What is AA Trade Value

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by NEWing, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. Ezekial

    Ezekial Fil the Thrill

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    He's a young nhler with upside, he has some value.

    What exactly it is, Idk. I think him and one of our low seconds could move us into the teens, but what do I know? Certainly don't think he gets us there on his own, though.
     
  2. Voodoo Glow Skulls

    Voodoo Glow Skulls Formerly Vatican Roulette Sponsor

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    Haydn Fleury
    Julius Honka

    ?

    Maybe a good D prospect instead?
     
  3. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he eligible for arbitration? So if they can't come to an agreement, would he not just file and get a 1 year deal?
     
  4. tsweeney

    tsweeney Registered User

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    Yeah, the Wings aren't a sad sack organization. They're a fantastic organization that ran out of steam after a 20 year sustained run as being the preeminent team in hockey and finally puttered out of talent in year 25.

    But you know what would make the Wings a sad sack organization? Throwing away the values that they built that sustained success on for a player who's good but not great. For a player who's flashy but not a star. Sad sack organizations, like the Cleveland Browns or Detroit Lions in the NFL, do things like kowtow to whoever happens to be the best player on their team right now, when said player is just the best of a very bad bunch.
     
  5. KJoe88

    KJoe88 Registered User

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    His role, huh?

    Tell me, what has he done to prove himself besides acting like a little child and holding out for a miniscule amount of money?

    Just because he has the occasional dangle around a d-man and scores, doesn’t give him the right to some large amount of money and more ice time.
     
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  6. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    I think that people who think that low of the Wings are likely not fans of other teams in other sports. Being a Lions fans, I see what a bad management team/ownership team can do to your franchise. Those are teams that "sad sack of an organization" would apply to.

    Clearly the Wings have made bad moves over the past decade, there is no denying that, but when the worst things that they have done is trade Jarnkrok, and sign Abby, Helm, Nielsen to long term contracts, it shows how well this team has been run over the past 30 years as a whole.

    I'm sure this post will elicit me being called a Holland slappy, but I'm not going to let frustration over the past few years cloud my judgement. We are a team that was run better then any team in the NHL for around 20 years who held on too long in order to preserve the streak by trying to re-build on the fly for the second time. No doubt a mistake, moves like Abby, Helm, Nielsen etc were 100% mistakes, whether the idea of this came from Holland, Illitch, JD, I really don't care, it was a mistake. But, compared to teams like the Lions, Brown, Sabres, Yotes etc. its not even close.

    I guess I look at what this team did from when I was a kid (late 80's/early 90's) to 2012 and see all the good, then I look at what they did from 2013 to 2017 and see the bad, and I don't let the latter effect the former. I see no reason why this team can't change things around without "cleaning house".

    Time will tell.

    I just hope fans are more interested in us turning things around then they are at "being right" because that is just disappointing.
     
  7. TheMule93

    TheMule93 On a mule rides the swindler

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  8. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Time has told.
    This team hasn't been beyond round 2 since 2009. Hasn't been beyond round one since 2013.
    And now our non-playoff streak has just reached 2 straight years.

    And finally, the morons running the show are admitting it's rebuild time.

    Ken Holland asked the other day, "What's the difference if the rebuild started sooner or later?"
    That question tells you all you need to know about Holland and his ability to see the big picture.

    The difference, obviously, is that all those years spent not winning and not rebuilding were an utter waste of time.
    If the rebuild on the fly starts in 2010 or 2011 (no trading young assets or draft picks), what was the worse that would have happened? Maybe we suck earlier? Maybe?
    Maybe we don't make the playoffs the Legwand year. Maybe.
    What happens if that happens?

    On the other hand, where are we today if we don't waste all those young assets? If we don't trade away the first for Quincey. The second rounders. The third rounder. Jarnkrok. Janmark.
    If we don't trade away the first rounder to trade away Datsyuk's contract? If we don't sign bad deals for Nielsen, Daley, Abdelakder and Helm.

    My guess is that we'd still hit this post-Datsyuk hole. But that we'd have been better off in the long run. And that our turn around time would start right about now,

    Instead, we're on year 2 and most likely, this is going to be 3-4 years before we get better.
     
  9. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    OK, what's your point? I said that the re-build on the was a mistake. When I said "time will tell" I'm referring to the actual re-build that is happening right now. Maybe Holland bombs it, maybe things turn quickly, again, only time will tell.
     
  10. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    I've said it 15 times at least.

    When he plays big minutes, he plays well. He's earned his icetime.

    I'm not absolving AA for the way he plays when he gets pissed on by his ****head coach.

    But the data is there. When AA played big minutes - he produced. More than a point-per-game.

    And no, that wasn't Blashill seeing AA working hard and playing him a lot.
    It was out of the blue or a random injury that caused AA to get promoted.
    And then, despite playing very well, he gets bounced.
     
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  11. tsweeney

    tsweeney Registered User

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    We’d have Chychrun instead of Cholowski.
    We would have two more bottom six forwards and the picks are just as likely, if not more likely, to be Tomas Jurco or Xavier Ouellet than Shea Weber or Ryan O’Reilly.

    1st for Quincey happened when we were literally in the Presidents Trophy spot at the TDL.

    And also, it’s pretty amazing. “We’d still be in a crap position but it would totally be better. Somehow.”
     
  12. Oddbob

    Oddbob Registered User

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    Honestly if we could pick up a 19-22 defenceman with upside who maybe has fallen off expectations, but still has a decent looking future I would go for that.

    This was a show me year for AA, with the debacle last summer and 1 year deal. He had a good 15 game stretch mid-season where it looked like he was turning the corner, but then floated through so many games with little effort in both ends of the rink. His lackadaisical attitude is annoying and not worth the 2-5 Highlight Reel goals he scores a year. The guy has Connor McDavid level speed and better than decent hands with the puck, he should be a guaranteed 30 goal guy, just on that alone, even if he only played 15-16 minutes a night, but when you put in a pathetic level of effort 80% of the time, you get what we had, a 16 goal guy who has a brutal +/- to boot. He had basically 2 more minutes on average per game this year, and put up fewer pts than last year.
     
  13. Oddbob

    Oddbob Registered User

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    He played more minutes (almost 2 minutes per game), more games, had fewer pts and same level of poor defence. Not everything is the coaches fault, sometimes a player has to put on his big boy pants and go to work, which AA doesn't. Having a good game here and there is not good enough and he looks disinterested out there for most of the season.
     
  14. Fil Larkmanthanasiou

    Fil Larkmanthanasiou Registered User

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    He scored more points this year.
     
  15. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    You can argue that Janmark & Jarnkrok are third liners, but they are clearly better than fourth liners. They should be held up as drafting successes and the sort of thing we need to continue to do so we can supplement our high picks with quality support.
     
  16. Hen Kolland

    Hen Kolland Registered User

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    How is AA any different than Tatar, Nyquist, etc? When he plays on the top lines, he gets to play with players that carry their linemates, regardless of who they are; when he plays on the bottom lines, he is playing with less talent and his production dries up. This looks like less of a minutes issue and more an issue of AA can't consistently perform when he has to be the go to guy for offense...at least from my perspective.
     
  17. tsweeney

    tsweeney Registered User

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    Yeah, that was a little unfair, but I was saying we wouldn't all of a sudden have some huge huge influx of elite talent even if we held onto all of those players and picks.

    And hell, if we keep one or both of Janmark and Jarnkrok, I wonder what that does to AA's playing time. Because they would have been in front of him in line for coming up to play. Or would be directly competition for the minutes.

    Janmark and Jarnkrok were certainly good picks as reliable NHLers and I did not mean to deride them... but you know if they were here the narrative would completely change. It would be "our team is cluttered with good, but not great players." They'd be viewed simply as assets to be sold to get more mid round picks. Like "We can trade Jarnkrok (2nd round pick) to maybe get another 2nd round pick.

    Bleating on about trading away mid round picks and guys of the Janmark/Jarnkrok cloth is missing the point. We need elite talent.

    Now, when I say that... I'm not subscribing to "lose, lose, lose" so you can have a 10% higher total chance at getting a guy. I think you try to build a stable team with a consistent message to just run into one of those talents as opposed to forcing the issue for up to 10%.
     
  18. ShelbyZ

    ShelbyZ Registered User

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    I wouldn't be surprised if AA's impending RFA status and notoriously awful agent actually drop his value.

    Tobias Rieder, another Ferris client, similarly failed to deliver during the duration of the contract he held out for and recently got traded before he becomes an RFA again this summer. Combined with a (throw in?) 3rd string goalie that was immediately waived, Rieder fetched a back up goalie in Darcy Kuemper.

    In fairness, AA is a little over 1.5 years younger and may still have more upside than Rieder, but that's probably a pretty good comparable given those factors. What would Kuemper have been worth in a trade for a pick or prospect?

    At this point, I'd rather AA just stick around and either improve or really show that he's nothing more than an inconsistent middle 6 winger capable of around .5 PPG in a season. Otherwise, it's going to get real annoying constantly being reminded in here of what a blunder Holland made every time AA scores some highlight reel goal playing for another team... Kind of like how it was with Mrazek for about a week and a half after he got traded... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  19. Winger98

    Winger98 powers combined

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    I think the idea is that if we had hung onto one or both of them that then maybe Holland doesn't have all of Helm/Gator/Nielsen. We'd have a younger, cheaper team with (ideally) more assets from dealing Helm/Gator at the TDL. Hindsight being 20/20, I'm not sure the actual quality of the team is different the past few years. Kinda sucks for us, but it's how it played out.

    I wasn't happy with Jarnkrok being dealt, warmed to Janmark when Cole came in and just looked great. The more I've thought about it what bothers me is the mindset. Holland had been talking about rebuilding on the fly, but for that to really work I think you have to go out and accumulate picks to up your opportunities while picking late. That means dealing guys like Gator and Helm, while hanging onto the Jarnkroks and Janmarks. The club might slip and miss the playoffs because you are definitely sacrificing the dependability of the vets for the affordability and possibilities of the kids, but it's a necessary evil if that's your plan, ya know?

    I don't know how folks would react to a team of the young guys or how much they'd just want to deal them. I think we'd maybe have a more interesting team, and one where deals are more feasible just because the contracts would probably be easier to move around. Right now, I'm just hoping we see Holland follow through on what he talked about during his presser, and that he can pull it off. I wish he had this sort of presser two years ago, but oh well.
     
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  20. DetroitRed

    DetroitRed Crashes the Crease

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    Usually, you have to produce with small minutes before you can earn big minutes, and playing with the likes of Larkin at your side for a big part of the year, if you don't produce a lot, then I don't know how valuable the excuse is that you can only produce enough if given more minutes. Pretty much anyone's production goes up with big minutes. So, Athansiou is kind of a strange commodity if that's the position he's taking, plus Detroit's second line was more talented than its first in terms of offense. Granted, talking about lines is a bit awkward with Blashill as coach, but they stuck him right next to Dylan Larkin (!!) fresh out of his contract circus. It was all there for the taking for Andre.

    Andre's speed is impressive, but speed shouldn't be such a situational advantage that you have to wait for just the right moment for it to pay off. So actually, I think the better path is to get Andre to use his speed better, with hopes of making him more economical in terms of production, rather than to just give him big minutes. It bothers me that he isn't focused on that rather than just expecting more ice time, especially at his age and experience level.

    Thy had a rookie (Frk) who wasn't even likely to make the team come aboard and produce at about the same clip as Andre on that same line, with not much more than a slap shot as a tool. So, I'm not moved by Andre's sob story.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
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  21. Rzombo4 prez

    Rzombo4 prez Registered User

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    I was probably thinking something closer to the prospect end of the spectrum (and a pick) but I wouldn't mind someone like Fleury. I don't think Honka compliments our organization very well. AA should have value but he comes at a clear discount to his size, skill and production. NHL teams value predictability and consistency far more than we do and those aren't his strengths.
     
  22. Ulysses31

    Ulysses31 Registered User

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    I think hed fit well on a California team. Teams that are already playoff caliber , strong defensively and need more scoring.
     

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