GDT: WDSF Game 6 Golden Knights @ Wild 6pm NBCSN + ATTSNRM etc.

[azvgk]

I think the only way out of this conundrum is sadly to move Flower back to Pittsburgh. They can't come back with Jarry again and I don't think Lehner is movable, not because he's not worth the contract, but it's just too much money to move with a lack of landing spots.

You move out Fleury and Marchessault and you have some wiggle room to re-sign Amart and go after Eichel.

I'm not sure Eichel isn't going to be another albatross contract at 10 million due to injuries. And the only line really performing is the Karlsson-Marchy-SMith line, they're consistently dangerous, if the other lines could do anything they'd be even better.

Next couple of years we have some new blood coming on ELC's, that might help get us out of cap hell. I know prospects are just that, prospects, but Krebs really looks to have 1 or 2 C potential.

 

[willy702]

Hard to win when your third and fourth lines are completely irrelevant and couldn't score (except Roy once in awhile) into an open net. When we had Pacioretty back and Nosek and Tuch on the third line was completely different.

Win or lose on Friday (I suspect we'll win) we're not beating Avalanche with this many non-factors.

As far as the cap goes, we have a number of very good contracts along with the bad ones, so I think it's probably a wash. I'm not a big Lehner fan, so I don't know what we'll do next year about that - I still think Fleury has a lot of years left so if there is a market for Lehner, I'd try to trade him, which might be difficult due to the expansion draft flooding the market with goalies.

The first point is what a lot of us have been saying since year 2. Having the heavy no goals fourth line was great when the team was just expansion players and draft picks, but makes no sense now. The third line has always been held back by something, mostly Eakin until he was sent away, but always feels underwhelming for what Tuch should be playing with. If the Knights had focused on building more depth on the bottom six instead of fantasizing about what single high priced to be free agents could do they could beat top teams with depth. Instead middling teams like the Wild take it to the bottom six.

It's just so disappointing what's happened really since the first trade deadline. The Tatar trade started the downward path. The team was well constructed already with tons of cap space and some very intriguing prospects. What McPhee did before the start of the first season was amazing, but he's done little positive after that. Even the Stone trade might have been unnecessary, he might have signed for just as much after that season.

 

[azvgk]

I think the only way out of this conundrum is sadly to move Flower back to Pittsburgh. They can't come back with Jarry again and I don't think Lehner is movable, not because he's not worth the contract, but it's just too much money to move with a lack of landing spots.

You move out Fleury and Marchessault and you have some wiggle room to re-sign Amart and go after Eichel.

Also, Pittsburgh may not move Jarry. I think their time as a contender is over. They think they only need to reload, I doubt that's reality. Crosby and Malkin are really starting to slow, particularly Malkin due to injury and age, and they don't have much else.

 

[IceNeophyte]

So what you're saying is the players actually have to perform? No way. It's almost like it's not Deboer's fault we're in this position.

This forum when we lose. PDB SUCKS!

This forum when we win. WOOO Good job winning in spite of PDB.

My bone with Debore is only our pathetic power play.

 

[The Duck Knight]

I'm not sure Eichel isn't going to be another albatross contract at 10 million due to injuries. And the only line really performing is the Karlsson-Marchy-SMith line, they're consistently dangerous, if the other lines could do anything they'd be even better.

Next couple of years we have some new blood coming on ELC's, that might help get us out of cap hell. I know prospects are just that, prospects, but Krebs really looks to have 1 or 2 C potential.

The Misfit line isn't really performing though. They're getting chances I guess but Stone and Tuch have had better results in this series which is really all that matters. This team is already all in so I think you have to keep swinging for the fences rather than adjusting course the other direction. Do everything you can do to get a 1C, whether that's Eichel or someone else, preferably without Tuch or Krebs going out.

 

[The Duck Knight]

My bone with Debore is only our pathetic power play.

You and I are in agreement then. PDB's lapdog Spott needs to disappear.

 

[willy702]

You and I are in agreement then. PDB's lapdog Spott needs to disappear.

Good chance Spott takes the fall and is gone if they don't suddenly turn around their fortunes, but why would you expect someone else to make a difference? PDB will make the call on who replaces him and it will be some other loyal guy who implements what PDB wants as well.

 

[azvgk]

The Misfit line isn't really performing though. They're getting chances I guess but Stone and Tuch have had better results in this series which is really all that matters. This team is already all in so I think you have to keep swinging for the fences rather than adjusting course the other direction. Do everything you can do to get a 1C, whether that's Eichel or someone else, preferably without Tuch or Krebs going out.

Not sure a 1C really solves the problem of plugs on the third and fourth line. We're probably not going to get a 1C without moving guys like Tuch or Krebs, and the loss of their speed will really set us back.

People sometimes forget we're just in our 4th year, and the last year has been greatly affected by the pandemic. I like to think we have a strong enough organization willing to always spend to the cap, and LV is a destination city, I'd prefer to just continue to build. Team now has size, speed, and goaltending. Develop some kids with scoring ability.

I absolutely agree the power play sucks though.

 

[The Duck Knight]

Not sure a 1C really solves the problem of plugs on the third and fourth line. We're probably not going to get a 1C without moving guys like Tuch or Krebs, and the loss of their speed will really set us back.

People sometimes forget we're just in our 4th year, and the last year has been greatly affected by the pandemic. I like to think we have a strong enough organization willing to always spend to the cap, and LV is a destination city, I'd prefer to just continue to build. Team now has size, speed, and goaltending. Develop some kids with scoring ability.

I absolutely agree the power play sucks though.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm just looking at it through the lens of how the front office seems to want to run it. The depth issue is as much of a idealogical issue as a cap issue IMO. They place way too much importance on physical play. They could have given some games this year to guys that can actually play hockey at the expense of Kolesar/Reaves, but they chose not to. If you could swing Eichel for say Marchessault/Hague/Glass/2 1sts/any prospect not named Krebs. The Eichel injury is concerning enough I'd have a hard time doing Tuch and Krebs. Find a way to move Reaves and a goalie and you could actually have 3 potent scoring lines with cap flexibility now and in the future.

Krebs-Eichel-Tuch
Pacioretty-Stephenson-Stone
Smith-Karlsson-Dugan/cheap UFA

 

[Vegan Knight]

Hard to win when your third and fourth lines are completely irrelevant and couldn't score (except Roy once in awhile) into an open net. When we had Pacioretty back and Nosek and Tuch on the third line was completely different.

Win or lose on Friday (I suspect we'll win) we're not beating Avalanche with this many non-factors.

As far as the cap goes, we have a number of very good contracts along with the bad ones, so I think it's probably a wash. I'm not a big Lehner fan, so I don't know what we'll do next year about that - I still think Fleury has a lot of years left so if there is a market for Lehner, I'd try to trade him, which might be difficult due to the expansion draft flooding the market with goalies.

Fleury benefitted from ten months rest with only four games in between heading into this season, and a planking system that mitigated the compressed schedule apart from the six weeks Lehner was injured.

And we played in a shit tier division, especially offensively, and had a solid defensive team. Career years happen when the stars align. He will be 37 and you don't put all your hopes on that to keep your window open another four or five years.

They would trade Fleury to Pittsburgh to get out of the two goalie cap hit, if they wanted to, which they probably don't. Some bottom tier team would get a 2nd from Pittsburgh to hold half or 40% of his cap and they would trade Jarry to someone else for nothing and Vegas would sign a Raanta or Bernier for around 2 million.

It could be a good move for them to try to extend their window with Crosby and Malkin one more season, but is probably futile. But they have to try something when they have a top five forward ever in the twilight of his career.

We probably don't unless they make a play for a 1C.

 

[Hideki N]

Would it be nice to have a 1C? Sure. Are we losing this series because we don't have one? Given that the Wild have shit all at center after Eriksson Ek I'd say no.

True statement. Anyone following the Golden Knights and complaining about their center situation should look at the Wild center situation. Eriksson Ek is their best center but he's a defensive Selke type whose skill set is best suited as an elite 3rd line center to face off against opposing top lines. As he is, he's currently being used on the PK and not on the PP.

Past him, they've got Victor F***ing Rask centering their superstar Kaprizov, but Rask shouldn't even be centering an NHL roster, much less 1C. (They traded Niederreiter for him!) Sure, Rask has a solid shot and some decent offensive instincts but he can't skate, catch a pass or defend in transition. And their 2C is Ryan Hartman, whose best suited as a bottom 6 grinder. He does have some speed and skill upside, which is the reason why he's being elevated up to centering Fiala's line. There's a general lack of elite speed among Wild forwards outside Fiala, so Hartman is really the only center with enough north-south speed and skill to keep up with Fiala.

Then there's Nick Bjugstad, Nick Bonino and Nico Sturm. Pick your Nick but they're all bottom 6 grinding centers. Bonino's the only center that's been able to win a f***ing draw for the Wild, and so much so that he's been forced into PP1 duty even though he's ideally not who you'd want on the power play. Sturm's really the only other forward who has anything resembling elite speed on the Wild, when he gets his feet going. And Bjugstad...he and Hartman are the only right shot forwards on the Wild roster. And he's tall and from Minnesota.

 

[Vegas07]

.

 

[Vegan Knight]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm just looking at it through the lens of how the front office seems to want to run it. The depth issue is as much of a idealogical issue as a cap issue IMO. They place way too much importance on physical play. They could have given some games this year to guys that can actually play hockey at the expense of Kolesar/Reaves, but they chose not to. If you could swing Eichel for say Marchessault/Hague/Glass/2 1sts/any prospect not named Krebs. The Eichel injury is concerning enough I'd have a hard time doing Tuch and Krebs. Find a way to move Reaves and a goalie and you could actually have 3 potent scoring lines with cap flexibility now and in the future.

Krebs-Eichel-Tuch
Pacioretty-Stephenson-Stone
Smith-Karlsson-Dugan/cheap UFA

I don't see a way we keep both Krebs and Tuch in an Eichel deal. They would certainly demand one.

I could see Marchessault, Krebs, Hague, 1st, 2nd being an offer. They don't have a need for Marchessault right now but if they retain 1 million on him I'm sure they pick up another 1st and more from a contender looking to add a 30 goal, 60 point winger at 4M for three seasons who would still be only 33 at the end of it.

That would be right near the four 1st round asset ask.

1st=1st
Krebs=1st
Marchessault via a trade=1st, maybe more
Hague and a 2nd=1st

We could still roll three lines but Glass/Dugan would have to be the two young players. I think it would be fine, Glass works on his skating in the offseason and comes back with more confidence. Then we make sure to play him, Dugan and Stephenson on different lines so they have enough support from veteran top six caliber linemates to put them in the best position to succeed.

The fourth line of Carrier-Roy-Kolesar even looks more solid as a threat with Roy on it and gives another player capable of playing up in the top nine.

 

[CupInSIX]

Understandably, there's a lot of overreactions in this thread. I don't think this team needs to make more than 2 major ON ICE personnel changes in the offseason (with subsequent cap moves). When fully healthy, the D & 3rd line is fine but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Holden's cap hit in exchange for helping a team with expansion protection problems.

Cap flexibility, or rather, better use of the cap, was their biggest hurdle this season. They were in deep shit when they became a Nosek injury from having terrible depth at C - and that's exactly what happened.

The best thing they can do for Glass is get him lean and at least a little bit faster in the offseason (just so long as he's not as slow as Reaves) then play him 20 minutes a night in the AHL for the first 2 months. He did look a little less slow last night. They need young, hungry guys that will force them to make difficult lineup decisions.

There isn't any need to trade any of the Misfits (yet). Just move Karlsson up and move Stephenson down (immediately).


Or just trade for Eichel because they've needed a true 1C and another elite forward.

 

[willy702]

Fleury benefitted from ten months rest with only four games in between heading into this season, and a planking system that mitigated the compressed schedule apart from the six weeks Lehner was injured.

And we played in a shit tier division, especially offensively, and had a solid defensive team. Career years happen when the stars align. He will be 37 and you don't put all your hopes on that to keep your window open another four or five years.

They would trade Fleury to Pittsburgh to get out of the two goalie cap hit, if they wanted to, which they probably don't. Some bottom tier team would get a 2nd from Pittsburgh to hold half or 40% of his cap and they would trade Jarry to someone else for nothing and Vegas would sign a Raanta or Bernier for around 2 million.

It could be a good move for them to try to extend their window with Crosby and Malkin one more season, but is probably futile. But they have to try something when they have a top five forward ever in the twilight of his career.

We probably don't unless they make a play for a 1C.

The Pens are a smart organization though that realized this day was coming. They won a tough division despite not getting much from Malkin. Crosby is still playing elite hockey and will for a little longer. They built a good team to support their aging core and just were undone by a lack of quality goaltending in the playoffs, but they weren't so shortsighted to say we're going 100% all in and are ready to suck when these guys are over the hill like the Kings or Blackhawks. They probably aren't real Cup contenders, but they are a likely playoff team for the foreseeable future and that's what a smart management team aims for because you never know when things fall into place. Malkin and Letang's contracts go away after next year and they probably are perfectly timed for them to either get big discounts or let them walk when their abilities start to really slide. MAF really makes a lot of sense for them to reset the internal search for the next starting goalie.

Now look at the Knights, Foley's afraid he'll pass before that things falling into place wait ends. Keep loading up contracts and pray you get a Letang ending instead of a Seabrook/Keith ending for Petro. But to make it work you gotta play some youth. A few pieces on defense have worked out for the roles they were needed for, but the unwillingness to use the bottom six as a training ground for younger players is going to bite this team in the rear end. Even at cheaper contracts, the lowest tier veterans on the team are taking up a slot that could be used to develop guys like Glass or Sikura this year, Dugan and Elvenes next year. Even if you don't trust them to be stars, could they really be contributing less than Reaves or Kolesar, or even a guy like Roy? Those guys don't develop the same playing in Henderson or on the taxi squad and then being dropped into the lineup on random nights. I can't even say who is to blame for this, PDB doesn't seem to like using young guys, but he's probably supported in that thinking by McPhee and Foley. McCrimmon may just be the yes man agreeing to this strategy for now, but man he must be a bit peeved that in just a few years he's created a pretty solid pipeline of players through the draft and UDFAs, especially if you include the guy McPhee traded away to Montreal.

 

[Pia8988]

Understandably, there's a lot of overreactions in this thread. I don't think this team needs to make more than 2 major ON ICE personnel changes in the offseason (with subsequent cap moves). When fully healthy, the D & 3rd line is fine but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Holden's cap hit in exchange for helping a team with expansion protection problems.

Cap flexibility, or rather, better use of the cap, was their biggest hurdle this season. They were in deep shit when they became a Nosek injury from having terrible depth at C - and that's exactly what happened.

The best thing they can do for Glass is get him lean and at least a little bit faster in the offseason (just so long as he's not as slow as Reaves) then play him 20 minutes a night in the AHL for the first 2 months. He did look a little less slow last night. They need young, hungry guys that will force them to make difficult lineup decisions.

There isn't any need to trade any of the Misfits (yet). Just move Karlsson up and move Stephenson down (immediately).


Or just trade for Eichel because they've needed a true 1C and another elite forward.

I think they just need a new approach. Too often sustained pressure is just pushing hte puck up top and having one of the dmen spray it at the goalie.

These two images perfectly encapsulate the VGK #1 issue.

1st period last night:

Results for the whole game:

DeBoer and by extension the Knights time and time again are just all too happy to settle from shots from low scoring areas.

 

[willy702]

I think they just need a new approach. Too often sustained pressure is just pushing hte puck up top and having one of the dmen spray it at the goalie.

These two images perfectly encapsulate the VGK #1 issue.

1st period last night:

Results for the whole game:

DeBoer and by extension the Knights time and time again are just all too happy to settle from shots from low scoring areas.

Exactly, its been that way all of PDB's career. The Sharks were the same way except they had Pavelski and Couture as dedicated guys who would go to the net for tough goals, as well as set screens and tip shots. The Knights so rarely do that. Those shots from the wrong side of the face off circles are a really poor choice, those are almost zero xG because they are hard to tip into the net and easy to steer out of danger. About only time they amount to a goal is when you hit them absolutely perfect into a corner that the goalie isn't covering.

 

[Pia8988]

Exactly, its been that way all of PDB's career. The Sharks were the same way except they had Pavelski and Couture as dedicated guys who would go to the net for tough goals, as well as set screens and tip shots. The Knights so rarely do that. Those shots from the wrong side of the face off circles are a really poor choice, those are almost zero xG because they are hard to tip into the net and easy to steer out of danger. About only time they amount to a goal is when you hit them absolutely perfect into a corner that the goalie isn't covering.

The knights just don't really have people that are great at tipping pucks in. The team is most successful off the rush as are most teams, but their ability to turn sustained pressure into offense is absolute ass. Probably another reason the PP is so bad.

 

[willy702]

The knights just don't really have people that are great at tipping pucks in. The team is most successful off the rush as are most teams, but their ability to turn sustained pressure into offense is absolute ass. Probably another reason the PP is so bad.

You'd think they would work on that more with Tuch and Glass, both are pretty fearless about offering some net front presence. Karlsson for all the good things he brings just doesn't go to the net enough and whoever plays center with Stone's line just seems to lay back to the perimeter and let Stone do the playmaking.

Its like a day doesn't go by when we aren't reminded of the deep faults in the PDB system. Maybe a decade or two ago when the goalies weren't nearly as good the idea of lots of shots on net worked, but these days goalies are way too good to get beaten from distance and are amazingly good at controlling rebounds.

 

[Pia8988]

You'd think they would work on that more with Tuch and Glass, both are pretty fearless about offering some net front presence. Karlsson for all the good things he brings just doesn't go to the net enough and whoever plays center with Stone's line just seems to lay back to the perimeter and let Stone do the playmaking.

Its like a day doesn't go by when we aren't reminded of the deep faults in the PDB system. Maybe a decade or two ago when the goalies weren't nearly as good the idea of lots of shots on net worked, but these days goalies are way too good to get beaten from distance and are amazingly good at controlling rebounds.

Glass led the team in PP goals largely because he was good in front on the net, but I wouldn't call that the strength of any VGK forward and therein lies the biggest issue. Instead of playing to the strengths of his players, he expects them to all morph into what he wants. Signs of a bad coach.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Understandably, there's a lot of overreactions in this thread. I don't think this team needs to make more than 2 major ON ICE personnel changes in the offseason (with subsequent cap moves). When fully healthy, the D & 3rd line is fine but I wouldn't be opposed to moving Holden's cap hit in exchange for helping a team with expansion protection problems.

Cap flexibility, or rather, better use of the cap, was their biggest hurdle this season. They were in deep shit when they became a Nosek injury from having terrible depth at C - and that's exactly what happened.

The best thing they can do for Glass is get him lean and at least a little bit faster in the offseason (just so long as he's not as slow as Reaves) then play him 20 minutes a night in the AHL for the first 2 months. He did look a little less slow last night. They need young, hungry guys that will force them to make difficult lineup decisions.

There isn't any need to trade any of the Misfits (yet). Just move Karlsson up and move Stephenson down (immediately).


Or just trade for Eichel because they've needed a true 1C and another elite forward.

Smith is a trade possibility because it's the last year of his deal and they are unlikely to re-sign unless everything falls into place for it. So they can get something in a trade while finally giving our young players that we drafted four years ago a chance with the big club while saving cap space. Possibly to try to re-sign Martinez.

Smith is a very good two way winger but we have a lot of two way forwards. He was on pace for 37 points in an 82 game schedule even with our putrid division. That inaugural line has had their share of dry spells the past three seasons.

Although I will say that Smith has been a bigger playoff performer than any forward on the team apart from Stone. If you include the first year, he's been pretty equal to Stone.

 

[CupInSIX]

Smith is a trade possibility because it's the last year of his deal and they are unlikely to re-sign unless everything falls into place for it. So they can get something in a trade while finally giving our young players that we drafted four years ago a chance with the big club while saving cap space. Possibly to try to re-sign Martinez.

Smith is a very good two way winger but we have a lot of two way forwards. He was on pace for 37 points in an 82 game schedule even with our putrid division. That inaugural line has had their share of dry spells the past three seasons.

Although I will say that Smith has been a bigger playoff performer than any forward on the team apart from Stone. If you include the first year, he's been pretty equal to Stone.

I don't think they could ever have too many two way forwards the way this team is built. Smith is a counter balance to Marchessault (although Marchy's defensive game has improved). Patches' 7m comes off the books in 2 years as well, and he'll probably be looking for at least 6m. Flower's 7m is gone in a year too. (Unfortunately) They won't have any major RFA contracts aside from Whitecloud & Krebs. They shouldn't have problems re-signing Smith to a reasonable contract. He's over 30 but has no significant injury history or loss of speed.

Plus next season is his 'on' year so he'll be really good again.

Although as I said I wouldn't be opposed to shaking up that line. Either Karlsson on the top line or Tuch in Smith's spot.