Wayne Gretzky overrated

[whcanuck]

He's most certainly the most dominant scorer the game has ever seen, I don't think there's much disputing that. His passing skills and ability to read the game are on another planet and the guy played big in big games. Having said that, there are many players that have skated better, shot harder and quicker and even guys that had passing skills close to his level. But on the other side of that, Gretz was deceptively fast, his shots were very accurate (especially his slapshot) and although he may not have embarrassed guys with his puck skills, he always knew how to keep it on his stick and away from his opponents. So although he wasn't a perfect hockey player in terms of skill set (and defense wasn't really his thing, but he likely wasn't paid to think about defense too much), he's about as close as you can get to a perfect scorer, and scoring is the name of the game.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

Don't get me wrong, I think Gretzky was a genius and one of the best ever, I just think that his numbers put him in a category that sounds like he was much better than anyone else that ever played the game, and that's just not the case and what makes him overrated in my opinion. I think he had the best career from start to end, but for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak. I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL, Fuhr and Smith were the 2 best (they were good but not on the level of the best goalies of the 90's), and Roy is more associated with the 90's.

I am starting this thread because when people talk about hockey it is like it is a undisputable truth that Gretzky was the best ever, when in fact other guys have a argument for the GOAT claim.

There was a point where gretzky and orr dominated the game more than anyone else... but not after either guy was 30.

Orr was retired by injuries before he slowed down... gretzky kept playing 7 or so more years

In grerzkys later career he was very overrated because he only exceled at playmaking

Lets remember on his best day he was never physical... didnt really play great defense... but at least he scored goals, led his team to success, made teammates better

Im the final 6-7 years you could argue he wasnt even the best playmaker...and the rest of his game wasnt special.

As for howes claim... he lasted a long time but was he ever clearly the best player at any moment? I think maurice richard and bobby hull fans say its a tossup

As for mario lemiexs claim... i feel his raw skills were best in hustory, but he didnt have the drive to maximize his performance these other 3 had

Mario and bobby orr stayed great until they retired and were still considered the best player in league at that time on merit

Gretzky is overrated because he too was still being called best player in league at his time of retirement when i wouldnt put him top 25

In his first 7-8 years though... no one dominated like gretzky did unless its orr

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There was a point where gretzky and orr dominated the game more than anyone else... but not after either guy was 30.

Orr was retired by injuries before he slowed down... gretzky kept playing 7 or so more years

In grerzkys later career he was very overrated because he only exceled at playmaking

Lets remember on his best day he was never physical... didnt really play great defense... but at least he scored goals, led his team to success, made teammates better

Im the final 6-7 years you could argue he wasnt even the best playmaker...and the rest of his game wasnt special.

As for howes claim... he lasted a long time but was he ever clearly the best player at any moment? I think maurice richard and bobby hull fans say its a tossup

As for mario lemiexs claim... i feel his raw skills were best in hustory, but he didnt have the drive to maximize his performance these other 3 had

Mario and bobby orr stayed great until they retired and were still considered the best player in league at that time on merit

Gretzky is overrated because he too was still being called best player in league at his time of retirement when i wouldnt put him top 25

In his first 7-8 years though... no one dominated like gretzky did unless its orr

"As for howes claim... he lasted a long time but was he ever clearly the best player at any moment?"

Howe won 4 straight scoring tittles by margins larger than anyone but Gretzky.

Yes, he was clearly the best player for quite awhile.

 

[ps241]

Rank	Player	Years	PTS
1.	Wayne Gretzky*	1979-99	2857
2.	Jaromir Jagr	1990-18	1921
3.	Mark Messier*	1979-04	1887
4.	Gordie Howe*	1946-80	1850
5.	Ron Francis*	1981-04	1798
6.	Marcel Dionne*	1971-89	1771
7.	Steve Yzerman*	1983-06	1755
8.	Mario Lemieux*	1984-06	1723
9.	Joe Sakic*	1988-09	1641
10.	Phil Esposito*	1963-81	1590

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

One of these things just doesn't fit. Not sure if there is another pro sport that has such a large anomaly as far as dominance by the top guy compared to the rest of the field?

I don't believe he is overrated.

 

[Panthera]

As for howes claim... he lasted a long time but was he ever clearly the best player at any moment? I think maurice richard and bobby hull fans say its a tossup

What do you call it when a guy scores 95 points, his linemate scores 71, and the third highest scoring player, Maurice Richard, scores 61?

You call it being clearly the best player

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

What do you call it when a guy scores 95 points, his linemate scores 71, and the third highest scoring player, Maurice Richard, scores 61?

You call it being clearly the best player

i guess eric lindros had a dominant year like that too... a few guys did

but does it settle the debate this guy is number 1?

howe was often second fiddle as far as media and fan opinion went even in his best seasons... but eventually he was last man standing. his rep grew and grew after his glory years because of career numbers. he never captured the rep of orr or gretzky as a kid the way they did... he captured his rep as an old man

still... remarkable career... most lengthy career ever... a wonder

but of the 4 players with the most defendable claim to goat... to me, howes is the most flawed. he was the least recognized guy in his prime of these 4 contenders

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i guess eric lindros had a dominant year like that too... a few guys did

but does it settle the debate this guy is number 1?

howe was often second fiddle as far as media and fan opinion went even in his best seasons... but eventually he was last man standing. his rep grew and grew after his glory years because of career numbers. he never captured the rep of orr or gretzky as a kid the way they did... he captured his rep as an old man

still... remarkable career... most lengthy career ever... a wonder

but of the 4 players with the most defendable claim to goat... to me, howes is the most flawed. he was the least recognized guy in his prime of these 4 contenders

Are you talking about Mr. Hockey?

Top 5 in scoring for 20 seasons?

21 times post season all-star (12 firsts, 9 seconds)?

6 time Art Ross and 6 time Hart Trophy winner?

How exactly is Howe the most flawed of the Big Four?

And no, Eric Lindros never had a year like that. Never even led the league in scoring.

At least glace at Howe's record, please.

 

[whatname]

There was a point where gretzky and orr dominated the game more than anyone else... but not after either guy was 30.

Orr was retired by injuries before he slowed down... gretzky kept playing 7 or so more years

In grerzkys later career he was very overrated because he only exceled at playmaking

Lets remember on his best day he was never physical... didnt really play great defense... but at least he scored goals, led his team to success, made teammates better

Im the final 6-7 years you could argue he wasnt even the best playmaker...and the rest of his game wasnt special.

As for howes claim... he lasted a long time but was he ever clearly the best player at any moment? I think maurice richard and bobby hull fans say its a tossup

As for mario lemiexs claim... i feel his raw skills were best in hustory, but he didnt have the drive to maximize his performance these other 3 had

Mario and bobby orr stayed great until they retired and were still considered the best player in league at that time on merit

Gretzky is overrated because he too was still being called best player in league at his time of retirement when i wouldnt put him top 25

In his first 7-8 years though... no one dominated like gretzky did unless its orr

I don't recall anyone putting Gretzky ahead of Jagr or Forsberg in 1998-99.

 

[Kunta Kinte]

The thing I find the most admirable about Gretzky is how he managed to be the best, all the time.

To make a parallel look at Usain Bolt. Bolt is amazing because of his insane world records. But even moreso - at every single olympics, he won the gold, everytime. Never faltered.

Gretzky is similar. In every season he won the Ross (till he slowed/Lemieux peaked) and also Hart.
Much moreso - in every playoff run he was also the leading scorer.
In every international tournament? Yep - also leading scorer.

He's a scorer and he always was the top scorer without fail. Which is commendable.

Orr and Lemieux had more ups and downs in my opinion (even health aside).

That guys gets it.

 

[MadLuke]

but eventually he was last man standing. his rep grew and grew after his glory years because of career numbers.

That sound like a vast underestimate of is peak, he won Art Ross above the competition with a bigger advance than anyone not name Wayne Gretzky no ?

Is Nickname was litteraly Mr.Hockey.

 

[member 290103]

Don't get me wrong, I think Gretzky was a genius and one of the best ever, I just think that his numbers put him in a category that sounds like he was much better than anyone else that ever played the game, and that's just not the case and what makes him overrated in my opinion. I think he had the best career from start to end, but for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak. I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL, Fuhr and Smith were the 2 best (they were good but not on the level of the best goalies of the 90's), and Roy is more associated with the 90's.

I am starting this thread because when people talk about hockey it is like it is a undisputable truth that Gretzky was the best ever, when in fact other guys have a argument for the GOAT claim.

No. He was better than everyone ever was at his peak. This thread is dumb.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I don't recall anyone putting Gretzky ahead of Jagr or Forsberg in 1998-99.

You maybe werent paying attention?

 

[The Panther]

No doubt Gretzky was getting a bit washed-up by 1998-99, his last season (although he still had 55 points in 54 games and was leading the Rangers handily).

But look what he did in the last 40 games of the previous season, from Jan. 3rd 1998 to April 18th 1998:
1. Jagr - 55 points
2. Gretzky - 54 points
3. Palffy - 50 points
4. Allison - 43 points
5. Turgeon - 43 points

Forsberg, btw, had only 40 points in this period, but in only 34 games. That's projects to 47 in 40, well behind Gretzky's pace. (Gretzky at this point is 37 years old, and on a .415 team with one of the worst offenses in the League.)


That's the thing with Wayne and Mario after they were 30 or 31. We can find stretches of 20 or maybe even 40 games where they got back to almost their prior prime form, but it was hard for them -- like any forward (except maybe Howe) -- to score as consistently as before that.

Gretzky was still lights-out in the 1993 playoffs, much of 1993-94 -- especially the first half of the season (he was on a 150-point pace at mid-season), the first 19 games of 1995-96, the first 36 games of 1996-97 (leading the League in scoring at late as Dec. 17th), the 1997 playoffs, and, considering his age, the back-half of 1997-98, although by then he couldn't score like of old.

Mario was unstoppable up to his 31st birthday (which was the start of the 1996-97 season). But he dropped about 40-50 points off his prior season's pace that year (partly due to the Pens scoring 35 fewer PP goals). Still, from Dec.17th to Jan.26th, he suddenly put up 42 points in 17 games. Three-and-a-half years later, when he came out of retirement, he famously scored 76 points in 43 games... but then already looked gassed in the playoffs. Similarly, two seasons later (2002-03), he put up 44 points in the first 21 games, but then really fell off towards the end (18 points in the final 23 games).

We should bear in mind, then, how incredible it has traditionally been for any high-scoring player to maintain his consistent, elite touch past age 30 or 31, when even the two most talented players ever couldn't really do so.

 

[Homesick]

In 1985-86 Wayne Gretzky won the scoring race by 74 f***ing points.
Nobody has ever been that dominant

 

[The Panther]

In 1985-86 Wayne Gretzky won the scoring race by 74 ****ing points.
Nobody has ever been that dominant

Yes, someone has.

Wayne Gretzky in 1983-84 won the scoring race by 79 points... over his teammate (Coffey). This would have been around 94 points or so if he hasn't missed six games to injury.

And that season he actually won the scoring race on January 7th.

 

[blood gin]

No doubt Gretzky was getting a bit washed-up by 1998-99, his last season (although he still had 55 points in 54 games and was leading the Rangers handily).

But look what he did in the last 40 games of the previous season, from Jan. 3rd 1998 to April 18th 1998:
1. Jagr - 55 points
2. Gretzky - 54 points
3. Palffy - 50 points
4. Allison - 43 points
5. Turgeon - 43 points

Forsberg, btw, had only 40 points in this period, but in only 34 games. That's projects to 47 in 40, well behind Gretzky's pace. (Gretzky at this point is 37 years old, and on a .415 team with one of the worst offenses in the League.)


That's the thing with Wayne and Mario after they were 30 or 31. We can find stretches of 20 or maybe even 40 games where they got back to almost their prior prime form, but it was hard for them -- like any forward (except maybe Howe) -- to score as consistently as before that.

Gretzky was still lights-out in the 1993 playoffs, much of 1993-94 -- especially the first half of the season (he was on a 150-point pace at mid-season), the first 19 games of 1995-96, the first 36 games of 1996-97 (leading the League in scoring at late as Dec. 17th), the 1997 playoffs, and, considering his age, the back-half of 1997-98, although by then he couldn't score like of old.

Mario was unstoppable up to his 31st birthday (which was the start of the 1996-97 season). But he dropped about 40-50 points off his prior season's pace that year (partly due to the Pens scoring 35 fewer PP goals). Still, from Dec.17th to Jan.26th, he suddenly put up 42 points in 17 games. Three-and-a-half years later, when he came out of retirement, he famously scored 76 points in 43 games... but then already looked gassed in the playoffs. Similarly, two seasons later (2002-03), he put up 44 points in the first 21 games, but then really fell off towards the end (18 points in the final 23 games).

We should bear in mind, then, how incredible it has traditionally been for any high-scoring player to maintain his consistent, elite touch past age 30 or 31, when even the two most talented players ever couldn't really do so.

With Mario I wonder if his back just really gave out around 96-97 (that's right around when I remember hearing stories leaking out of of trainers and other players having to tie his skates for him) coupled with the fact that 96-97 was when we'd truly reached the dead puck point of no return. Mario's body was really being ground down in what the NHL was becoming and he couldn't physically take it anymore

I wish Wayne was healthy during the entire 92-93 season (the last true mega live puck year) to see what he could do. I'm certain if his back was in better condition he would've at least hit 170pts that season.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

That guys gets it.

You bumped a thread that hadn't been touched in nearly a full year, only to say "me too!"?

There's a f***ing like button. Use it.