Was bringing Minnesota and Columbus into the league a bad idea?

[PredsFan77*]

I still don't see why Nashville is bad for the NHL? We have good attendance, low payroll, very competitive, and made the playoffs last year. It's a shame the NHL is locked out because us Nashville fans don't have a chance to show how much we support the Preds.

Because you aren't a purebread blue collar town like Winnipeg. You rednecks have to steal our teams and then you don't even support them!

 

[Drury_Sakic]

Because you aren't a purebread blue collar town like Winnipeg. You rednecks have to steal our teams and then you don't even support them!

Would not the Yotes not be to blame for that, rather than the Preds?




And by that logic...

Would not the Great One be to blame...the success of LA... then the ownership/partnership with the Yotes?

Damn that Gretz... He is to blame for everything!

:lol

 

[Hawkalyzer]

Both were good moves. Atlanta, Carolina, and Florida probably weren't.

 

[dolfanar]

Minnesota is about as natural a hockey market as you'll find anywhere in the world, Canada included. I was personally ticked when the Stars moved.

Columbus, Atlanta and Nashville are still up in the air, imo. Way too early to tell. I'd hate for *another* team to fail in Atlanta though, so fingers are crossed.

Carolina is a team I have little patience for personally. They seem to have determined ownership, so power to them, but hockey in Carolina makes as much sense to me as beach volley ball in Greenland...

OTOH, and I've keep repeating this, 2 teams in Florida and 3 in California is downright foolish. There are as many teams in California as there are in Eastern Canada for crying out loud! Is it any wonder that one team or another is always on the edge of despair? And two teams in Florida? WTF? I think the NHL would be so much healthier if Tampa had the whole region to itself to try and own that market, and maybe in 10-15 years the Florida market, like California MIGHT be able to support a second team. California can probably support 2 teams, San Jose (Northern Cal) and LA (Southern Cal), but splitting that state amongst 3 teams is insane right now. Again, once San Jose in entrenched for another 10-15 years, maybe they can try another team, but right now it's too much. And the same thing would happen in Texas if Houston got a team, imo. It's too damn early. The NHL would be flooding the market too soon.

North West US is really the place to expand to. The league is under represented in a region that is natural for hockey. Another team in Canada couldn't hurt either. Winnipeg and Quebec are too recent to try again, but Hamilton is due for another shot at the NHL. Assuming they can learn from the mistakes the Senators made in their return, Hamilton could turn into a great NHL franchise.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Expansion in the long run will be good for the NHL, and yes, Minnesota and CBJ are great additions to the league.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

minnesota and columbus wasn't bad expansion. tampa bay, florida, san jose, atlanta, nashville was...not to mention moving a team to phoenix...thanks Gary

San Jose a mistake?
Take a look at their record and attendance records since their inaugural season. They've been one of the most successful expansion teams.

 

[Sixty Six]

San Jose a mistake?
Take a look at their record and attendance records since their inaugural season. They've been one of the most successful expansion teams.

it seems like alot of people are going by the weather when determining a strong market or a weak market. Let me clarify me wanting to move two warm weather teams, but it has nothing to do with climate, Carolina has very low attendance numbers, and to me Florida is a only strong enough hockey market to hold one team.

 

[Sixty Six]

After doing a little research and looking at attendance numbers, i am very dissapointed where my pens finished in attendance rankings, i know they struggled since 2001, but the kicker for me was even during that season they were only 16th, another thing that really suprised me was the attendance of the islanders, i never thought it was lacking THAT much. The one thing i was looking for was the rankings of tampa vs. florida, once in the past 4 years florida out drew tampa, and once they were only one spot from eachother. I still would rather see florida moved than tampa. I also have said Atlanta has room for growth and after looking at numbers i'll back down my argument a little bit, but i still think there is time for it to still be considered a success.

 

[signalIInoise]

The North Stars should never have been moved out of Minnesota in the first place, but I think they were a throw-in with the Herschel Walker trade.

 

[blamebettman*]

California was ready for another team in 1991, and San Jose was far enough from LA where it would work. But Anaheim in 1993 was a mistake. There was no demand for a 3rd hockey team there and they have yet to really establish any sort of fan base. Anaheim needs to be relocated, possibly to Quebec City.

Expanding to Tampa Bay in 1992 was fine, but once again they didn't wait and see if hockey interest could be a permanent thing in Florida. Right away they plopped down the Panthers in 1993-1994. It's pretty clear that area is only big enough for 1 team. Panthers have to go Seattle would be good place to put them. The Canucks are close but not too close(about 2 1/2 hours away). I think you'd find enough fans in the Washington/Oregon area to support a team. Either that or Winnipeg.

Nashville and Atlanta were jokes. Atlanta barely supports the Falcons and haven't sold out a Braves playoff game in decades. Both franchises should be folded.

 

[Injektilo]

Winnipeg does not want an NHL team back. They have their AHL team and Winnipeg has become the center of the AHL and they are happy, but most in Winnipeg want nothing to do with a NHL team.

what? they don't want a team? what are you basing that on? the centre of the AHL? I thought the Moose get like 3000 a game.....

From what I understand, Winnipeg would love to have an NHL city back under the right circumstances.

 

[arnie]

i really don't know what the hockey culture was like in Columbus before expansion, but it was really a no-brainer to get a team back in Minnesota

This is classic 20-20 hindsight given the miserable failure of the North Stars. I can remember all the "smart insiders" saying that all people in Minnesota people care about is high school hockey.

 

[Lorenzo1000]

what? they don't want a team? what are you basing that on? the centre of the AHL? I thought the Moose get like 3000 a game.....

From what I understand, Winnipeg would love to have an NHL city back under the right circumstances.

The Moose are hard to get tickets for right now. They only keep the lower deck open though, still 9000 per game is pretty good for the AHL....

 

[Icey]

what? they don't want a team? what are you basing that on? the centre of the AHL? I thought the Moose get like 3000 a game.....

From what I understand, Winnipeg would love to have an NHL city back under the right circumstances.

I base that on the fact that I am somehow related to half the city of Winnipeg (okay a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point) and them plus their friends, work aquaintances etc. all feel mostly the same. The NHL can just stay away.

There is a group of them that would like a team back, but mostly people just hope they will stay away and they can keep their new arena with their AHL team. Think about the fact that when they built that arena they didn't build it for a NHL team, they built it for the AHL. They would need a new arena and the folks there, just aren't willing to go there again.

I was living there when Gary Bettman ripped the team out of Winnipeg and imagining the very worst does not even to compare to a city losing a team that they loved. The citizens of Winnipeg have moved on. They cheer for the Coyotes and miss their Jets, but they don't want to go down that road again. They all love the Moose and the ticket prices that go along with it. Tickets are hard to come by. They sell out most nights. Winnipeg doesn't have the greatest economy and nothing would drain it more than the citizens having to pay for a new arena and foot the bill of yet another NHL team.

 

[Tawnos]

And two teams in Florida? WTF? I think the NHL would be so much healthier if Tampa had the whole region to itself to try and own that market, and maybe in 10-15 years the Florida market, like California MIGHT be able to support a second team.

Yes, let's move the team in the bigger market so the smaller market can try to own the state... yes, that makes perfect sense...

The only team that should definitely relocate is Carolina, because I just don't think there are enough people who are potential fans there. Nashville is a affluent area, and hockey can survive in an affluent area with a little less people in it. Anaheim I say maybe move them because I don't know if they can really compete with LA. The rest of the teams... moving them is ridiculous.

Seattle or Portland should get one and Winnepeg, KC and Houston (yes, I think a team can survive there because of the distance between there and Dallas) I think would be the next 3.

 

[Anthony*]

There are other teams that maybe were no good decisions like San Jose

minnesota and columbus wasn't bad expansion. san jose was

 

[kdb209]

minnesota and columbus wasn't bad expansion. tampa bay, florida, san jose, atlanta, nashville was...not to mention moving a team to phoenix...thanks Gary

By the way you do know that Gary Bettman had absolutely nothing to do with the expansion to San Jose, Ottawa, Tampa, Florida, and Anaheim - they happened before he was even commissioner. I'm surprised you left out Anaheim (or do you actually think that was a good expansion location).

But my main point (as I've posted here before):

Why doesn't San Jose get any respect???

It was the prime expansion locale for the first round of expansion. The league even jumped though hoops with the whole North Star's threaten to move to Oakland musical ownership fiasco to keep San Jose open for expansion.

You do realize that San Jose is the 10th largest city in the United States (It recently passed Detroit into the top 10). It passed San Francisco a decade ago.

San Jose is also probably the most affluent of all the NHL markets - there are a lot of people with a lot of disposible income. It supports a median house price of well over half-a-million dollars. It is not quite the dot com boom years, but there still is a lot of corporate support.

San Jose is also a market of migrants - there are a lot of people here from New York, Boston, Chicago, Canada, etc who came here for jobs. You can joke that no one here is really from here - but it's largely true.

I grew up an Islander Season Ticket holder before and during the glory years and I can appreciate another intangible that San Jose has as a market - the name. This is an area (like Long Island) that was always in the shadow of the bigger city next door. Being the first (and only) major league sports team in San Jose was a significant draw.

San Jose has not had problems with attendance. They even managed to sell out the Cow Palace (40 miles away and by far the worst dump in recent NHL history) for two of the worst teams in NHL history. They pretty much were a complete sellout for their first 3 years in San Jose (a 100+ sellout streak) and had over 14,000 Season Ticket Holders and a STH waiting list. Even in their down (non-playoff) years they kept very good attendence. They've had one real down year in the debacle in 2002-03, but that was still 85%+ capacity.

Youth hockey is growing incredibly in Norther California thanks to the Sharks. Logitech Ice (the Sharks practice and public ice facility) is the largest public ice facility west of the Mississippi.

San Jose, a bad expansion choice - NO.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

First, I'm not saying that there should or shouldn't be 2 teams in the state of Florida. But I see a few people making comments like "area is only big enough for 1 team" or "if Tampa had the whole region to itself", etc. The distance (243 miles) between Tampa and Sunrise is more than the distance between some teams that are not expansion teams (Chicago to Detroit is 237 miles, Toronto to Ottawa is 217 miles, Ottawa to Montreal is 102 miles). Using that as an excuse is just absolutely ridiculous and shows how little you understand things.

Even using attendance figures can be misleading about whether a team being in an area is a good or bad idea. Corporate dollars are waaaaaaaaaaaaay more important in the NHL's eyes than attendance. But if you don't have the corporate dollars like other markets, you need to have better attendance than other markets.

To answer the thread's question (though really does this one even need to be asked??), bringing Minnesota and Columbus into the league a bad idea....no. The 2 locations seem to have good support from the fan base, decent talent pool assembled and being properly run for the most part (drafting well, developing talent, moderate payrolls, etc). The other actual expansions...San Jose should be included with Minnesota & Columbus as good expansion, Ottawa & Tampa looks okay to me (Ottawa's financial woes seem resolved and TB winning the Cup is self-explanatory), Anaheim & Florida are struggling and could be relocated if necessary (with Anaheim now sold, possibly less likely), and Nashville & Atlanta looks pretty good for the future (Nashville making the playoffs last yr & Atlanta with 2 superstars already).

 

[Baron Von Shark]

As others have noted, SJ has been a posterboy for expansion into non-traditional markets. The only reason SJ has faced a recent decline in attendance (meaning the first time the org was not selling out every single home game) was because of the dot com slump. Silicon Valley and the Bay Area as a whole was hurt bad when the bubble was burst, and on top of that, was one of the worst victims of the post-9/11 recession.

 

[firstroundbust]

What a stupid topic.. The NHL without a team in Minnesota is stupid.

 

[leafaholix*]

Minny and CBus are good expansion teams.

Mistakes... see Nashville and Atlanta.

 

[Cropduster]

I am kinda late responding to this thread but of the last 4 expansion teams, these are the two best. Minnesota for obvious reasons and Ohio has an excellent grassroots program and the sport has taken off in Ohio, rinks sprouting everywhere. Both are/will be great cities for NHL hockey

 

[SedinFan*]

I don't tihnk it is fair to say all southern teams should be moved... the Stars have a great fan base, don't have financial troubles, and have done well in the league... Dallas may not be a hockey hotbed but there is alot of hockey here even tohugh it is in the south.. people say put a team in Portland, good idea.. BUT Portland has less Hockey players than Dallas, heck Oregon ahs less hockey players than Dallas.. So in my opinion Dallas is not a typical southern place and deserves a hockey team

I should have been clearer. I meant South East to be exact, and then include Anaheim. Didn't mean to include Dallas and or Phoenix in that group.

I do believe Phoenix is a promising market, and Dallas has been consistant ever since they've moved to Dallas.

 

[codswallop]

California was ready for another team in 1991, and San Jose was far enough from LA where it would work. But Anaheim in 1993 was a mistake. There was no demand for a 3rd hockey team there and they have yet to really establish any sort of fan base. Anaheim needs to be relocated, possibly to Quebec City.

Expanding to Tampa Bay in 1992 was fine, but once again they didn't wait and see if hockey interest could be a permanent thing in Florida. Right away they plopped down the Panthers in 1993-1994. It's pretty clear that area is only big enough for 1 team. Panthers have to go Seattle would be good place to put them. The Canucks are close but not too close(about 2 1/2 hours away). I think you'd find enough fans in the Washington/Oregon area to support a team. Either that or Winnipeg.

Nashville and Atlanta were jokes. Atlanta barely supports the Falcons and haven't sold out a Braves playoff game in decades. Both franchises should be folded.

I wonder if anyone calling for the heads of cities like Atlanta and Nashville have ever lived or spent any amount of time there, or know anything about those cities other than the fact they are in the southeastern US.

Probably not going out on a limb in saying the answer to that is no. Ignorance is, as always, bliss.

 

[guymez]

Bringing back a team in Minnesota was a no brainer, especially now that the arena isn't way out in Bloomington anymore.

what? they don't want a team? what are you basing that on? the centre of the AHL? I thought the Moose get like 3000 a game.....

From what I understand, Winnipeg would love to have an NHL city back under the right circumstances.

Having lived in Winnipeg in the early 90's I never understood why the
team wasn't better supported. They had a decent team (1991 and 1992) but never had an average regular season attendance of over 14,000. (1500 under capacity) This was back when the NHL was very affordable. Now they build a new arena which holds just over 15,000 and it is to small for NHL standards. Although, even if the arena was 17 or 18,000 I can't see Winnipeg paying todays ticket prices to support an NHL team.