What if Mario had missed?

[Nalyd Psycho]

Czechs and Slovaks in the NHL in the 70s-80s???

By 1981 Nedomansky, Hlinka, Bubla and the three Stastnys were playing North American pro hockey. That is enough to be the difference maker between the Czechslovakian team winning and losing against Russia.

 

[El_Loco_Avs]

I'm not part of a group saying all our victories are moments of unfiltered greatness and everybody elses are the result of cheating.


Is there a law saying a have to agree with this attitude also? is this the next demand of Russian fans?

That's the difference between us and you guys by the looks of it. Well,there does seem to be one fan from there who is willing to call it straight down the middle from both sides and that's all i ask.

You can''t see that you''re generalizing to the extreme and then picking out the ones that don''t fit in to your generalization. There is exactly *one* russian fan doing what you claim Russians Fans do.

Regardless of the points made about the unfairness of the Canada cup being true or not (i wouldn''t know.. i wasn''t there) you're biased against the fans.

I do respect you for acknowledging their hockey despite your dislike though.

 

[Tighina]

I never said that.
So what if Canada invented hockey? You seem to emphasize this over and over.

Because it seems inappropriate to me to strike a pose of hockey gods with them. With Slovenians and Kazakhs - sure.

You said that being Russian has not made you blind, but obviously living in North America has.

This is a reaction to my saying that Canada never sent their A team to the WC? In which way is this false?

Stop generalizing. Even if this is true, it would not make Canadians stronger mentally.

Not Canadians, their hockey teams. And this is not my opinion only. Tarasov said the same thing.

So it is not true that Canadian hockey is more individualistic or that Canadian coaches like to change lines up?

Which makes team chemistry totally insignificant? You obviously don't know hockey very well.

What truth?
Weak opposition? In the Olympics, yes, in the World Championships, no.

Not weak, simply not the best available.

I still don't understand?

Lucky you.

 

[espo*]

You can''t see that you''re generalizing to the extreme and then picking out the ones that don''t fit in to your generalization. There is exactly *one* russian fan doing what you claim Russians Fans do.

Regardless of the points made about the unfairness of the Canada cup being true or not (i wouldn''t know.. i wasn''t there) you're biased against the fans.

I do respect you for acknowledging their hockey despite your dislike though.

There is more then one for sure.I've noticed a general lack of respect from their fans when it comes to our hockey to the extreme.Sure,you'll find one here and there (i find it's started to improve since i've taken up a bit of a crusade against their fans attitude,i guess they realise they are over the top in their blindness towards players from anywhere other then Russia) But overall they tend to give no comment on players other then Russians and when they do break down and even discuss Canadian players it's nearly always derogatory in some aspect.I think it's clear from a few of the threads here just the past couple of days that they have no problem accepting praise but have deep difficulties giving it on average,a very high average at that.Sure,i can't say ALL Russian fans are un-reasoanable but from my offhand calculations i'd have to say 90% of them in my dealings are.That's a terrible average so i stand by what i say about them.

When they become more balanced i'll take a different view of them as a group but so far from my experience with them they are real stubborn about bending.it should'nt kill them to give other teams respect,we give them plenty around here so...................

If i had noticed this high average attitude with fans from say,Sweden, i'd be on them too but i don't so i'm not.

Theres definately a difference that i've noticed.Until i see it changing i stand by what i say.


But yes,i do RESPECT their players(and i will never ay they did'nt deserve victories they've won playing against our best players) .I don't like their fans vey much but i'd never deny their players talents as hockey stars.Even today they have some of the most ungodly skilled guys.

 

[espo*]

You have every right to 'hate' Russian hockey, however, it DOES make you extremely biased.....and (as you've even alluded to towards Russian posters) its hard to argue with somebody who doesn't see anything in an objective manner.

However, I think we can meet somewhere in the middle. True....you do give credit where credit is due; I'll give you that -- but you fail to admit the advantages Canada ALWAYS had against the Soviets.

Canada won fair and square under the circumstances - however, it's these circumstances that many Russians see as illegitimate (much like you see the WC). Apart from the last Summit Series games, every meaningful contest between the superpowers was always in Canada, on the small ice, in front of a Canadian crowd, with Canadian refs. The Soviets were fighting an uphill battle every single time. And in a best on best series, it's not a fair way to determine the true champion when 1 side always has home ice/field advantage -- that goes for any sport.

Again, Canada deserved to win - but many of you Canadian 'homers' fail to acknowledge that the Canada Cup was set up for Canada to win. And in the eyes of many, that makes the CC illegitimate - and can be construed as Canada needing home ice/home refs to win; or even as cheating. That's the truth, plain and simple.
I can only imagine the Canadian response if every 'best on best' tourney was held in Russia, on the big ice, in front of hostile Soviet fans, with Soviets refs. You Canada fans would be complaining nonstop too.



Don't be juvenile.

I stand by what i said.

And when you guys won against our best you guys out-played us and when we won we out-played you guys.You talk about advantages but for very advantage the Canadian team had i could most likely name an advantage the Soviet teams had.Actually they had the biggest advantage you could hope for at these tournaments,The fact they could mold a team like they could under their old system.The fact is both teams got to send their best teams and those games were the true test,at least as good a test as we could hope for at the time.There was some incredible hockey that we were lucky enough to witness and sometimes we were fortunate enough to win and sometimes we were'nt.

But you won't get away with disrespecting our victories as long as i'm around here.I now how good your teams were that you sent,the fact that we were able to beat you guys shows how good our teams were and they deserve all the credit they get from fans who understand this.

If your wins are credited by us i find no reason why you can't credit ours.Both teams had their best players and played the game at the highest level i think i've ever seen it.Don't sully the members of either team by trying to lay asterisks on those games,it's an insult to the hockey they played. It's funny because if you asked Russian players that played in that series how they felt about those games i'm sure you would not see the attitude i see displayed by your fans here.


I watched those games and lived for them.You think i don't realise how great those Soviet teams were? I dunno,maybe it's you guys that don't really think you were that good.But i know how good your teams were.Anybody,and i mean anybody, who was able to beat those Soviet teams at any tournament at any time under any rink size in any country...........................they GODDAMN well earned it.

I've got nothing more to say here.

 

[Tighina]

Again, Canada deserved to win - but many of you Canadian 'homers' fail to acknowledge that the Canada Cup was set up for Canada to win. And in the eyes of many, that makes the CC illegitimate - and can be construed as Canada needing home ice/home refs to win; or even as cheating. That's the truth, plain and simple.
I can only imagine the Canadian response if every 'best on best' tourney was held in Russia, on the big ice, in front of hostile Soviet fans, with Soviets refs. You Canada fans would be complaining nonstop too.

In the perfect world, they'd play a best-of-whatever series on neutral ice and Canada would've had a year to gel together as a team while only playing practice games against token opposition, the way CSKA (aka USSR) played in their home "league".
In the perfect world, Tsygankov and Mahovlich drop the gloves in center ice and linesmen don't interfere until blood is drawn.
In the perfect world, the Soviet team's tactics are not influenced by ideology and players and coaches are given creative freedom.
In the perfect world, no politics are involved whatsoever, from either side.
In the perfect world, the refs make no mistakes at all and Tretiak doesn't retire at 31.
In the perfect world, Kharlamov and Ragulin are still alive and getting nicely trashed with Espo and Clarkie in a Vegas bar.
In the perfect world, Zimin is drafted by Buffalo, wins two Stanley Cups and makes sure nobody is ever surprised by Gionta, St.Louis or any other shrimpy goal-scorer making it all the way.

But we wound up with what we got. Better than nothing, nyet?

 

[Zine]

I stand by what i said..

........And this proves you've outed yourself long ago.

And your generalization of all Russians (your 90% figure) is so obsurd it discredits anything else you have to say.
Is this 90% based on your contact with Russians on message boards?
Have you ever been to Russia? Thought so.

You talk about advantages but for very advantage the Canadian team had i could most likely name an advantage the Soviet teams had.Actually they had the biggest advantage you could hope for at these tournaments,The fact they could mold a team like they could under their old system...

OK I'll bite. For every Canadian advantage name me one the Soviets had. Let's hear them. What are they?
The Soviets had 1 (albeit a big one too), but that alone doesn't superceed every other advantage Canada had.

But you won't get away with disrespecting our victories as long as i'm around here....

Who are you now.....the international hockey police? Good job.


Bottom line, Canada won those CC fair and square but I can see how people view them as tainted because they WERE set up for Canada to win. Any objective person can see that. Always having home ice, fans, rules, refs. C'mon.

However, the Summit Series was different. Canada deserves that 100%

 

[espo*]

Like i said zine........i'm done.


I stand by what i've said about you and yours,Prove me wrong.

Your last post only confirms.


Get ready hockey fans,the WJC is just around the corner.There will be much nashing and grinding of teeth very soon,that you can count on.It's Russian fans,it's their M.O. it'll be a dreadful couple of weeks should they not win.

It almost makes me hope they................................nah.

 

[Marcus-74]

By 1981 Nedomansky, Hlinka, Bubla and the three Stastnys were playing North American pro hockey. That is enough to be the difference maker between the Czechslovakian team winning and losing against Russia.

Nedomansky was 36-37 in 1981 and Hlinka & Bubla were past their primes too. The Stastnys... well, you might have something there. But it would be ridiculous to claim that the the Soviets did not meet the best possible Czech team all through the ´70s. That Czech team certainly gave hell (2 out of 3) to the "best Team Canada ever" (according to many) in the ´76 CC.

 

[YMB29]

Maybe you should do some research before you spout your tripe.

You are the one who is spouting tribe and in need of checking facts.

In addition alot of Euros played in the NHL in the 80's and some played in the WHA and the NHL in the 70's, especially Swedes who had their national team rosters decimated by the North American pro leagues.

How many Swedes who would have made the national team played in the NHL before the 90’s? And don’t forget that if they played in the NHL, it does not mean that they did not play for their national team in the World Championships.

By 1981 Nedomansky, Hlinka, Bubla and the three Stastnys were playing North American pro hockey. That is enough to be the difference maker between the Czechslovakian team winning and losing against Russia.

Nedomansky and the Stastnys defected, so they would not have played anyway.
Hlinka and Bubla were getting old when they were allowed to play in the NHL and probably were not of much use to the national team.

Because it seems inappropriate to me to strike a pose of hockey gods with them. With Slovenians and Kazakhs - sure.

What?

This is a reaction to my saying that Canada never sent their A team to the WC? In which way is this false?

Other countries did. And as I said before, Canada did send close to their best in some years.

Not Canadians, their hockey teams. And this is not my opinion only. Tarasov said the same thing.

He said it one time, so it is supposed to be always true.

Which makes team chemistry totally insignificant? You obviously don't know hockey very well.

I did not say that, just that for Canadian hockey, it does not matter nearly as much.

Not weak, simply not the best available.

Not the best from Canada, but that was only Canada’s fault.

Lucky you.

I am lucky that I did not understand your crap??

CSKA (aka USSR)

This is not true.

 

[El_Loco_Avs]

Like i said zine........i'm done.


I stand by what i've said about you and yours,Prove me wrong.

Your last post only confirms.


Get ready hockey fans,the WJC is just around the corner.There will be much nashing and grinding of teeth very soon,that you can count on.It's Russian fans,it's their M.O. it'll be a dreadful couple of weeks should they not win.

It almost makes me hope they................................nah.

Your mention of 90% of their fans acting as such seems a stretch when there''s only one in this thread.

I'd be just as justified pulling the card that Canadians just hate "p***yfied european"" squads and that there are loads of them.
There are not. Just a couple of VERY vocal idiots. It's the same everywhere. Direct your annoyance at the individuals... don''t judge the entire group.

 

[Zine]

Like i said zine........i'm done.


I stand by what i've said about you and yours,Prove me wrong.

Your last post only confirms.

I don't have to prove you wrong, you've already shown your true colors.....or hatred that is.

As El_Loco_Avs has stated, direct your annoyance at the individuals..don't judge the entire group.

It's a shame b/c you do have some good arguments; however, it hard to take someone seriously who makes such blanket and ignorant statements against other people and hockey programs.

Like I said earlier, you're the same as the Russian 'homers' on this board - just on the other side of the fence.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Nedomansky was 36-37 in 1981 and Hlinka & Bubla were past their primes too. The Stastnys... well, you might have something there. But it would be ridiculous to claim that the the Soviets did not meet the best possible Czech team all through the ´70s. That Czech team certainly gave hell (2 out of 3) to the "best Team Canada ever" (according to many) in the ´76 CC.

Obviously in the case of nedomansky, it was a bigger loss earlier, I was just pointing out that by the early 80's the Czechslovakian team had started to lose national team players to the NHL. Thus, the Russians had an advantage on them as well. By the early 80's Russia was the only country uneffected by the NHL.

 

[Wisent]

In the perfect world, they'd play a best-of-whatever series on neutral ice and Canada would've had a year to gel together as a team while only playing practice games against token opposition, the way CSKA (aka USSR) played in their home "league".
In the perfect world, Tsygankov and Mahovlich drop the gloves in center ice and linesmen don't interfere until blood is drawn.
In the perfect world, the Soviet team's tactics are not influenced by ideology and players and coaches are given creative freedom.
In the perfect world, no politics are involved whatsoever, from either side.
In the perfect world, the refs make no mistakes at all and Tretiak doesn't retire at 31.
In the perfect world, Kharlamov and Ragulin are still alive and getting nicely trashed with Espo and Clarkie in a Vegas bar.
In the perfect world, Zimin is drafted by Buffalo, wins two Stanley Cups and makes sure nobody is ever surprised by Gionta, St.Louis or any other shrimpy goal-scorer making it all the way.

But we wound up with what we got. Better than nothing, nyet?

When Bobrov was coach they came close, although not for long.

 

[Marcus-74]

Obviously in the case of nedomansky, it was a bigger loss earlier, I was just pointing out that by the early 80's the Czechslovakian team had started to lose national team players to the NHL. Thus, the Russians had an advantage on them as well. By the early 80's Russia was the only country uneffected by the NHL.

If we look at the last World Championships where EVERYONE (except North Americans of course) had their absolute best I would say it was the 1973 WCs (Börje Salming left for the NHL after that and soon many other top Swedes followed him to either WHA or NHL).

But the Soviets´main rival in Europe Czechoslovakia had all of their key players (minus Nedomansky who was 29-30 when he defected in ´74) in the ´70s. Hope we can agree on that one?

And, you know, the Soviets were so strong in the early ´80s that I, personally, don´t believe it would have changed anything, as Canada Cups sort of proved.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

And, you know, the Soviets were so strong in the early ´80s that I, personally, don´t believe it would have changed anything, as Canada Cups sort of proved.

While I don't dissagree, they still had an advantage, which is sad because they really didn't need one at all.

 

[espo*]

I don't have to prove you wrong, you've already shown your true colors.....or hatred that is.

As El_Loco_Avs has stated, direct your annoyance at the individuals..don't judge the entire group.

It's a shame b/c you do have some good arguments; however, it hard to take someone seriously who makes such blanket and ignorant statements against other people and hockey programs.

Like I said earlier, you're the same as the Russian 'homers' on this board - just on the other side of the fence.

I disagree and i've said why. i never said there isn't Canadian homers (i am definately one as you said so,i don't deny that) however,there is a difference between preferring your team and tending to look at things with rose couloured glasses concerning them and outright calling your teams victories feats of greatness while labellling everyone elses as the result of cheating.I don't see Canadian fans doing that but i sure as heck see yours engaging in it.

Until i see a change in that i can't call Russian and Canadian homer fans the same.Maybe you can give me some facts to change my mind here.

But this is definately a very good game of argument tennis.

 

[espo*]

Your mention of 90% of their fans acting as such seems a stretch when there''s only one in this thread.

I'd be just as justified pulling the card that Canadians just hate "p***yfied european"" squads and that there are loads of them.
There are not. Just a couple of VERY vocal idiots. It's the same everywhere. Direct your annoyance at the individuals... don''t judge the entire group.

it's not just this thread,it's a tendency i've noticed from observing Russian fans attitudes and behaviours concerning non-Russian players and past failures that i've witnessed here over the course of a couple of years here. But even in this thread(if you look at a couple currently on here like this one and the Koharski one here) you'll see it's definately more then one guy.

For me,the majority being 50+1 (though i've observed over the years that the percentage of their fans who feel this way would blow 50+1 straight out of the water) Not that i'm going to go through 2 years or so worth of posts to prove anything,i simply don't have that kind of time.

Remember (it keeps sadly being forgotten) no Canadian fan came on the thread here and was the one to start things up here so i don't know why people are after me.It was a Russian fan..................go give him heck.As i've said before,you're after the wrong guy!!! When you concentrate on going after someone who had nothing to do with starting things here to begin with you're off target and actually give them a reason to think they have carte blanche in doing that sort of thing without expecting people to take them up on it.

and i don't deny them their right to say whatever they want,i do however have the right to question them when they do so.

It's just a general trend i've noticed after a few years around here,not just one thread.

I'll give you the point about not lumping all Russian fans into the same group as surely not every russian fan shares the same attitudes as a few you see here in a couple of threads.However,i have noticed over time that a striking amount of them do,so much so that it's kind of disturbing.I'm the type of person who will call it as i see it.I won't cozy it up in the interests of keeping the peace,i just tell it like i see it.

As for Canadian fans who think European players are a bunch of *******,i agree.............plenty of our fans do.You can't say all of them do but plenty of them do.Since it's o.k to admit and talk about the great amount of Canadian fans that have this attitude.......is it not equally o.k to alk about the great amount of Russian fans who still cling to the idea this very day that Canada cheated their way to many victories? And there definately MANY. Is there a free pass for Russian fans?

That's how i see it anyway.

But yes,not ALL Russian fans feel this way.But then again,not all of them need to for me form an opinion on them as a group concerning their general feelings on this subject.A strong majority allows me to do that.

 

[Tighina]

Other countries did. And as I said before, Canada did send close to their best in some years.

Nowhere near it. Besides, they all were assembled a couple of days prior to the tournament (or joined it in the process). Canadians also, prior to recent years, didn't take this tournament very seriously.
The WC was never, in its entire existense, attended by the best available players. Even during the lockout many of them refused. It simply doesn't have a high enough status.

He said it one time, so it is supposed to be always true.

Kulagin said the same thing: "We will not beat the Canadians until we can match their will and intensity".
But surely these are not strong enough authorities for you. I am sorry, the only other ones I have are Yakushev, Larionov and Vyacheslav Bykov. You probably outweigh them too.

I did not say that, just that for Canadian hockey, it does not matter nearly as much.

I was hoping this was a joke. I really was. I am not even sure still that I have to explain you why.

Not the best from Canada, but that was only Canada’s fault.

I don't see how. Up until the mid-70s NHL players were not allowed to participate in international events. Not allowed by the IIHF. After they were, the IIHF refused to change the dates of the WC to accomodate NHL playoffs. And you have to admit that it is much easier to shift the WC two weeks down the schedule than for the Stanley Cup to be played at a faster pace. Besides, the NHL has been around longer than the WC and it is not obligated to abide by its whims.

But even it were somehow Canada's "fault", it still doesn't give you the right to shake these "gold medals" in their face. These awards were not won against Canada's best players, so in their eyes they are insignificant. You should respect this fact.
Like I said, you can brag all you want to the Swedes and the Czechs, that's quite fair. They were the ones we beat in equal conditions.

 

[YMB29]

I was just pointing out that by the early 80's the Czechslovakian team had started to lose national team players to the NHL.

Lose players? Who did they lose? Two that defected and became Canadians and two old stars that were allowed to leave.

Thus, the Russians had an advantage on them as well. By the early 80's Russia was the only country uneffected by the NHL.

That is what you like to think.

Nowhere near it. Besides, they all were assembled a couple of days prior to the tournament (or joined it in the process).

That is their fault only. And in the World Championships there were more games to play and get the team together, it is not like the World Cup where only the finalists play six games.

The WC was never, in its entire existense, attended by the best available players. Even during the lockout many of them refused. It simply doesn't have a high enough status.

It did not have status in North America because Canada was not winning it.
Maybe it was not attended by the best players of every country, but mostly all countries besides Canada had their best.

Kulagin said the same thing: "We will not beat the Canadians until we can match their will and intensity".

When did he say that?

But surely these are not strong enough authorities for you. I am sorry, the only other ones I have are Yakushev, Larionov and Vyacheslav Bykov. You probably outweigh them too.

What? Explain.

I was hoping this was a joke. I really was. I am not even sure still that I have to explain you why.

Well why?

I don't see how. Up until the mid-70s NHL players were not allowed to participate in international events. Not allowed by the IIHF. After they were, the IIHF refused to change the dates of the WC to accomodate NHL playoffs. And you have to admit that it is much easier to shift the WC two weeks down the schedule than for the Stanley Cup to be played at a faster pace. Besides, the NHL has been around longer than the WC and it is not obligated to abide by its whims.

And they are not obligated to accomodate the NHL.

But even it were somehow Canada's "fault", it still doesn't give you the right to shake these "gold medals" in their face. These awards were not won against Canada's best players, so in their eyes they are insignificant. You should respect this fact.
Like I said, you can brag all you want to the Swedes and the Czechs, that's quite fair. They were the ones we beat in equal conditions.

They could have paused the NHL season and playoffs, but maybe Canadians thought they could not win anyway, so they created the Canada Cup to show that they are still a hockey superpower.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Lose players? Who did they lose? Two that defected and became Canadians and two old stars that were allowed to leave.

And the defections aren't lost players? Russia didn't have any defectors until much later than Czechslovakia. Therefore, the Czechslovakian team was at a stronger disadvantage than the Russian team.

That is what you like to think.

And who did the Russians lose to balance things out?

 

[Paxton Fettel]

Canada cheated!

 

[espo*]

The irony is murderous.

Fans of the biggest cheaters ever seen in international hockey (the Soviet Union) complaining that all their failures were due to cheating.

For years they passed off a totally professional team in every sense of the word and sent it over to beat up on inferior competition consisting of pro rejects and college kids and collected a slew of gold medals in the process.I hope that makes you so proud.


The I.O.C should go into every locked cabinet of those Russian players from those teams and smash them open and take the medals right from them while walking away saying......."we are righting a wrong,you don't deserve these,shame on your government and hockey federation"



100% totally sickening.

 

[Fido22]

Wow, never seen such a pointless OP lead to some quite interesting discussions. I've enjoyed reading your posts Tighina.

 

[Paxton Fettel]

The irony is murderous.

Fans of the biggest cheaters ever seen in international hockey (the Soviet Union) complaining that all their failures were due to cheating.

For years they passed off a totally professional team in every sense of the word and sent it over to beat up on inferior competition consisting of pro rejects and college kids and collected a slew of gold medals in the process.I hope that makes you so proud.


The I.O.C should go into every locked cabinet of those Russian players from those teams and smash them open and take the medals right from them while walking away saying......."we are righting a wrong,you don't deserve these,shame on your government and hockey federation"



100% totally sickening.

You know that I'm right about Canada cheating. It's an inconvenient truth, and to feel better about it you have to somehow bash the Russians again and again ... but I don't know why you're doing this, I don't care about the USSR and their medals. You should talk to the Russians.

Bottom line : Canada cheated in 1987. And not just then ...