Were you wondering just how bad our defense really is?

[Flowah]

Eh, i haven't paid attention to Smith since he left, but based on the last i saw of him he could easily be our #2 right now.

Which is not saying much at all, of course.

It says he knows how to skate and occasionally, make a pass.

 

[Redder Winger]

Wow, Wings would be lucky to get a 5th for him, huh? So if Ken Holland gets a 3rd will you post here to say how great of a job Kenny did and give him his rightful kudos?

Dotter, where did I say that.
I said they might settle for a 2nd and a 4th.

We'll see.

Mike Green was let go for a reason. Nobody dialed up Washington to snag him before UFA.

As a scout on the Athletic said about him, he often plays like he just doesn't give a f***.

People thought Vanek might deliver a good return. But he didn't. Not really, anyway

 

[Dotter]

2nd and a 4th has logic to it, I agree.

 

[Syckle78]

Dotter, where did I say that.
I said they might settle for a 2nd and a 4th.

We'll see.

Mike Green was let go for a reason. Nobody dialed up Washington to snag him before UFA.

As a scout on the Athletic said about him, he often plays like he just doesn't give a ****.

People thought Vanek might deliver a good return. But he didn't. Not really, anyway

That nobody tried to snag him before ufa is just you guessing. Washington was a contender. He was more valuable to them on the than a draft pick would be.

 

[Bench]

Mike Green was let go for a reason. Nobody dialed up Washington to snag him before UFA.

The reason was they didn't have the cap room, given their spoils at defense. They retained his services at the deadline because they were going on a Cup run. Obviously they thought enough of him not to trade him before the playoff run. As for trading a pick for his rights before UFA, it was reported Green didn't even bother contacting other teams in UFA. I would wager this had something to do with it. If Goligoski and Yandle could get their rights moved for picks, so could Mike Green. He was set on going to Detroit after favorable discussions with Helm in the off-season.

Mike Green isn't a premier defender in the league, like the aforementioned Goligoski, but you're painting a different version of events. This makes your underlying point seem unreliable and a little petty, honestly.

People thought Vanek might deliver a good return. But he didn't. Not really, anyway

Only the most optimistic fans here thought Vanek would get a 1st. So yes, that's technically "people" but it was not even close to a consensus. I disputed it from the outset, as did many others.

So why will Green be different? He's a defender. And he scores. Even modest defenders get nice returns at the deadline. Brendan Smith, a healthy scratch who scored 33 points in his final 172 games a Red Wing, secured a 2nd and 3rd rounder at the trade deadline.

Mike Green has 179 games on the Wings so far and has 89 points. That's 2.7 times the production of Smith. Even if Green's defense is simply beyond help, let's not pretend Smith was ever a defensive stalwart.

 

[Redder Winger]

The reason was they didn't have the cap room, given their spoils at defense. They retained his services at the deadline because they were going on a Cup run. Obviously they thought enough of him not to trade him before the playoff run. As for trading a pick for his rights before UFA, it was reported Green didn't even bother contacting other teams in UFA. I would wager this had something to do with it. If Goligoski and Yandle could get their rights moved for picks, so could Mike Green. He was set on going to Detroit after favorable discussions with Helm in the off-season.

Mike Green isn't a premier defender in the league, like the aforementioned Goligoski, but you're painting a different version of events. This makes your underlying point seem unreliable and a little petty, honestly.



Only the most optimistic fans here thought Vanek would get a 1st. So yes, that's technically "people" but it was not even close to a consensus. I disputed it from the outset, as did many others.

So why will Green be different? He's a defender. And he scores. Even modest defenders get nice returns at the deadline. Brendan Smith, a healthy scratch who scored 33 points in his final 172 games a Red Wing, secured a 2nd and 3rd rounder at the trade deadline.

Mike Green has 179 games on the Wings so far and has 89 points. That's 2.7 times the production of Smith. Even if Green's defense is simply beyond help, let's not pretend Smith was ever a defensive stalwart.

Brendan Smith got returns because the NHL is currently infatuated with swift skating defensemen.

We'll see how this shakes out. Maybe some team gets desperate and pays a king's ransome. But the more I watch Green, the more I see a guy who makes frequent brutal, game-changing mistakes.
Green does not skate well these days.

If I was a contender, I'd think long and hard about adding Mike Green - whether it cost me a third or a first.

 

[Redder Winger]

That nobody tried to snag him before ufa is just you guessing. Washington was a contender. He was more valuable to them on the than a draft pick would be.

I'm talking about trading him before UFA, after the season.

Valuable free agents are often traded for 6th or 7th round picks just for the chance to negotiate.

 

[Syckle78]

I'm talking about trading him before UFA, after the season.

Valuable free agents are often traded for 6th or 7th round picks just for the chance to negotiate.

Meh I wouldn't even say often. It happens sometimes. They might of still been trying to work something out, we have no idea. If you're going to say that green didn't have 5th or 6th round pick value we're not going to agree.

 

[Syckle78]

The reason was they didn't have the cap room, given their spoils at defense. They retained his services at the deadline because they were going on a Cup run. Obviously they thought enough of him not to trade him before the playoff run. As for trading a pick for his rights before UFA, it was reported Green didn't even bother contacting other teams in UFA. I would wager this had something to do with it. If Goligoski and Yandle could get their rights moved for picks, so could Mike Green. He was set on going to Detroit after favorable discussions with Helm in the off-season.

Mike Green isn't a premier defender in the league, like the aforementioned Goligoski, but you're painting a different version of events. This makes your underlying point seem unreliable and a little petty, honestly.



Only the most optimistic fans here thought Vanek would get a 1st. So yes, that's technically "people" but it was not even close to a consensus. I disputed it from the outset, as did many others.

So why will Green be different? He's a defender. And he scores. Even modest defenders get nice returns at the deadline. Brendan Smith, a healthy scratch who scored 33 points in his final 172 games a Red Wing, secured a 2nd and 3rd rounder at the trade deadline.

Mike Green has 179 games on the Wings so far and has 89 points. That's 2.7 times the production of Smith. Even if Green's defense is simply beyond help, let's not pretend Smith was ever a defensive stalwart.

I onky thought vanek had value because I wasn't aware of his reputation around the league. And anyway comparing a one dimensional winger with playoff disappointment track record to the value of a scoring defensemen at the tdl is apples to oranges. Defenseman are worth their weight in gold.

 

[golffuul]

Blashills system always involved activating the D and getting them really involved in offense. Honestly must suck for him to have the worst defense corps in the entire league with that system lol

So...I've been wondering about this, because wouldn't a "good" coach know to adjust the system to account for the personnel (or lack thereof)? I keep hearing Blashill talk about various things, as if somehow he is immune to the problem of having a system that actually works at either scoring goals or keeping other teams from scoring goals. It's pretty clear that we have players that aren't the most adept at stopping pucks, but geez...at least be good at putting the puck in the net. I mean if everyone is a mediocre 200ft player who doesn't score much or play good defence, that is one thing. But we have guys who have scored 25+ goals in the NHL who look like they couldn't figure out how to order a cup of coffee without peeing themselves. It's just god awful to watch players who used to be good at something, look like they can't do anything.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

We need to trade Green for a 1st at the deadline. It's a deep draft, so even if it's pick 25 or lower, that should translate into a serviceable player. If we suck this year, and suck even more next year, that's a good way to fast-track the rebuild. If we can get Boqvist this year and Jack Hughes next, we will have solid young pieces moving forward.

Our D without Green is a nightmare, but we need to be bad again next year, and than after that let's start the climb with (2017 1st rounder, Boqvist/Q.Hughes/), (2017 1st rounder we get for Green) (2018 1st rounder, J.Hughes?) (2018 1st rounder we get for Nyquist), Rasmussen, Svechnikov, Hronek, Cholowski.

We'd have 7 or 8 solid young players ready to right the ship along with Mantha, Larkin, AA (assuming he's still around) all in their prime.

We will be bad again next year with or without Green. I'd say there is a good case for keeping him.
We are dealing with professional athletes here and they don't like to loose. Loosing environments are the Nightmare of the NHL.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

The scary thing is Holland wanted to resign Smith, and there were posters here who somehow were open to or for the idea. It’s actually amazing how bad this team could be if some free agents didn’t say no to us.

As for the people saying Mike Green is a bust, he’s actually been our best defenseman since 2013, Kronwall’s last truly good year. He is not a number one d man, but he is miles better than anyone else we have, and by a huge margin. Hilariously enough, big E is probably our second



I think his system actually makea some of our D look worse than they are.

Dekeyser went from a solid top 4 guy to hot garbage the minute Blash came in.

Cant agree with Big E because of his Brenden smith like turnovers and lack of foot speed. I agree completely with Mike Green and if the guy is willing to a sign a resonable extention bring him back.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Dekeyser is the worst dmen in his salary range in the league

The rest is a collection of bums

Ya but DK has one of the best sticks in the game

 

[Reddwit]

The data actually suggests Green is ok defensively. Problem with Green is his defensive gaffs are very noticeable. Not surprising given that he shoulders the load offensively on the back-end.

As for him sucking in Washington, well so did Shattenkirk. And Holden, Shattenkirk and Smith at times recently have all looked better in NYR than their previous stops. Systems matter. Roles matter.

 

[Redder Winger]

I onky thought vanek had value because I wasn't aware of his reputation around the league. And anyway comparing a one dimensional winger with playoff disappointment track record to the value of a scoring defensemen at the tdl is apples to oranges. Defenseman are worth their weight in gold.

How do you explain Cody Franson?

 

[Henkka]

I know this isn't really a controversial opinion, but I think our offense from defensemen is bad. "How bad is it?" Well I did some stat digging for details and it's even worse than you might guess if you were purposely exaggerating for comic effect.

Last year, our leading point scoring defensemen were 1: Green (36p) and 2: Jensen (13p). Okay Kronwall was tied with Jensen but Jensen did it in fewer games so.

Among the entire NHL, there were 37 defensemen with more points than Green. Okay, that's bad, but it's not comically bad.

Among the entire NHL, there were 130 defensemen (!!!) with more points than Jensen.

This is the fun part: You could take all the players who had more points than our 2nd leading defenseman, put 4 of them on every single team in the NHL, and still have 6 guys left over.

Every single team had a MINIMUM of 3 defensemen with at least the same amount of points as Jensen. If NJD's #3 guy had one more point I would have said "with more points than Jensen". And that includes teams like AZ and Lolorado even though they had way fewer goals than us and way fewer points in the standings.

Again, I realize the badness isn't really news to anybody. It just blows my mind a little when I add context and perspective to clarify just how bad is bad. This year we're actually doing a little better with Green at #18 and Kronwall at #87, but when you take into account that Kronwall isn't getting any better and Green is probably going to get traded....

Ooo, also, side note, our big free agent signing who was brought in to stabilize the D has 2 whole points so far.

If I were to make an overall point to make this thread less of a waste of time, it would be this: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD stop getting excited about trading Green. I strongly feel that without Green, we will literally be playing 3v5 constantly. If you want any of our young forwards to develop offensive instincts, they need SOMEONE on the backend that they can make plays with...

2013 draft:
RD Marc McNulty
LD Mitchell Wheaton

2012 draft
D/F Mike McKee
LD James DeHaas

2011:
RD Ryan Sproul
LD Xavier Ouellet
LD Mattias Bäckman
LD Richard Nedomlel
RD Alexey Marchenko

2010 draft:
D/F Ben Marshall

2009 draft:
LD Gleason Fournier
RD Nick Jensen
LD Adam Almqvist

2008 draft:
RD Max NiCastro

2007 draft:
LD Brendan Smith
LD Bryan Rufenach

2006 draft:
RD Logan Pyett

2005:
LD Jakub Kindl
D Jeff May
RD Juho Mielonen
D Bretton Stamler

2004:
LD Sergei Kolosov
D Nils Bäakström


That's the CV from Jim Nill as assistant GM and Joey McDonell as scouting director drafting defencemen. Those guys should now be our core, they are now in prime age. Youngest are 22-year old and oldest 31-year-old.

Horrible record. I could bet it's the worst in NHL from that era.

***

We can only wait if Tyler Wright with his scouting group and scout management can get better results from 2014 draft and so on.

 

[jkutswings]

2013 draft:
RD Marc McNulty
LD Mitchell Wheaton

2012 draft
D/F Mike McKee
LD James DeHaas

2011:
RD Ryan Sproul
LD Xavier Ouellet
LD Mattias Bäckman
LD Richard Nedomlel
RD Alexey Marchenko

2010 draft:
D/F Ben Marshall

2009 draft:
LD Gleason Fournier
RD Nick Jensen
LD Adam Almqvist

2008 draft:
RD Max NiCastro

2007 draft:
LD Brendan Smith
LD Bryan Rufenach

2006 draft:
RD Logan Pyett

2005:
LD Jakub Kindl
D Jeff May
RD Juho Mielonen
D Bretton Stamler

2004:
LD Sergei Kolosov
D Nils Bäakström


That's the CV from Jim Nill as assistant GM and Joey McDonell as scouting director drafting defencemen. Those guys should now be our core, they are now in prime age. Youngest are 22-year old and oldest 31-year-old.

Horrible record. I could bet it's the worst in NHL from that era.

***

We can only wait if Tyler Wright with his scouting group and scout management can get better results from 2014 draft and so on.

And in 7 of those 10 years, they only drafted 2 or fewer defensemen to begin with. They lost the big picture for awhile; I hope future endeavors do not do the same.

 

[Winger98]

And in 7 of those 10 years, they only drafted 2 or fewer defensemen to begin with. They lost the big picture for awhile; I hope future endeavors do not do the same.

only 6 of those 23 were drafted in the third round or higher, and Nicastro & Fournier stretch that a bit being picks in the 90s. If we'd spent more of those picks on D, though, maybe we don't hit on guys like Franzen, Tatar, Gator, etc. You give to get, and we gave on the backend to up our chances at drafting forwards.

What really hurt was not hitting big on Kindl and/or Smith.

 

[Beltv]

I think from 05-08 and even 09 you could go heavy on F's because of who we had playing D for us. After that I don't think there is any excuse.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

It says he knows how to skate and occasionally, make a pass.

Hey now, our defense makes plenty of passes that result in goals.

It’s just they’re generally to the other team

 

[Pavels Dog]

And in 7 of those 10 years, they only drafted 2 or fewer defensemen to begin with. They lost the big picture for awhile; I hope future endeavors do not do the same.

68 skater picks, 23 D. Statistically not really too few D. Could have used some higher picks on D, but really it’s just the likely statistical outcome of drafting late and not having a ton of extra picks. Something’s gotta give.

 

[Winger98]

I think from 05-08 and even 09 you could go heavy on F's because of who we had playing D for us. After that I don't think there is any excuse.

They also spent two first rounders on D in that time frame. They had to be banking on at least one of Kindl/Smith being far more than they ended up being.

 

[TheOtherOne]

68 skater picks, 23 D. Statistically not really too few D. Could have used some higher picks on D, but really it’s just the likely statistical outcome of drafting late and not having a ton of extra picks. Something’s gotta give.

True. It's not always that someone f***ed up. Sometimes the universe just hates you. Sometimes the universe is punishing you for drafting Nick Lidström.