Speculation: What if the Flames actually got O'Reilly back in the lockout season?

Fig

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Honest question, knowing our centreman history, does anyone wonder if Janko was a draft for need vs BPA?
 

Baxterman

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Honest question, knowing our centreman history, does anyone wonder if Janko was a draft for need vs BPA?

I think there were plenty of other Centers available if they were hell bent on the center route.

I think that what we have heard combined with other moves the "regime" made later makes the most sense. We heard they didn't love the guys in the 10-20 (maybe 30) range and we saw that they (maybe Feaster, maybe Wisebrod, maybe both) like to think of themselves as outside thinkers and smarter than everyone else. So when it came time to pick and they didnt like any of the options it gave them a chance to go with the pick that they loved and would show how much smarter they were. And when I say that I don't mean they were sitting back laughing saying "we"ll show them" kind of way I think they thought they had a gem that was going to be better than anyone knew and that they knew better than anyone else.
 

OvermanKingGainer

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Honest question, knowing our centreman history, does anyone wonder if Janko was a draft for need vs BPA?

Jankowski has a higher ceiling than any other player in that draft first round not named Filip Forsberg or Hampus Lindholm. He was BPA. Only guy they "might" have mistakenly passed on was Parayko, a draft overager who came out of nowhere to light the world on fire, or Murray, a goaltender which as we all know are wild guesses (Jon Gillies was selected before Murray, though)
 

Baxterman

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Jankowski has a higher ceiling than any other player in that draft first round not named Filip Forsberg or Hampus Lindholm. He was BPA.

Baloney.

On what basis was Mark Jankowski the highest ceiling guy in the draft but 2? How was his ceiling higher than Yakupov or Galchelnyuk? Hell how was it higher than Scott Laughton.

This is such a garbage line always touted by the Jankowski apologists and it is based on absolute nothing.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
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Button? Button didn't bring in Iginla or Kiprusoff who were by far the two best players on that team. As with most teams in hockey it was a combination because guys just aren't in the GM spot long enough to have total control over how a team was built. But Sutter bringing in Kiprusoff and the pieces duirng the season certainly was a key part of the team going to the finals rather than being out in the 1st round.

Also the currently has Gio, Brodie and Backlund thanks to Sutter. Those are 3 of the top 5 (maybe even top 4) important pieces to the team.

He left Feaster with great trade pieces in Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr and Kipper. Just because Feaster bungled those trades doesn't change the value that was there.

And Feaster left Treliving with several good pieces, too. What's your point?

The double standard here is ridiculous. "Sutter helped build the team that got to the finals in 2004." You know what other GM was in that final? Jay Feaster. And his team won. And he'd hired the coach that won it. And he'd been with that team a full two seasons, not just one and a bit.

Yet we should use that as a point in Sutter's favour, somehow.

Every GM leaves behind a core. I'm not saying Sutter left behind no talent. But what the team was when he left, thanks to a horrendous scouting philosophy and moves like the Jokinen trade and the Phaneuf trade, was an aging core with no roster flexibility, and startlingly few prospects.

When Feaster left, he left behind a younger core, a reasonably deep prospect pool and basically a blank slate for Treliving to work with. That's why I much prefer Feaster's legacy to Sutter's.

Ceci is a top 4 defenseman on a play-off team, Hertl was a top 6 center on multiple play-off teams, Wilson as I said is debatable but does play a key role for a good Washington team, Maata was a key defenseman (maybe top pairing) for the Pens when they won the Cup and Matheson is playing top 3 minutes for Florida and has represented Canada (although at WHC, i know).

So to be better than those guys Jankowski is going to have to be a decent top 6 guy which is possible but I wouldn't say likely.

That's a fine opinion, but Jankowski certainly seems to be trending to be exactly that. He had about as good a rookie season as a pro as anyone could hope for, and has basically matched expectations from when he was drafted to a T. I'm not sure what makes him unlikely to be a decent top-6 forward at this point.

I'm not concerned about the team success those players have enjoyed on their respective team. It doesn't impact our pick one iota. Maata wouldn't have been a cup-winning defenceman on our team, because he wouldn't be on a cup-winning team. He isn't a driver for them. Hertl wouldn't have made the cup finals on our team, because he wouldn't have been on a contending team. Etc.
 

Ace Rimmer

Stoke me a clipper.
His worst trades were the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades, how did you just ignore those two deals?

And no the Regehr deal was not a good one in hindsight. Getting a player that had a to take a 1 year minimum deal and was waived through 28 teams in the league and only picked up because a guy got a DUI a week before the season is not a good return for a guy like Regehr who 2 years later returned 2 2nd round picks. Throw in the fact we gave up a 2nd to get rid of Kotalik who just went to Europe and that deal was a bad deal for the Flames.

The Iginla deal was going to be a steaming pile of poo no matter how you look at it; the offer from Boston being the comparable, and in hindsight worse, offer.

The Bouwmeester deal was underwhelming but wasn't a bad trade. My only question is the timing - didn't have to make that deal and possibly could have done better at the draft, or during the offseason. Again, not horrible, but yes, maybe it could have been better.

Flames weren't going to be over the moon with any of these deals, especially given the wear and tear on Iginla and Regehr. I see the 2nd for Byron and Regehr for Butler. Jettisoning Kotalik was a bonus.
 

Baxterman

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That's a fine opinion, but Jankowski certainly seems to be trending to be exactly that. He had about as good a rookie season as a pro as anyone could hope for, and has basically matched expectations from when he was drafted to a T. I'm not sure what makes him unlikely to be a decent top-6 forward at this point.

I would say what makes him unlikely to be a decent top-6 forward would be his lack of skill, but even if he does get to that point that would make the pick good not great.

For the pick to be great, as it was first stated, Jankowski has to turn out better than the guys we would realisticallly have picked instead of him.

I'm not concerned about the team success those players have enjoyed on their respective team. It doesn't impact our pick one iota. Maata wouldn't have been a cup-winning defenceman on our team, because he wouldn't be on a cup-winning team. He isn't a driver for them. Hertl wouldn't have made the cup finals on our team, because he wouldn't have been on a contending team. Etc.

The only reason I included team accolades was to point out that they were doing this on good teams, not just being warm bodies on bottom level teams.
 

Anglesmith

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I would say what makes him unlikely to be a decent top-6 forward would be his lack of skill, but even if he does get to that point that would make the pick good not great.

For the pick to be great, as it was first stated, Jankowski has to turn out better than the guys we would realisticallly have picked instead of him.



The only reason I included team accolades was to point out that they were doing this on good teams, not just being warm bodies on bottom level teams.

I guess we'll have to see, but Jankowski has met every expectation so far, so I don't see why there would be unlikelihood for that development to suddenly stagnate.
 

Baxterman

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The Iginla deal was going to be a steaming pile of poo no matter how you look at it; the offer from Boston being the comparable, and in hindsight worse, offer.

The Bouwmeester deal was underwhelming but wasn't a bad trade. My only question is the timing - didn't have to make that deal and possibly could have done better at the draft, or during the offseason. Again, not horrible, but yes, maybe it could have been better.

Flames weren't going to be over the moon with any of these deals, especially given the wear and tear on Iginla and Regehr. I see the 2nd for Byron and Regehr for Butler. Jettisoning Kotalik was a bonus.

The main problem with the Iginla deal was that he wasn't he dealt a year earlier when the rumoured (and I know rumours are dangerous to believe but hard to not think that they weren't in the ballpark value-wise) were much, much better.

Also many former GM's talked about getting guys to sign a paper and they expressed surprise that Feaster hadn't done this. So he isn't completely off the hook on Boston being the only team he can deal with.

And finally as mentioned but to deal both Iginla and Bouwmeester and get zero quality prospects out of the deal or quality picks was really bad. Shouldn't be moving guys of that value for maybes in late 1sts.
 

Baxterman

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I guess we'll have to see, but Jankowski has met every expectation so far, so I don't see why there would be unlikelihood for that development to suddenly stagnate.

I would say following his development that top 6 is still a reach.

I also disagree that he has met every expectation as well.
 

Baxterman

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Really? Which expectation has he not met?

I thought his college career was very underwhelming, him not being good enough to leave college early was something I didn't expect, his AHL season for his age was underwhelming as well.
 

Flames Fanatic

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I thought his college career was very underwhelming, him not being good enough to leave college early was something I didn't expect, his AHL season for his age was underwhelming as well.

If you didn't expect him to take a full your years, you had the wrong expectation from the get go.

What more you want from a first year pro on a low scoring team in the AHL I don't really know either.

I'm pretty sure you are just trying to be the contrarian at this point.
 

InfinityIggy

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I thought his college career was very underwhelming, him not being good enough to leave college early was something I didn't expect, his AHL season for his age was underwhelming as well.

What? :laugh:

He lead all rookies in Goals. He finished 2nd in AHL rookie scoring (15th for all players). How is that underwhelming for his age? He was 22 the whole year.
 

Anglesmith

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I thought his college career was very underwhelming, him not being good enough to leave college early was something I didn't expect, his AHL season for his age was underwhelming as well.

If you didn't expect him to take a full your years, you had the wrong expectation from the get go.

What more you want from a first year pro on a low scoring team in the AHL I don't really know either.

I'm pretty sure you are just trying to be the contrarian at this point.

Bingo. Everything we were told indicated that even after four years, it was unlikely he'd be ready without further seasoning in the AHL. So that's not a case of meeting expectations, that's a matter of you deciding on your own arbitrary expectations for no reason.
 

Flames Fanatic

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Bingo. Everything we were told indicated that even after four years, it was unlikely he'd be ready without further seasoning in the AHL. So that's not a case of meeting expectations, that's a matter of you deciding on your own arbitrary expectations for no reason.

Hell, there was a chance it would be 5 years if he had stayed in prep school instead of going straight into college as originally planned.
 

Baxterman

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If you didn't expect him to take a full your years, you had the wrong expectation from the get go.

What more you want from a first year pro on a low scoring team in the AHL I don't really know either.

I'm pretty sure you are just trying to be the contrarian at this point.

I am talking about expectations for a potential top 6 forward.

For Jankowski I had zero expectations and so far he has struggled to even reach that level.

For a guy that is supposed to be top 6 in the NHL I expect a heck of a lot more than 56 points.
 

Flames Fanatic

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I am talking about expectations for a potential top 6 forward.

For Jankowski I had zero expectations and so far he has struggled to even reach that level.

For a guy that is supposed to be top 6 in the NHL I expect a heck of a lot more than 56 points.

I'm really not sure why I bother arguing with you.

56 points was good for 15th in the entire AHL last year.
 

Fig

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Dec 15, 2014
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I think there were plenty of other Centers available if they were hell bent on the center route.

I think that what we have heard combined with other moves the "regime" made later makes the most sense. We heard they didn't love the guys in the 10-20 (maybe 30) range and we saw that they (maybe Feaster, maybe Wisebrod, maybe both) like to think of themselves as outside thinkers and smarter than everyone else. So when it came time to pick and they didnt like any of the options it gave them a chance to go with the pick that they loved and would show how much smarter they were. And when I say that I don't mean they were sitting back laughing saying "we"ll show them" kind of way I think they thought they had a gem that was going to be better than anyone knew and that they knew better than anyone else.

Whoa, there were a lot of C in that draft. My bad.

Jankowski has a higher ceiling than any other player in that draft first round not named Filip Forsberg or Hampus Lindholm. He was BPA. Only guy they "might" have mistakenly passed on was Parayko, a draft overager who came out of nowhere to light the world on fire, or Murray, a goaltender which as we all know are wild guesses (Jon Gillies was selected before Murray, though)

Sure, but weren't Feaster and Weisbrod confident enough that Janko would still be there to trade down to acquire him? Or was the pool of centreman so large that they felt they could live with taking whoever and adding a 2nd to draft a wild card (Sieloff)
 

Anglesmith

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I am talking about expectations for a potential top 6 forward.

For Jankowski I had zero expectations and so far he has struggled to even reach that level.

For a guy that is supposed to be top 6 in the NHL I expect a heck of a lot more than 56 points.

Is there really any logical basis for comparing Jankowski to "the average NHLer," though, considering the extremely dubious factors which made him atypical?

This is something that a lot of people have had a hard time grasping since the pick was made. He was a few days away from being in the 2013 draft class, so that's nearly a whole year of difference vs. certain players in his class with whom he would be compared. But that is compounded with the fact that he was a late-bloomer physically who had just had a massive growth spurt during his draft year. That meant that he was one of the youngest kids in the draft class, and also didn't have the physical maturity to back it up.

I'm not sure why "time since he was drafted" is expected to be the same for him vs. other players, when "time since he became physically mature" is different by several years.

This is the reason that he was projected to take so long in the first place. But he's not the only one. There are guys taken in the first round all the time with scouts saying "he's not going to be ready for a long time," yet they still get taken high. If a player has no reason to not be physically ready, then that's one thing. But Jankowski had several concrete factors in why he was a long-term prospect.
 

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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Wasn't it rumored that Detroit offered up Tatar and Nyquist, but Feaster wanted a 1st? :shakehead

We settled for a lottery protected 1st too, which many people forget. Flames fans were cheering for the Blues to make the playoffs and dip in the 1st round so we could pick 15th-22nd

15th-22nd > Nyquist + Tatar in Feaster's mind.
 

Bjornar Moxnes

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We settled for a lottery protected 1st too, which many people forget. Flames fans were cheering for the Blues to make the playoffs and dip in the 1st round so we could pick 15th-22nd

15th-22nd > Nyquist + Tatar in Feaster's mind.

I actually thought we had a chance at Wennberg with the pick :dunno: :dunno:
 

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