What is Jake Gardiner??

Discussion in 'Toronto Maple Leafs' started by DatSnipeMatthews, Mar 1, 2018.

?

what is Jake Gardiner?

  1. #1 D

    4.3%
  2. #2 D

    23.1%
  3. #3 D

    47.1%
  4. #4 D

    20.2%
  5. bottom pairing D

    5.3%
  1. Ziggdiezan

    Ziggdiezan Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2015
    Messages:
    3,299
    Likes Received:
    734
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Ah thought you were talking about Gardiner
     
  2. ITM

    ITM As Long As It Takes

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes Received:
    335
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Well, notice in the hypothetical scenario (if I were Lou), I'm moving Reilly for Horvat. So we seem to agree at the very least that there's a perception that Reilly is, or could be, a number one defenceman given my desired return (i.e. Bo Horvat). Contextually, I'm not so certain that Reilly's a true, game-changing, impact franchise D in the way Drew Doughty's been. I also wouldn't shift MR's objective value (whether real or perceived real #1D) for the sake of a hypothetical model/preference against Reilly. He's a good young defenceman. Maybe he turns out to be an objectively number one, impact D, but Reilly's potential and Gardiner's present actuality are inverse in most polls, opinions I've come across.

    OT somewhat for a moment...For those saying Tavares is the player to target if he's available, it causes me to recall Cherry's oft-proven maxim that number one guys want to be number one guys and their success seems to wax and wane depending upon actual and perceived status within their club. We bring Tavares in (versus say a lower profile Horvat) and I wonder what that does to the development of Auston Matthews, whose all but been named our imminent captain. Picture it, in walks Tavares, a 27 year old NHL captain, born in Toronto, likely signed for "Matthews money", and that doesn't have a somewhat disconcerting effect on AM34 going forward?

    Conversely, moving in a Drew Doughty or an Erik Karlsson is the kind of move we should desire (provided we have the means) given their much rarer position as true number one defenceman. Morgan Reilly isn't (in kind) a number one D in the mold of the examples mentioned. This to say, were we to move out Reilly, our depth at position of players like him (i.e. Jake Gardiner) or emerging like him (i.e. Travis Dermott, Timothy Liljegren) isn't truly comprised.

    Now say, for example, that we acquired Bo Horvat for Morgan Reilly. The effect is, Nazem Kadri (at 27 and at 4.5M) becomes our third line center until the end of his contract. Bo Horvat (at 22 and at 5.5M) becomes our second line center until the end of his contract. If Matthews is signed to 10M (for the sake of ex.) and Nylander and Marner signed to Horvat/Ehlers money, our depth at F becomes championship calibre, our D then rests on a collection of a couple of #2 D (Gardiner at 4.5, Dermott at .863???), some number 4s in Zaitsev and Hainsey (and a 3/4 in Justin Braun in my if I were Lou scenario @ 3.8M until 2020), leaving enough salary to accommodate a big name on D like Doughty...bearing in mind, Liljegren, Holl, Borgman and Carrick easily supply depth throughout.

    As I see it, our desire for a player like Tavares misses all kinds of scenarios in which our depth can be augmented. And it's that wave after wave of talent that will separate us but to do that, we need to identify our players for what they and what they're not.


    P.S. Happy Birthday, Morgan Reilly.
     
  3. Nithoniniel

    Nithoniniel Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    15,253
    Likes Received:
    3,710
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Skövde, Sweden
    I think our TOI distribution can be boiled down to the following. We have a clear top four. Rielly-Hainsey has a matchup role, meaning they get on the ice in accordance to those matchups. That might mean that Babcock holds them back a shift if he thinks their target might come on the next shift. Gardiner-Zaitsev does not have such a role, so they get tossed out there without such considerations, which results in a bit more ice time per game.
     
    studebaker17 and 54thecup like this.
  4. LeafsNation75

    LeafsNation75 Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    18,025
    Likes Received:
    1,473
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    While that maybe true you still can't deny when Gardiner doesn't mess up he plays very well.
     
  5. 54thecup

    54thecup Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2017
    Messages:
    359
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Muskoka

    You know, this makes the most sense to me as any reason I can think that GZ get more mins than RH. I see growing minutes where Dermy slots with Morgan and others to fill a more dependable role. JUst like the forward lines are conditioned to change as the game situation changes.
     
  6. Reydin

    Reydin Registered User

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    46
    He is going to be our extra first round pick in 2019 and 2020
     
  7. Gallagbi

    Gallagbi Formerly Eazy_B97

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    34,130
    Likes Received:
    613
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Seems like the Gardiner pairing is starting to see more time against teams stars. It'll be interesting to see if that continues.
     
  8. JadedLeaf

    JadedLeaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    2,687
    Likes Received:
    720
    Trophy Points:
    155
    Location:
    Saskatchewan
    Could be any of the above, just depends on the game I suppose lol. On average, I wanna say he's a 2nd pairing guy. Maybe a #4
     
    hockeyes likes this.
  9. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens
    Jake is a one dimensional D-man and unfortunately he doesn’t get enough elite point totals to mask the horendous really bonehead give a ways that he produces every game and sometimes 2 and 3 on the same shift !!!
    It’s to bad , he’s a great guy and teammate but his stupid defensive blunders and super SOF play and lackadaisical approach in his end are mind numbing !
    Paul Coffee was never a great devensive player either but he put up 70 -80 and 90 and even 100 point seasons and cups cups cups
    Karlsson same without cups
    I’m not a fan of either one but ........
    Let’s get real
    Jake is Jake and he will never be anything other than what we see
    Need to trade him ASAP
    Sorry
    ruKus calls it as I sees it
    GO F€£¥en Leafs GO
     
    therealkoho likes this.
  10. Toronto makebeleifs

    Toronto makebeleifs Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2014
    Messages:
    905
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Jake is a frustrating player. Has the skill set to be a high end #3 or mid #2 but at times really lacks showing on ice iq out there. It is doubly frustrating seeing how well he played last year. If he could get back to last year's play at a consistent basis he's an excellent 2nd pair anchor, at this time though he's an adequate option while lacking other viable options.
     
  11. Kyle92

    Kyle92 Registered User Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    6,345
    Likes Received:
    224
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    Somewhere
    He's on the cusp of being a top 10 defensemen in Leafs history.

    He's 14th in games played and could be in the top 10 by the end of his contract. 12th in points and will be in top 8/9 by the end of next season if he stays healthy.

    He's the best defensemen on this team by a good margin when he's playing well. He is however, inconsistent.
     
    ITM likes this.
  12. DatSnipeMatthews

    DatSnipeMatthews Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    897
    Likes Received:
    586
    Trophy Points:
    61
    Location:
    Canada
    It's truly baffling that people on here go for subjective feelings vs objective reality.
    Fact A: Jake Gardiner has a ton of giveways. However, if you track who has the top giveaways for D-man, it's all awesome puck moving defensemen.
    Fact B: Jake Gardiner has terrific advanced stats, and has for years.
    Fact C: He's lead our D in points for the past two years.
    Fact D: He is excellent as the season goes on and especially in the playoffs.

    The only thing against Jake Gardiner is his giveaways. But folks don't seem to acknowledge that all the best D-men in the game have a lot of giveaways.
     
  13. Black and Blue

    Black and Blue Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    3,124
    Likes Received:
    385
    Trophy Points:
    94
    I don't care as long as we get breast mode Gardiner for the playoffs
     
    glue likes this.
  14. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens
    Really analyze his numbers and think about what you have seen watching him play !!!

    Really think objectively and without
    Bias as leafs fans as I am !

    The package , dollar amount , giveaways , play extending pressure in your own zone , etc
    Is he worth it ?
    Really ?


    Gms Gls Asst. Pts. +/-
    47541162203-13

    Good average numbers
    But still minus player and complete marshmallow phsically and mentally and really really dumb defensive giveaways

    I don’t think so
    Sorry
    RuKus calls it like I sees it !
    GO F€£¥in Leafs GO
     
    therealkoho likes this.
  15. MR4

    MR4 Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2014
    Messages:
    6,004
    Likes Received:
    1,775
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Looking like rukus is a prime candidate for the ignore list

    I do like how almost .5PPG through career is called average, while making a scene about -13 through ~500 games
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
    BillDerlago and Slyfox like this.
  16. Gallagbi

    Gallagbi Formerly Eazy_B97

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    34,130
    Likes Received:
    613
    Trophy Points:
    169
    I'm surprised his minus isn't worse given the Leafs teams he's played and how many minutes he logs.
     
  17. MR4

    MR4 Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2014
    Messages:
    6,004
    Likes Received:
    1,775
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Yep lol. With us being good in last 2 seasons, he's +30 and has a 45 point/season pace
     
  18. Drew311

    Drew311 Big Cactus

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2010
    Messages:
    9,489
    Likes Received:
    316
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    When is any heterosexual man not in breast mode?
     
  19. Larcos_Unal

    Larcos_Unal Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    2,127
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Location:
    Toronto
    Home Page:
    Typical Jake is just a dumbass with natural physical gifts that allow him to succeed. If he had brains for the game along with the natural talent he'd be a top 10 dman in the league.
     
    therealkoho and IamruKusleaf like this.
  20. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens
    What up brotha ?
    I respect your opinion !
    I will not argue some other stats that you can bring out , Corsi numbers and all other data other than the old way the tried and true way of just the basic stats plus gut feeling plus experience of watching many players for 50+ years and general knowledge of the game and just knowledge and discussions of many other friends and hard core hockey people and expert opinions and all the experience in this forum and other forums and media of all kinds and other players thoughts who have played the game and last but not least good old fashioned “ watching his game over his career and last year and this year !
    Again
    Good guy , good player, ok soldier
    Great skater , pretty good offensive IQ and ok all around player .
    But c’mon really look at his entire body of work and even tonight look at his defensive play and overall game and really look into this and think , really think through objective glasses as you would look at him if he played for the Sens , Canadiens or any other team .
    Look at his numbers overall and think about all his blunders and bad mistakes and poor decisions , even in tonight’s game ?
    Try to think about some great 1 st , 2nd and 3rd D -men around and especially in the recent past that were offensive defensman that weren’t exceptional defensively as well

    1st tier Examples :
    : straight up great D-Men both offensively and defensively and leaders

    Orr ( obvious )

    Then

    Potvin
    Bourque
    Salming
    Doughty
    Harvey
    Pronger
    On and on
    And others I’m sure you can fill in here

    2nd tier Examples:
    : great offensively but not defensively
    Coffey
    Park
    Savard
    Karlsson
    Housley
    Leetch
    On and on
    And more you can fill in here

    Then some others on a list mix and match type
    Many others you can fill in here of top notch D-Men you can think of and others here
    PK
    Etc
    Etc
    Y’all can fill this section with a multuide of recent defencemen


    Now pull it all together all your numbers and my numbers and facts and again just old fashioned watching him play !!!


    Do you really think he matches up to these guys over all points wise Leadership wise Savvy wise physicaly wise intelligent, awerness amazing points hiding some defensive dumb play and more ??

    Maybe you might think it ??
    But I certainly don’t
    I’m saying we could and should really try to upgrade in his spot as when I look at it with all those above filters and facts and experience and more , not even close
    He’s a 5-6 defender in his zone and a 3/4 offensive producer in his career
    And a 2 offensive “flair “ defensively defensman

    Sorry
    RuKus calls it like I sees it !
    GO F€£¥in Leafs GO
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  21. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens
    Hey Blue and White amigos all over the worlddd

    Let’s all grow with this great in progress core of awesome young players team we have as fans as well

    Let’s expect more from our owners management coaching minors scouts prospects and players and more

    Let’s escape from the bad teams syndrome and hoping to win backing and statue erecting quick judgments to also ran players and over exuberant scouting of our ok players and grow up as winning fans from now on and be fans of great teams that compete at high levels year in and year out that are perennial threats to win the cup

    Let’s shoot for elite great great superstar or star players not just mediocre offensive minded average point getter players and be proud of greTness from now on with an attitude of winning

    GOooooo F€£¥in Leafs Goooo
     
  22. Nithoniniel

    Nithoniniel Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    15,253
    Likes Received:
    3,710
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Skövde, Sweden
    It's quite amazing that you make a list of some of the best defenders in NHL history, ask if Gardiner measures up to them, and take the obvious no as meaning that he's not a good d-man.

    "Is Kadri as good as Gretzky or Lemieux? Or even Sundin, Tavares or Keon? No? Fourth liner it is!"
     
    ITM and Gallagbi like this.
  23. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens

    Cheers bro !
    Allllllll good
    I knew that my honest opinions would stir up some of u dudes !
    I get it ,
    If you read further down I definitely stated those greats for sure but I also laid done some midrange stars and ever average star defensman as well and also stated that you can add any player you might love ok at

    All I’m saying amigos is that do you think overall with all you know and witness and compare old time and recent hockey D-Men ,
    Do u really think Jakester is with any of them overall ?
    Would u start a team with him ?

    I like him a lot 2 years ago and even last year but moving forward I think we need to examine all of our players and try to be honest with winners on our team
    Cheers chupa Cabre
    Alllll good

    Goooo F€£¥ in Leafs GOooo
     
  24. Nithoniniel

    Nithoniniel Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    15,253
    Likes Received:
    3,710
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Skövde, Sweden
    And you are still comparing him to stars while arguing whether he is good or not. That's the problem.

    No. I do not think he is. I also don't think he needs to be.

    Fairly certain he is already on a team, so even if I wanted to start a team with him, I don't think he'd agree. I'm persuasive, but not that persuasive.
     
    ITM likes this.
  25. IamruKusleaf

    IamruKusleaf Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    23
    Occupation:
    CEO
    Location:
    Maple Leaf Gardens
    Brah ha ha ha
    Good one Bro
    Got me
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"