Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

[phillipmike]

So the Cubs just had one of the most bonkers innings I've ever heard of. Losing 10-5 in the 8th, they score 9 runs on 3 hits. Every run was scored with 2 outs, and they didn't even hit any HRs! Look at this:

Hayward hit by pitch.
Schwarber struck out.
La Stella singled.
Navarro struck out.
Bryant hit by pitch.
Contreras infield single for 1 RBI.
Zobrist walked for 1 RBI.
Baez doubled for 3 RBI.
Russel intentionally walked.
Heyward walked.
Schwarber walked for 1 RBI.
La Stella walked for 1 RBI.
Heyward scores on a wild pitch. Schwarber scores on a throwing error by the catcher.
Navarro struck out.

And 1 guy is responsible for 2 of those 3 outs. Both strike outs.

Wow the Braves were up 10-2 in this game and lost 14-10. They were up 10-5 in the bottom of the 8th and the Cubs scored 9 runs then.

 

[selltrade]

I sure hope next time we have a shot at a championship we don't trade for prospects at the deadline.

Give it up you sound stupid. They got the best player in that trade, who helped them. You hate being wrong and you are

 

[canucksfan]

SRF is pitching today. 3 innings 3 SO and no base runners so far. Only 28 pitches. He had a very good first start as well.

 

[The Nemesis]

**** this team. They were practically invisible today. I knew all the good vibes to start the year couldn't last

 

[canucksfan]

SRF finished with 6.1 innings 5 hits 2 ER one walk and 3 SO.

 

[Eyedea]

Are Vlad and Bo’s bats already too advanced for the minors? The answer is yeah, definitely.

 

[supermann_98]

Are Vlad and Bo’s bats already too advanced for the minors? The answer is yeah, definitely.

Holy cow I haven’t been keeping a close eye on them. They are cleaning up!

Vladdy has 6 extra base hits and only 4 strikeouts in 40 ABs. His bat control and knowledge of the strike zone is just unreal for such a young kid, reminds me of Miguel Cabrera

 

[Rysto]

**** this team. They were practically invisible today. I knew all the good vibes to start the year couldn't last

Pathetic effort by the offence. Not a single hit. Did they even show up to the diamond this afternoon?

 

[canucksfan]

Are Vlad and Bo’s bats already too advanced for the minors? The answer is yeah, definitely.

I’m curious where they will be ranked on the mid season prospect lists.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I’m curious where they will be ranked on the mid season prospect lists.

Vlad will be #1. Bo will probably be anywhere from 5-10.

 

[Eyedea]

I’m curious where they will be ranked on the mid season prospect lists.

1 and 2, in my heart.

 

[Genghis Keon]

Give it up you sound stupid. They got the best player in that trade, who helped them. You hate being wrong and you are

Hutchison had x value.
Liriano had y value.
Ramirez and McGuire had z value.

In the trade, x equaled y + z.

z had 0 current impact (their value was all potential future impact).

In the trade, the Jays took potential future impact over potential current impact to balance the trade.

In a 30 team league, it's rare for a team to make it to the final 4, especially when said team plays in the AL East.

As an aging team, the Jays made the ALCS, but came up short.

It might be wrong, but I think zeke's whole point was that the Jays should have prioritized adding potential current impact in the trade because the whole point of sports is to win and flags fly forever. Instead, the Jays took potential future impact to balance the trade, and won a minor trade deadline deal. It's great to win deals, but they should have done everything to maximize potential current impact to maximize their chances of actually winning.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Eyedea]

Hutchison had minimal to no value, Pitt was looking to shed salary, the Jays required additional assets to take on the full contract.

Pretty simple, and the Jays capitalized on it further by flipping him the year after to a team that had a plethora of OFers. Liriano had more value coming to us, and less value leaving, but we managed to exceed it because of good management.

 

[Apotheosis]

Holy cow I haven’t been keeping a close eye on them. They are cleaning up!

Vladdy has 6 extra base hits and only 4 strikeouts in 40 ABs. His bat control and knowledge of the strike zone is just unreal for such a young kid, reminds me of Miguel Cabrera

As crazy as this sounds, at the same age, he has more power and he's better at that exact same age.

 

[Nineteen67]

I sure hope next time we have a shot at a championship we don't trade for prospects at the deadline.

TBH the last time the Jays had a legit chance at a championship they added Ricky Henderson at the deadline.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

TBH the last time the Jays had a legit chance at a championship they added Ricky Henderson at the deadline.

So the Jays didn't have a legit chance at a championship in 2015? That is interesting lol

 

[phillipmike]

Hutchison had x value.
Liriano had y value.
Ramirez and McGuire had z value.

In the trade, x equaled y + z.

z had 0 current impact (their value was all potential future impact).

In the trade, the Jays took potential future impact over potential current impact to balance the trade.

In a 30 team league, it's rare for a team to make it to the final 4, especially when said team plays in the AL East.

As an aging team, the Jays made the ALCS, but came up short.

It might be wrong, but I think zeke's whole point was that the Jays should have prioritized adding potential current impact in the trade because the whole point of sports is to win and flags fly forever. Instead, the Jays took potential future impact to balance the trade, and won a minor trade deadline deal. It's great to win deals, but they should have done everything to maximize potential current impact to maximize their chances of actually winning.

Read this post - they added 6 players in season to a team that had little to no significant holes.

Liriano, Navarro, Feldman, Grilli, Benoit and Upton are pretty old to be considered prospects.

I dont know what else the Jays could have done. Their needs were bullpen arms, catcher and a LF.

They had the best and the most healthiest rotation in the AL. The 2nd best team wRC+ of all AL playoff teams. Had strongholds at all positions in Martin, EE, Travis, Tulo, Donaldson, Bautista and Pillar. Their "weakest" spot was an all star in Saunders who they acquired a 1.5 WAR player in 374 PAs (20-20 player) to push Saunders to the DH role to get Smoak's bat out of the lineup.

So they got a LFer, a backup catcher and 4 pen arms in Liriano, Grilli, Feldman, and Benoit. Navarro was a 0.3 WAR upgrade on Thole. Liriano, Feldman, Grilli and Benoit put up a combined WAR of 1.7 in that pen. Only Upton was a disappointment who was surprisingly the best player they traded for but gave them the worst production but no real loss, he cost you 6M in money over 2 years and a depth prospect.

So they traded for Liriano, Feldman, Grilli, Upton, Benoit and Navarro but lets focus on Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire.

BUT yeah we traded JUST for prospects

Tell me of who was available or traded who should the Jays should have gone after? And after that who should they have traded for those guys? Our best prospects at the time were Vladdy and Alford... did you want to see them traded?

Rotation was set. After the Upton deal the lineup was set. Bullpen need work and they added some very effective pieces to Osuna, Biagini and Cecil. Add in the fact that the Jays bullpen was near perfect in the playoffs minus a fluke bad inning in a game they won.

There right there is evidence that the Jays: 1. Didn't have a need for a significant addition at the time of the deadline and 2. Didn't have the prospects to make a significant addition.

In all likelihood Shapiro looked for additions but the price didn't make sense or their wasn't a deal to be made. You dont make a trade because you want - the other team has to want to deal with you and you have to have players they want.

 

[BuppY]

Who is this guy. Never heard of him before. Could someone please provide the relevancy of this.

 

[nilan30]

Game postponed again today. Bummer. Pretty fun reading the thread on the Jays Facebook page with people saying every park should have a roof and others saying the season should start in June.

With the two postponement, do they go with Happ on Monday or stick with Garcia? He's pitched well enough that I think you let him make his start. Maybe diffrent if it's late summer in a tight race

 

[canucksfan]

Who is this guy. Never heard of him before. Could someone please provide the relevancy of this.

He was signed last year as an IFA. SS that has a fairly good bat from what I have read

 

[Genghis Keon]

Read this post - they added 6 players in season to a team that had little to no significant holes.



Tell me of who was available or traded who should the Jays should have gone after? And after that who should they have traded for those guys? Our best prospects at the time were Vladdy and Alford... did you want to see them traded?

Rotation was set. After the Upton deal the lineup was set. Bullpen need work and they added some very effective pieces to Osuna, Biagini and Cecil. Add in the fact that the Jays bullpen was near perfect in the playoffs minus a fluke bad inning in a game they won.

There right there is evidence that the Jays: 1. Didn't have a need for a significant addition at the time of the deadline and 2. Didn't have the prospects to make a significant addition.

In all likelihood Shapiro looked for additions but the price didn't make sense or their wasn't a deal to be made. You dont make a trade because you want - the other team has to want to deal with you and you have to have players they want.

You obviously make good points, but I have two comments:

1. It's a fool's errand to ask who was available that the Jays should have gone after because we don't know who they went after (or how hard they went after them), who was available, and who could have been available (i.e. who wasn't really available, but could have turned out to be available for the right price).

2. The Jays still took prospect capital (with no potential for current impact) in a trade deadline deal. It was a great deal value-wise and you can justify it however you want, but they took potential future impact over potential current impact. It's inarguable because that's what they did. Zeke obviously thinks their focus should have been entirely on potentially improving that year's team. You think it's a minor point for a team that was strong and set and had made trades for the present, while I think for zeke it's a mindset thing. They were hedging (even if it was just hedging in a minor deal) when they theoretically could have maximized what they could get to potentially help that year's team.

 

[zeke]

Give it up you sound stupid. They got the best player in that trade, who helped them. You hate being wrong and you are

They choked. They know it, we know it.

 

[phillipmike]

while I think for zeke it's a mindset thing. They were hedging (even if it was just hedging in a minor deal) when they theoretically could have maximized what they could get to potentially help that year's team.

Which is incredibly stupid because mindset doesn't win championships. Look at the 2015 team... they got as far as the 2016 team with what you deem opposite "mindsets." Heck the Indians had the mindset to go all in and they lost too.

The Jays were in a great position during the 2016 deadline. Healthy and the beat rotation in the AL. The 2nd best lineup in the AL. The pen needed help and they got the pen help.

Theory is a stupid thing to hold onto at this point. The focus is on the secondary aspects of a deal. The Jays acquired 6 players to their 2016 team to improve the roster (some improved the team and some didn't) but here we are discussing the 2 prospects over the 6 players.

The discussion makes no sense as your points suggest that teams were offering the Jays ways to improve their contending team for 2016 but Shapiro and Atkins said "no no, we prefer the mid level prospects." No one can bethat dense - well i knowone person.

This discussion is as idiotic as it gets because anyone in agreement with Zeke's standpoint would "theoretically" agree that had the prospects not been involved in the deal and it was just Liriano for Hutch then "mindset"-wise it looks better because it was a AAA pitcher for a major league pitcher.

Hutch for Liriano, Ramirez and McGuire looks bad because by some illogical theoretical POV it looks like you are trading for prospects.

So by that logic it would have been better of the Jays just traded Hutch for Liriano? Because that is what Zeke is saying. He is saying that the Jays look bad because they traded for prospects well if the prospects weren't included then the Jays look better. Which isnt the case its hia illogical hate for Shapiro/Atkins and his undying love for the previous regime.

 

[zeke]

The team that gave up Clint Frazier (15th MLB.com, 21st BA) and Justus Sheffield (78th MLB.com, 68th BA) to get a reliever.

You think that we feasibly beat that package after Boy Wonder gutted the entire top end of our system to get superstars like Troy Tulowitzki the year before? Who do you trade for Andrew Miller?

Agreed it was a great trade by the Indians to move 2 overrated prospects for an elite MLBer. A move that serious teams make.

End of 2016 rankings;

Vladdy #20ba, #34mlb
Frazier #39ba, #16ba, #24mlb
Alford #59ba, #93bp, #70mlb
SRF #75ba, #85bp, #64mlb
Sheffield #91ba, #52bp, #79mlb
Urena #94mlb
Tellez #95ba
Greene #100bp

And we had 23yr old Pompey who had been top 50 on all 3 lists the year before that deadline before losing prospect eligibility.

You are beyond obtuse. How salty are you BTW that Aledmys Diaz (playing for pennies on the dollar) is here saving the team because Captain Foresight's billion dollar Glass Man is as useless as everyone expected him to be LOL.

I loved the Diaz pick up from day one. Look it up.

And how salty are you that AA built a back to back ALCS team, all your beloved prospects he traded stink, and the "gutted" system is elite again just a couple years later? So. Much. Salt.