Wha

[Shootmaster_44]

Since the WHA came and went before I was born. I was curious if someone was to put together an all-time team for the league would be on it. Keeping in mind I am only curious about their WHA career, so Gordie Howe's NHL career should not be considered.

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[BM67]

The top left wings would be Bobby Hull and Marc Tardif, both were two-time WHA MVP.

Right wing would probably be between Real Cloutier, Anders Hedberg, and Gordie Howe.

Center is topped by Andre Lacroix, 3-time 1st team all-star and leading WHA scorer. Ulf Nilsson probably ranks next, although Robbie Ftorek might beat him out on the strength of an extra WHA season and an MVP award.

Goal is probably between Gerry Cheevers and Ron Grahame, with Ernie Wakely getting length of service consideration.

Defense starts with JC Tremblay, and Paul Shmyr, but after that it's up for grabs. Pat Stapleton, Ron Plumb, Lars Sjoberg and Rick Ley all won best defenseman once each. Mark Howe split time between LW and D, but probably deserves a spot here.

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/5206/

 

[Ogopogo*]

Since the WHA came and went before I was born. I was curious if someone was to put together an all-time team for the league would be on it. Keeping in mind I am only curious about their WHA career, so Gordie Howe's NHL career should not be considered.

Using my system

Here are the greatest point scorers in WHA history:

1 Andre Lacroix
2 Real Cloutier
3 Bobby Hull
4 Ulf Nilsson
5 Marc Tardif
6 Rob Ftorek
7 Anders Hedberg
8 Mike Walton
9 Ron Ward
10 Danny Lawson
Gordie Howe
Serge Bernier
Wayne Gretzky
14 Chris Bordeleau
Kent Nilsson
Mark Howe
Wayne Connelly
18 Tom Webster
Norm Beaudin
Larry Lund
21 Morris Lukowich
Wayne Carleton
Wayne Rivers
24 Bryan Campbell
25 Rich Leduc


Greatest Goal Scorers:

1 Bobby Hull
2 Real Cloutier
3 Marc Tardif
4 Anders Hedberg
5 Danny Lawson
6 Tom Webster
7 Mike Walton
8 Rob Ftorek
Morris Lukowich
10 Serge Bernier
Wayne Rivers
12 Vaclav Nedomansky
Mark Napier
14 Ron Ward
Wayne Gretzky
Peter Sullivan
17 Rich Leduc
Blaine Stoughton
19 Andre Lacroix
Frank Hughes
Tod Simpson
Rejean Houle
Peter Marsh
24 Wayne Connelly
25 Mark Howe
Chris Bordeleau
27 Kent Nilsson
Paulin Bordeleau
29 Gary Veneruzzo
Del Hall
31 George Morrison



Greatest Playmakers:

1 Andre Lacroix
2 Ulf Nilsson
3 Marc Tardif
4 JC Tremblay
5 Rob Ftorek
6 Gordie Howe
7 Real Cloutier
8 Kent Nilsson
9 Chris Bordeleau
10 Larry Lund
11 Terry Ruskowski
Bryan Campbell
Ron Ward
Bobby Hull
15 Norm Beaudin
Mike Walton
Serge Bernier
Mark Howe
19 Bob Sicinski
Andre Hinse
Wayne Dillon
Wayne Gretzky
23 Terry Caffery
Dave Keon
Wayne Carleton
26 Gord Labossiere
Anders Hedberg
28 Wayne Connelly

 

[pappyline]

An all star time would go something like this (players with significant WHA tenures):

Forwards
Hedberg-Lacroix-Hull
Cloutier-U.Nilsson-Tardiff
G.Howe-Ftorek-Lawson
Webster-walton-Bernier

defense
Trembly-Mark howe
Green-Sjoberg
Stapleton-Shmyr

goal
Wakely
Daley

 

[brianscot]

Why arent Nilsson and Hedberg in the Hall of Fame yet?

No, they didnt put up the traditional NHL huge numbers that usually punch a ticket to enshrinement, but they did have a huge impact on how the game is played.

They were among the first Euro's to come over and show North America that hockey could be more than just an stay in your lane, up and down, dump and chase game.

Glen Sather always credited the Nilsson/Hedberg influence in being instrumental in creating the Oiler offensive style in the big 80s.

 

[Malefic74]

Because the NHL still despises and resents all aspects of the WHA.

Many great players who played in the WHA are not honoured, they weren't allowed to participate in the Summit Series or the Canada Cup. And while the HHOF claims to be purely hockey, it is nonetheless heavily influenced by the NHL which can certainly hold a grudge.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Because the NHL still despises and resents all aspects of the WHA.

Many great players who played in the WHA are not honoured, they weren't allowed to participate in the Summit Series or the Canada Cup. And while the HHOF claims to be purely hockey, it is nonetheless heavily influenced by the NHL which can certainly hold a grudge.

Much like the NHL's assinine decision to say that Gretzky was never an NHL rookie - simply because he played one year in the WHA.

When comparing great rookie seasons, Gretzky's is the standard. I don't care what political grudge the NHL holds. It is wrong to give Sergei Makarov a Calder Trophy after a decade in the Russian Elite League and shut Gretzky out because of his one year in the WHA.

Someitmes, the NHL makes stupid decisions.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Don't count the wha out yet.. if you check the 'other usa amateur' forum and follow the thread link to the website, you will see that mr. hull and his minions are rising that beast out of the ashes. BIG TIME

 

[ClassicHockey]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WHA to return anytime soon, at least not according to my talks with the promoters and of the 'Golden Jet' himself.

Don't count the wha out yet.. if you check the 'other usa amateur' forum and follow the thread link to the website, you will see that mr. hull and his minions are rising that beast out of the ashes. BIG TIME

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the WHA to return anytime soon, at least not according to my talks with the promoters and of the 'Golden Jet' himself.

the wha is now a 'super junior league' in southern florida. I was being silly

 

[reckoning]

Why arent Nilsson and Hedberg in the Hall of Fame yet?

The same reason J.C. Tremblay died without ever getting his rightfully-deserved spot in the Hall. Hopefully the grudge-holding dinosaurs will be phased out and past wrongs righted in Mark Howe`s lifetime.

Here`s what Bobby Hull said about Hedberg and Nilsson in "The Rebel League":

"It was a new lease on life. I was ready to call it quits, then I finally found a couple of kids who played the game the way I wanted to play it. They took a ****-kicking that first year. I really think those two were the toughest guys I ever played with."

 

[chooch*]

Why arent Nilsson and Hedberg in the Hall of Fame yet?

No, they didnt put up the traditional NHL huge numbers that usually punch a ticket to enshrinement, but they did have a huge impact on how the game is played.

They were among the first Euro's to come over and show North America that hockey could be more than just an stay in your lane, up and down, dump and chase game.
Glen Sather always credited the Nilsson/Hedberg influence in being instrumental in creating the Oiler offensive style in the big 80s.

??

ever heard of the montreal canadiens of the 70's? your paragraph in bold does a disservice to Orr, Lalfeur, Cournoyer, Perreault, Ratelle etc cetc .

Nillsson especially - nice guy but he was awful every time I saw him. In Challenge Cup, and 79 Finals.

The WHa was a bush league - its not a grudge just reality that keeps those guys out of the Hall on WHA creds.

 

[mcphee]

Guys, Mark Howe ? Did he not convert to D in the NHL ? I thought he played the wing exclusively until the NHL. Marty Howe was a D man, though not really a star.


I could be off base, but I thougt it was that way.

 

[mcphee]

An all star time would go something like this (players with significant WHA tenures):

Forwards
Hedberg-Lacroix-Hull
Cloutier-U.Nilsson-Tardiff
G.Howe-Ftorek-Lawson
Webster-walton-Bernier

defense
Trembly-Mark howe
Green-Sjoberg
Stapleton-Shmyr

goal
Wakely
Daley

Imagine if Shmyr was in the league now ? Pap would have been an all time great nickname.

 

[pappyline]

Guys, Mark Howe ? Did he not convert to D in the NHL ? I thought he played the wing exclusively until the NHL. Marty Howe was a D man, though not really a star.


I could be off base, but I thougt it was that way.

Mark Howe did break into the WHA as a LW but was switched back & forth between LW & defense. He made the WHa 2nd all star team as a defenceman. He was also the MVP of the 78 WHA all star game as a defenceman.

 

[pappyline]

??

ever heard of the montreal canadiens of the 70's? your paragraph in bold does a disservice to Orr, Lalfeur, Cournoyer, Perreault, Ratelle etc cetc .

Nillsson especially - nice guy but he was awful every time I saw him. In Challenge Cup, and 79 Finals.

The WHa was a bush league - its not a grudge just reality that keeps those guys out of the Hall on WHA creds.

What a knee jerk reponse. Bush League you say. The Hull-Nilsson-Hedberg line was the first line I ever saw that used a criss cross breakout play. I saw it live against the Toronto Toros at MLG and it was beautiful to watch. These 3 guys had so much skill.

Bush League you say. in 1975-76, Soviet club teams beat NHL teams 5 games to 2. In 77-78 WHA club teams beat a Soviet all star team 4 games to 3. They beat a Czech all star team 6 games to one. One of the best games I havee ever seen was the 6-4 win by Winnipeg over the Soviet all stars on Dec20, 1977.

 

[mcphee]

Mark Howe did break into the WHA as a LW but was switched back & forth between LW & defense. He made the WHa 2nd all star team as a defenceman. He was also the MVP of the 78 WHA all star game as a defenceman.

I'll show this to my wife as proof that I can admit to being wrong.


Nahh, she'll just get pissed at my feeble Pap Schmyr joke.

 

[Murphy]

What a knee jerk reponse. Bush League you say. The Hull-Nilsson-Hedberg line was the first line I ever saw that used a criss cross breakout play. I saw it live against the Toronto Toros at MLG and it was beautiful to watch. These 3 guys had so much skill.

This exactly what Glen Sather thought as well. He modelled the Oilers offense after this line.

 

[brianscot]

??

ever heard of the montreal canadiens of the 70's? your paragraph in bold does a disservice to Orr, Lalfeur, Cournoyer, Perreault, Ratelle etc cetc .

Nillsson especially - nice guy but he was awful every time I saw him. In Challenge Cup, and 79 Finals.

The WHa was a bush league - its not a grudge just reality that keeps those guys out of the Hall on WHA creds.

Despite the anomlies mentioned above, the NHL in the early 70s was still a dump and chase league. Yes, there were obvious exceptions, but there wasn't a league wide embracing of more diverse attacks.

The style put forth by some early European players in the WHA (along with the obvious Soviet influence) spurrred the change in North American hockey style, beginning first with youth. Just read anything Gretzky has to say about it for further evidence.

The Hall of Fame isnt just about numbers or where those numbers took place, its about influence upon the game.

 

[mcphee]

Despite the anomlies mentioned above, the NHL in the early 70s was still a dump and chase league. Yes, there were obvious exceptions, but there wasn't a league wide embracing of more diverse attacks.

The style put forth by some early European players in the WHA (along with the obvious Soviet influence) spurrred the change in North American hockey style, beginning first with youth. Just read anything Gretzky has to say about it for further evidence.

The Hall of Fame isnt just about numbers or where those numbers took place, its about influence upon the game.

I don't think you can just call it a dump and chase league and be right. Of the original 6 teams in the early 70's none played a conservative style. The Leafs were beginning a slide but they played more wide open hockey than they did during the good years. What was a problem was the 6 expansion teams had to play a defensive style to be competitive due to a wide gap in talent. St. Louis embraced this and was the best ex. team right away.Say what you want about Philly, but they had some guys who were creative.

While the Jets line was innovative and they did bring some different offensive concepts to the game, they hardly carried hockey out of some kind of doldrum. The problem as I remember it from about 68-72 was just competitive balance.

In Montreal we'd get Sunday night Nordique broadcasts and while fun to watch at times, we weren't seeing classic hockey. They had the same problems. Some teams attracted a few NHL stars, some loaded up with the best AHL'ers, but you'd see bad games too. The WHA had charm in that they weren't bound by the rules of an NHL that had it's own way too long. They were sort of a barnstorming league where you'd hear weird stories every week.

I agree that the NHL's heavy handedness in punishing the Hull's and Tremblay's of the world seems petty, but let's not re-write history.

 

[chooch*]

Despite the anomlies mentioned above, the NHL in the early 70s was still a dump and chase league. Yes, there were obvious exceptions, but there wasn't a league wide embracing of more diverse attacks.

The style put forth by some early European players in the WHA (along with the obvious Soviet influence) spurrred the change in North American hockey style, beginning first with youth. Just read anything Gretzky has to say about it for further evidence.

The Hall of Fame isnt just about numbers or where those numbers took place, its about influence upon the game.

Not sure what you mean. You mean the young NA players in the WHA took to the Euro game? Gee I dont know - I dont recall the Jets or Flames or Oilers playing a different game than the other teams after the merger; just that they didnt play defence. The Whalers played neither.

As for the great Winnipeg teams in the WHA beating the soviets, who was in nets for the Jets, Gary Bromley or Joe Daley?

You look at the huge drops in points for the Hedberg/Nilssons when they joined the NHL. I mean Hedberg became a consistent 30 goal scorer, half his WHA ave - yep HoF there.

Nilsson couldnt take a hit and didnt do much over 4-5 years.

What did you think of Andre Lacroix?

 

[Sens Rule]

Nilsson couldnt take a hit and didnt do much over 4-5 years.

1979-80 Atlanta Flames NHL 80 40 53 93
1980-81 Calgary Flames NHL 80 49 82 131
1981-82 Calgary Flames NHL 41 26 29 55
1982-83 Calgary Flames NHL 80 46 58 104
1983-84 Calgary Flames NHL 67 31 49 80 22
1984-85 Calgary Flames NHL 77 37 62 99
1985-86 Minnesota North Stars NHL 61 16 44 60
1986-87 Minnesota North Stars NHL 44 13 33 46
1986-87 Edmonton Oilers NHL 17 5 12 17

I don't know... even in the high scoring early 80's those are some pretty mean stats. 40 goals and 93 points, 49 goals and 131 points, a half season where he was on pace for about 50 goals and 110 points, 46 goals and 104 points, 31 goals and 80 points while missing 13 games, 37 goals and 99 points. That is 6 pretty amazing seasons. Where he led his team in scoring 5 of 6 seasons, finished as high as 3rd in the NHL in points, 2nd in assists and 8th in goals plus was on Lanny Mcdonald's line when he potted a crazy 66 goals.

After that he had 2 more ppg seasons and then won a cup with Edmonton getting nearly a ppg until Hextall nailed him with a 2 handed slash in the final and he retired.

 

[reckoning]

You`ve got the wrong Nilsson. It was Ulf Nilsson.

Part of the problem was that Fred Shero was a believer that the offence should be run in straight lines and never really let Hedberg and Nilsson play their style.

 

[jiggs 10]

The WHA was fun to watch, IF you saw the right teams! The Jets of that era were easily on par with best NHL teams (as evidenced by what happened later), and they beat the Soviet team that the NHL could not beat so.....

The NHL was an utterly boring league (except for the Bruins) at the time the WHA came into being. It gave players like Shakey Walton, Andre Lacroix, Buddy Cloutier and others a chace to show what REAL hockey players could do, as opposed to clowns like Andre Dupont, Don Saleski, Bobby Clarke, Jimmy Watson, and others at the time. The top 5 teams in the WHA were EASILY on par with the top NHL teams. The problem was the bottom 6 or 7 teams were not all that good, so everyone lumps the entire league together. WRONG! The Avco Cup-winning Jets were AT LEAST as good as 20 of the NHL teams of the same period. They just got shafted when the leagues merged. Had they been able to keep Hull, Hedberg, Neilsson and Shoberg, they would have been in the top half of the NHL in 1979-80. But because of the loss of Hedburg and Neilsson to the Rangers, etc. They were already screwed.

 

[BM67]

Here are the year by year WHA all-star teams. One obvious error: in 77-78 Hedberg and Cloutier are both said to be 2nd team, with nobody given credit for the 1st team at rw that I can find.

72-73
1st
Gerry Cheevers, G
JC Tremblay, D
Paul Shmyr, D
Andre Lacroix, C
Danny Lawson, RW
Bobby Hull, LW
2nd
Bernie Parent, G
Jim Dorey, D
Larry Hornung, D
Ron Ward, C
Tom Webster, RW
Gary Jarrett, LW
3rd
Al Smith, G
Rick Ley, D
Ted Green, D
Norm Beaudoin, C
Chris Bourdeleau, RW
Wayne Carleton, LW

73-74
1st
Don McLeod, G
Pat Stapleton, D
Paul Shmyr, D
Andre Lacroix, C
Gordie Howe, RW
Bobby Hull, LW
2nd
Gerry Cheevers, G
JC Tremblay, D
Al Hamilton, D
Mike Walton, C
Wayne Carleton, RW
Mark Howe, LW

74-75
1st
Ron Grahame, G
JC Tremblay, D
Kevin Morrison, D
Andre Lacroix, C
Gordie Howe, RW
Bobby Hull, LW
2nd
Gerry Cheevers, G
Barry Long, D
Poul Popiel, D
Serge Bernier, C
Anders Hedberg, RW
Marc Tardif, LW

75-76
1st
Joe Daley, G
Paul Shmyr, D
JC Tremblay, D
Ulf Nilsson, C
Anders Hedberg, RW
Marc Tardif, LW
2nd
Ron Grahame, G
Kevin Morrison, D
Pat Stapleton, D
Robbie Ftorek, C
Real Cloutier, RW
Bobby Hull, LW

76-77
1st
John Garrett, G
Ron Plumb, D
Darryl Maggs, D
Robbie Ftorek, C
Anders Hedberg, RW
Marc Tardif, LW
2nd
Joe Daley, G
Poul Popiel, D
Mark Howe, D
Ulf Nilsson, C
Real Cloutier, RW
Rick Dudley, LW

77-78
1st
Al Smith, G
Lars-Erik Sjoberg, D
Al Hamilton, D
Ulf Nilsson, C
Marc Tardif, LW
2nd
Ernie Wakely, G
Rick Ley, D
Robbie Ftorek, C
Anders Hedberg, RW
Real Cloutier, RW
Bobby Hull, LW

78-79
1st
Dave Dryden, G
Rick Ley, D
Rob Ramage, D
Robbie Ftorek, C
Real Cloutier, RW
Mark Howe, LW
2nd
Richard Brodeur, G
Dave Langevin, D
Paul Shmyr, D
Wayne Gretzky, C
Blair MacDonald, RW
Morris Lukowich, LW