What if Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford never moved

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by cape islander, Dec 28, 2005.

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  1. cape islander

    cape islander Registered User

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    Just assume that these 3 teams never moved and no other NHL team moved would Phoenix, Colorado, or Carolina have NHL teams right now? if so which expansion teams would they have taken?
    out of Colorado, phoenix, carolina, nashville, columbus, minnesota, and atlanta which of these 4 would have gotten expansion teams?
     
  2. AdmiralPred

    AdmiralPred Registered User

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    What if Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford never moved?

    We wouldn't have expansion/relocation threads.








    (Sorry, I had to post it.)
     
  3. Squiddy*

    Squiddy* Registered User

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    What if the NHL didn't let these WHA teams into the league?
     
  4. AdmiralPred

    AdmiralPred Registered User

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    What if there wasn't any hockey? Would we still have a polo-type sport played on ice with sticks and a black rubber disc?
     
  5. ColoradoSportsFan

    ColoradoSportsFan Registered User

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    I'm thinkin that Colorado, Minnesota, Atlanta and Phoenix would have been the Four Expansion Clubs. Essentially Colorado taking Nashvilles spot and Phoenix taking Columbus' spot.
     
  6. Squiddy*

    Squiddy* Registered User

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    Might have just been figure skating? :dunno:
     
  7. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    Colorado, Columbus, Atlanta and Minnesota
     
  8. Gnashville

    Gnashville HFBoards Hall of Famer

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    Canada would be a happier place right now.
    Bettman would not be loathed more than Satan in Canada.
    2 more teams would be bankrupt.
    The Canadian media would not be gripping every time some "unacceptable" team drew 12K to a game.
    Attendance numbers wouldn't be posted in every thread on this messageboard.
    Denver, Phoenix, Minnesota, and Atlanta or Nashville would have expansion teams.
    Contraction would be a dead issue.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  9. RangerBoy

    RangerBoy TRUST THE PROCESS

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    I wish the NHL was a 21 team league like it used to be :)
     
  10. joepeps

    joepeps Registered User

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    The NHL would be making more money.... The lockout wouldn't have happend...
    and instead of 2 Billion rev.. it would alot more...

    not to meantion this touch a guy penalty rule thats around, wouldn't be here

    :teach:
     
  11. Gnashville

    Gnashville HFBoards Hall of Famer

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    :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
     
  12. Squiddy*

    Squiddy* Registered User

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    Doubt it... How can you gain more revenues with less teams? They sure weren't making more money when the league was 21 teams. Face it the lock out was going to happen because the CBA was horribly in favour for the players in 95. A year later people were predicting a lockout when it went up, but bettman extended it because he got money from expansion fees and eventually you know the rest.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2005
  13. AdmiralPred

    AdmiralPred Registered User

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    50k-60k capacity arenas... outdoor novelty games each week... and free b**w j**s for the first 30k through the gate. :sarcasm:
     
  14. Troy McClure

    Troy McClure BPA is a lie

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    Then you'd see many of the big European stars staying there because a 21 team NHL couldn't pay as much to as many players.
     
  15. Squiddy*

    Squiddy* Registered User

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    Don't argue .. it's a small market canadian thing.
     
  16. Majik1987

    Majik1987 I know kung fu...

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    I don't think you could include the three aforementioned teams without also taking the move of the Minnesota North Stars off the board, too. As a result, Minnesota doesn't need an expansion team because they already had a team.

    Regarding expansion, I think that Dallas and Denver both get teams. I then think that Phoenix and Atlanta get clubs. Nashville, Columbus, and Carolina would be shut out.

    I also believe that if the teams cannot relocate, then at least one of these three named franchises goes bankrupt or sells their franchise back to the league, who then places the team in one of the three shut out locations. Player salaries went spiraling in the late 90's, and so these clubs were sold or moved to more profitable locations. Without the ability to move, the teams would eventually collapse.
     
  17. jamiebez

    jamiebez Registered User

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    Assuming Minnesota stayed put, I'd go with Dallas, Colorado, Phoenix and Atlanta, with Columbus on the "taxi squad"
     
  18. CHRDANHUTCH

    CHRDANHUTCH Registered User

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    you'd also have to rescind the following franchise/league shifts had these moves not happened including Norm Green's move to Dallas even though the Stars were sold since.

    1) Would Glens Falls be in the AHL rather than the UHL WITH Melrose and Levy as owners and Detroit still being the affiliate and would Adirondack benefit Albany as that rivalry would most likely have continued.

    2) Binghamton would still have the Rangers instead of the Senators activating their dormant franchise ----see example # 1

    3) Would the IHL still be around?????? which would take out those 5 franchises and would Utah not have dropped a league to the ECHL?

    The Moose would still be in Minnesota if the above were true.

    Would Lexington, Louisville,& or San Antonio still be in existence in the above example---would the AHL be in Cleveland and had Florida not terminated or placed what became the Rampage in SA instead of the Iguanas which were forced whether they wanted to dissolve or not had Detroit sold their affiliate to Florida in the first place....

    on the Building front would MTS Centre or Glendale Arena in Winnipeg or Phoenix be still a dream instead of Winnipeg Arena or AWA still being used for hockey????
     
  19. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    And it needed to be said.
     
  20. Hasbro

    Hasbro Can He Skate?! Sponsor

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    When Colorado got the Nords they were effectively next in line for the next team to shake out, they had plans for building the Pepsi Center already in the works and the naming rights was where alot of the purchase came from. The ownership Comsat had a close relationship with Bettman from his NBA days and had already lined them up for Hartford before Karmanos came in. The deal with the bid on the Nordiques was in exchange for helping Aubut leverage Quebec into giving him a new arena he'd back us on expansion team, when that didn't work he took our bid.

    Next up at that point was Nashville.
     
  21. AdmiralPred

    AdmiralPred Registered User

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    the original poster only went back to the Quebec move to Colorado. Why should the North Stars move to Dallas be included in his list of teams as moves that never happened?

    I guess you'll need to be more specific making your connections from these AHL/ECHL/UHL franchises to the three NHL teams that are presumed to not have moved. I'm not sure I follow.


    Perhaps, but in the original poster's scenario the North Stars have moved to Dallas. Everyone here thinks that Minny would then be granted one of the proposed expansion teams, as in reality, so I think that the Moose do move.


    A few connections that I am not quite making, you'll need to explain yourself more. As for Louisville, AHL hockey was dead before it had a chance to grow in that community. Terrible ownership, terrible parent club support, but played in a fairly decent arena with comfortable seats and very, very few fans (so I didn't have to worry about someone sitting in front of me and blocking my view of the ice since the lower teir seats were laid out seemingly flat). The concessions weren't even open. Lexington was a bit different, I think the arena was closer to campus, or more easily accessable, and the college students got into it more than they did in Louisville. Bit better of a hockey following there.

    Would Glendale arena be needed if the Yotes weren't in town?
     
  22. CHRDANHUTCH

    CHRDANHUTCH Registered User

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    Minnesota's move predates the Quebec transfer Admiral, as I recall, Stars fans in the Twin Cities despised Norm Green for taking the Minnesota franchise south to begin with, as the Met Center also was imploded to make room for the Mall of America, why do u think the Twins and Vikings ENDED UP IN a Dome.

    as for the Nordiques move to Colorado, didn't the late John McMullen take his team to New Jersey 13 years before that and before Colorado got the Nordiques----which is well documented here-----the Colisee survived because the Remparts are the draw in Quebec, and the Canadiens attempted to put their prospects in Quebec but the fans in Quebec didn't show up to see the Citadelles and preferred the Q franchise and that's been documented also, just ask another AHL Fan THAT WAS IN Quebec AND HE himself preferred the junior team to the pro team.

    That's one reason why the QMJHL has filled the markets the AHL had established in Atlantic Canada.

    Put it this way:

    Would the AHL have gone into Hartford and Quebec had the Whalers and Nordiques not been relocated, the AHL had no need to look @ Colorado at that point---is it the AHL's fault the franchise in Quebec is now in Hamilton, Admiral, hmmmm?

    Another question u missed in my original post was would the 6 franchises who were implemented in 2001, still be in the IHL and would that league exist as it did up to that point???????

    Louisville was not the experiment because Florida was so disgusted with the ownership they basically turned the team over to the AHL, and Florida had to coax Detroit out of their dormant franchise, that eventually the Spurs were sick of them and caused the upheaval that clouded the Rampage transfer to Phoenix.

    Adirondack would most likely still be in the AHL instead of being transformed into the Rampage,Admiral, instead the Frostbite now call Glens Falls home, again if u had ever been to Glens Falls, u would know that---and I doubt Albany would be in the position it is, which may/may not be transferred.

    Binghamton would still have the Rangers, and the Rangers wouldn't have made the decision to bolt for Hartford while Binghamton scrambled in the same league w/ Adirondack until 2001 WHEN the Senators left Grand Rapids.

    Lexington was sold (bought by the parent team) and it was a coincidence that Cleveland was a market vacated by the decision made by said League that was expanded and would Worcester been bought and transferred had the IHL stayed active??????

    How does the Moose move if the Stars had remained in Minnesota, and the Jets stayed in Winnipeg, there's no certainty that the Moose would be a franchise,but would there be franchises named Wild or Coyotes or would XCEL Center or Glendale and/or AWA be a pipe dream, hence the title of this thread "What If".

    The Moose were formed to soften the blow of the Stars relocation to Dallas and it did that until the Wild were granted a franchise which Bettman rectified the decision made by Norm Green to move the Stars to Dallas.

    in the Jets case it benefitted the Moose to fill a void in Winnipeg because of a displaced fanbase that had no choice but to do Winnipeg fans actually hate the Coyotes the way North Star fans were vocal about their franchise leaving,imho.

    Winnipeg fans should be grateful that they have a team to support because that city would in worse economic shape had there not be a hockey franchise in Winnipeg and would MTS Centre been built if not for the Moose showing because what is there to do in Manitoba this time of year??????
     


  23. Also, keep in mind the Quebec Citadelles were Montreal's affiliate. Die-hard Quebec City hockey fans will never, ever, EVER cheer for anything Hab related.
     
  24. AdmiralPred

    AdmiralPred Registered User

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    Well, that is what I was getting at. The Minnesota move pre-dates the Quebec move. I was being picky and pointing out the fact that the original poster didn’t include Minnesota in his/her list of “What if†teams. You had mentioned that we’d have to rescind the Minnesota move as well. I also am not wondering why the Twins and the Vikings ended up in a dome, the HHH Dome was built back in the early 80’s. I am wondering why your asking though.

    That’s fine, and I won’t dispute you there, but you haven’t brought up the Citadelles in this thread yet. I don’t imagine that Quebec fans would want to cheer for Montreal prospects.


    Probably not. What if Quebec and Hartford never moved? I agree, the AHL would have probably found a different market.

    I didn’t miss it. I just never responded because I didn’t really have a take. However, the IHL probably would have folded regardless of the ensuing chain of events had Hartford, Quebec, and Winnipeg not moved.

    I just was looking for more clarification on the subject. I did not know there was a connection between Adirondack and San Antonio. This is why I had asked you to clarify, I knew that you had the background on this. ;)

    *cut as I understand the Binghampton-Rangers-Ottawa-Grand Rapids connection.

    This thread isn’t about the IHL staying active or about the Minnesota North Stars moving, these are just points that you are throwing out there. I don’t think that the Moose would be in Minnesota or Manitoba had the North Stars and the Jets stayed in their respective markets.

    The “What if†of this thread is about NHL Winnipeg, Hartford, and Quebec staying put. Now, I know that you have this great bank of knowledge on the history of hockey ownership, this is why I have asked for some clarification on what you had originally posted. Just slow down, lay one thought out at a time and run with it. Thank you for clearing up some of your points though.

    *Last part cut. If the Jets remained in Winnipeg, the Moose would probably not be there today, so the point is moot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2005
  25. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    The NHL would grant a franchise to any city willing to pay the expansion fee, so there`d be 33 teams into of 30. Salaries would be higher as there`d be more teams bidding on free agents. The talent pool would be even further diluted, resulting in an even more boring game. Due to more games in the schedule to cover, more unqualified referees would be hired. Due to 60 more roster spots being opened up, 60 players not good enough to play in the NHL before would suddenly be NHLers. Jason Bonsignore and Rico Fata would be one of the new teams power-play units. Glenn Healey would still have a job as a starting goalie. The Hockey News would still suck.
     
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