soo, or either of Kitchener or Owen Sound for that matter, they possibly lose had they had the same quality of opponent in the first three rounds.
 
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dirty12

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Mar 6, 2015
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Hamilton did well in the finals. But they had the benefit of an easier road to the finals than their opponent.

I think if they had played the Soo, or either of Kitchener or Owen Sound for that matter, they possibly lose had they had the same quality of opponent in the first three rounds.

With home advantage, Hamilton probably beats Kitchener, OS, 4-1 just like they did Ottawa, Niagara, Kingston.
 

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