Discussion in 'Toronto Maple Leafs' started by DatSnipeMatthews, Mar 1, 2018.
Ah thought you were talking about Gardiner
Well, notice in the hypothetical scenario (if I were Lou), I'm moving Reilly for Horvat. So we seem to agree at the very least that there's a perception that Reilly is, or could be, a number one defenceman given my desired return (i.e. Bo Horvat). Contextually, I'm not so certain that Reilly's a true, game-changing, impact franchise D in the way Drew Doughty's been. I also wouldn't shift MR's objective value (whether real or perceived real #1D) for the sake of a hypothetical model/preference against Reilly. He's a good young defenceman. Maybe he turns out to be an objectively number one, impact D, but Reilly's potential and Gardiner's present actuality are inverse in most polls, opinions I've come across.
OT somewhat for a moment...For those saying Tavares is the player to target if he's available, it causes me to recall Cherry's oft-proven maxim that number one guys want to be number one guys and their success seems to wax and wane depending upon actual and perceived status within their club. We bring Tavares in (versus say a lower profile Horvat) and I wonder what that does to the development of Auston Matthews, whose all but been named our imminent captain. Picture it, in walks Tavares, a 27 year old NHL captain, born in Toronto, likely signed for "Matthews money", and that doesn't have a somewhat disconcerting effect on AM34 going forward?
Conversely, moving in a Drew Doughty or an Erik Karlsson is the kind of move we should desire (provided we have the means) given their much rarer position as true number one defenceman. Morgan Reilly isn't (in kind) a number one D in the mold of the examples mentioned. This to say, were we to move out Reilly, our depth at position of players like him (i.e. Jake Gardiner) or emerging like him (i.e. Travis Dermott, Timothy Liljegren) isn't truly comprised.
Now say, for example, that we acquired Bo Horvat for Morgan Reilly. The effect is, Nazem Kadri (at 27 and at 4.5M) becomes our third line center until the end of his contract. Bo Horvat (at 22 and at 5.5M) becomes our second line center until the end of his contract. If Matthews is signed to 10M (for the sake of ex.) and Nylander and Marner signed to Horvat/Ehlers money, our depth at F becomes championship calibre, our D then rests on a collection of a couple of #2 D (Gardiner at 4.5, Dermott at .863???), some number 4s in Zaitsev and Hainsey (and a 3/4 in Justin Braun in my if I were Lou scenario @ 3.8M until 2020), leaving enough salary to accommodate a big name on D like Doughty...bearing in mind, Liljegren, Holl, Borgman and Carrick easily supply depth throughout.
As I see it, our desire for a player like Tavares misses all kinds of scenarios in which our depth can be augmented. And it's that wave after wave of talent that will separate us but to do that, we need to identify our players for what they and what they're not.
P.S. Happy Birthday, Morgan Reilly.
I think our TOI distribution can be boiled down to the following. We have a clear top four. Rielly-Hainsey has a matchup role, meaning they get on the ice in accordance to those matchups. That might mean that Babcock holds them back a shift if he thinks their target might come on the next shift. Gardiner-Zaitsev does not have such a role, so they get tossed out there without such considerations, which results in a bit more ice time per game.
While that maybe true you still can't deny when Gardiner doesn't mess up he plays very well.
You know, this makes the most sense to me as any reason I can think that GZ get more mins than RH. I see growing minutes where Dermy slots with Morgan and others to fill a more dependable role. JUst like the forward lines are conditioned to change as the game situation changes.
He is going to be our extra first round pick in 2019 and 2020
Seems like the Gardiner pairing is starting to see more time against teams stars. It'll be interesting to see if that continues.
Could be any of the above, just depends on the game I suppose lol. On average, I wanna say he's a 2nd pairing guy. Maybe a #4
Jake is a one dimensional D-man and unfortunately he doesn’t get enough elite point totals to mask the horendous really bonehead give a ways that he produces every game and sometimes 2 and 3 on the same shift !!!
It’s to bad , he’s a great guy and teammate but his stupid defensive blunders and super SOF play and lackadaisical approach in his end are mind numbing !
Paul Coffee was never a great devensive player either but he put up 70 -80 and 90 and even 100 point seasons and cups cups cups
Karlsson same without cups
I’m not a fan of either one but ........
Let’s get real
Jake is Jake and he will never be anything other than what we see
Need to trade him ASAP
ruKus calls it as I sees it
GO F€£¥en Leafs GO
Jake is a frustrating player. Has the skill set to be a high end #3 or mid #2 but at times really lacks showing on ice iq out there. It is doubly frustrating seeing how well he played last year. If he could get back to last year's play at a consistent basis he's an excellent 2nd pair anchor, at this time though he's an adequate option while lacking other viable options.
He's on the cusp of being a top 10 defensemen in Leafs history.
He's 14th in games played and could be in the top 10 by the end of his contract. 12th in points and will be in top 8/9 by the end of next season if he stays healthy.
He's the best defensemen on this team by a good margin when he's playing well. He is however, inconsistent.
It's truly baffling that people on here go for subjective feelings vs objective reality.
Fact A: Jake Gardiner has a ton of giveways. However, if you track who has the top giveaways for D-man, it's all awesome puck moving defensemen.
Fact B: Jake Gardiner has terrific advanced stats, and has for years.
Fact C: He's lead our D in points for the past two years.
Fact D: He is excellent as the season goes on and especially in the playoffs.
The only thing against Jake Gardiner is his giveaways. But folks don't seem to acknowledge that all the best D-men in the game have a lot of giveaways.
I don't care as long as we get breast mode Gardiner for the playoffs
Really analyze his numbers and think about what you have seen watching him play !!!
Really think objectively and without
Bias as leafs fans as I am !
The package , dollar amount , giveaways , play extending pressure in your own zone , etc
Is he worth it ?
Gms Gls Asst. Pts. +/-
Good average numbers
But still minus player and complete marshmallow phsically and mentally and really really dumb defensive giveaways
I don’t think so
RuKus calls it like I sees it !
GO F€£¥in Leafs GO
Looking like rukus is a prime candidate for the ignore list
I do like how almost .5PPG through career is called average, while making a scene about -13 through ~500 games
I'm surprised his minus isn't worse given the Leafs teams he's played and how many minutes he logs.
Yep lol. With us being good in last 2 seasons, he's +30 and has a 45 point/season pace
When is any heterosexual man not in breast mode?
Typical Jake is just a dumbass with natural physical gifts that allow him to succeed. If he had brains for the game along with the natural talent he'd be a top 10 dman in the league.
What up brotha ?
I respect your opinion !
I will not argue some other stats that you can bring out , Corsi numbers and all other data other than the old way the tried and true way of just the basic stats plus gut feeling plus experience of watching many players for 50+ years and general knowledge of the game and just knowledge and discussions of many other friends and hard core hockey people and expert opinions and all the experience in this forum and other forums and media of all kinds and other players thoughts who have played the game and last but not least good old fashioned “ watching his game over his career and last year and this year !
Good guy , good player, ok soldier
Great skater , pretty good offensive IQ and ok all around player .
But c’mon really look at his entire body of work and even tonight look at his defensive play and overall game and really look into this and think , really think through objective glasses as you would look at him if he played for the Sens , Canadiens or any other team .
Look at his numbers overall and think about all his blunders and bad mistakes and poor decisions , even in tonight’s game ?
Try to think about some great 1 st , 2nd and 3rd D -men around and especially in the recent past that were offensive defensman that weren’t exceptional defensively as well
1st tier Examples :
: straight up great D-Men both offensively and defensively and leaders
Orr ( obvious )
On and on
And others I’m sure you can fill in here
2nd tier Examples:
: great offensively but not defensively
On and on
And more you can fill in here
Then some others on a list mix and match type
Many others you can fill in here of top notch D-Men you can think of and others here
Y’all can fill this section with a multuide of recent defencemen
Now pull it all together all your numbers and my numbers and facts and again just old fashioned watching him play !!!
Do you really think he matches up to these guys over all points wise Leadership wise Savvy wise physicaly wise intelligent, awerness amazing points hiding some defensive dumb play and more ??
Maybe you might think it ??
But I certainly don’t
I’m saying we could and should really try to upgrade in his spot as when I look at it with all those above filters and facts and experience and more , not even close
He’s a 5-6 defender in his zone and a 3/4 offensive producer in his career
And a 2 offensive “flair “ defensively defensman
RuKus calls it like I sees it !
GO F€£¥in Leafs GO
Hey Blue and White amigos all over the worlddd
Let’s all grow with this great in progress core of awesome young players team we have as fans as well
Let’s expect more from our owners management coaching minors scouts prospects and players and more
Let’s escape from the bad teams syndrome and hoping to win backing and statue erecting quick judgments to also ran players and over exuberant scouting of our ok players and grow up as winning fans from now on and be fans of great teams that compete at high levels year in and year out that are perennial threats to win the cup
Let’s shoot for elite great great superstar or star players not just mediocre offensive minded average point getter players and be proud of greTness from now on with an attitude of winning
GOooooo F€£¥in Leafs Goooo
It's quite amazing that you make a list of some of the best defenders in NHL history, ask if Gardiner measures up to them, and take the obvious no as meaning that he's not a good d-man.
"Is Kadri as good as Gretzky or Lemieux? Or even Sundin, Tavares or Keon? No? Fourth liner it is!"
Cheers bro !
I knew that my honest opinions would stir up some of u dudes !
I get it ,
If you read further down I definitely stated those greats for sure but I also laid done some midrange stars and ever average star defensman as well and also stated that you can add any player you might love ok at
All I’m saying amigos is that do you think overall with all you know and witness and compare old time and recent hockey D-Men ,
Do u really think Jakester is with any of them overall ?
Would u start a team with him ?
I like him a lot 2 years ago and even last year but moving forward I think we need to examine all of our players and try to be honest with winners on our team
Cheers chupa Cabre
Goooo F€£¥ in Leafs GOooo
And you are still comparing him to stars while arguing whether he is good or not. That's the problem.
No. I do not think he is. I also don't think he needs to be.
Fairly certain he is already on a team, so even if I wanted to start a team with him, I don't think he'd agree. I'm persuasive, but not that persuasive.
Brah ha ha ha
Good one Bro