Very great editorial today in La Presse

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by Russian Fan, Sep 11, 2004.

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  1. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Réjean Tremblay is a french editorialist. He's not the great hockey analyst when it's about the game but he's still one of the most respectful journalist when it comes to get to the source.

    maybe it will put some light into the ignorance of the pro-owners or the pro-lockout of this world.

    (THIS IS A FRENCH TRANSLATION)

    It's like if we where on the conference table where some NHL Owners & a dozen of players & NHLPA speakers.

    When we listen to the tape, we have the feeling that Bob Goodenow is trying to convince Gary Bettman & Bettman to told him that they are not on the same page.

    It's fascinating. You want to know how much the owners want to cut players budget per year ? MORE THAN 450,000,000$. An average of 15,000,000$ per team. That's what Gary Bettman told to the NHLPA in the last meeting.

    But we learn more about it. Bob Goodenow told the players & their agents that the supposed loss of the NHL teams were about 224M$ last year.

    Six teams loss 169M$ of that 224M$ . Three of those six had 65,8M$ claim losses.

    But this is not to shake Bob Goodenow. One the meeting tape he says
    That team is the NYRangers.

    Goodenow continue without saying who is the next team he's talking about
    .

    You will recognize that it was the St-Louis Blues property of one the girls of the Walton family. The Walton family is directly related to Wal Mart & that are multi-billionnaires.

    Goodenow also explain that many teams are in an extreme difficult market. He specifically name the Carolina Hurricanes & the Anaheim Ducks. Goodenow said
    The FANS are very critical over the PLAYERS. But it's the NHLPA that are making all the effort to negotiate so far. On that tape of the meeting, Goodenow remind everyone that the players put an offer last thursday.
    It's fascinating to listen to Goodenow. It's more fascinating to think that every players & their agents are listening also. All they have to do is to call a number or go to a website with a password & they have an update of everything that's going on with the negotiations.

    It's obvious that the players are winning the war of communication. Trevor Linden & Vinny Damphousse are very articulate & convinced. They answers their emails 18 hours a day.

    The players are prepared for a lockout. Some like Joel Bouchard try to organize to create a temporary league that the players would play in some Quebec cities. José Théodore talked about what will happen if there's a lockout. His potential losses is about 8M$ CDN but he doesn't lose his smile. He's convince like his other teammates that there's a war to battle & that we have to do it for everyone that will play in the NHL today or someday.

    The owners neglect one important aspect in that conflict. The players are educated & used to respect their leader & to sacrify themselves.

    It starts at 12 years old & they obey to the coach & follow their captain. Older, their are experienced & physical, the fight for their smaller teammated, they go in the corners to pass the puck to the talented players.

    So if their coach is Goodenow & their captains are Linden & Damphousse told them to fight, they will fight. That's how they made of.

    REJEAN TREMBLAY

    ''Just a side note that almost 90% of the editorials that Tremblay have made about today's era of players , he was always very critical about them so to him to talk about that , that way, says a lot ''
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2004
  2. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    Like I said in another thread, this would be the Rangers. It could be the Bruins, but they made the playoffs and NESN is not their own network, while MSG is a network almost exclusively for the Rangers and Knicks, who split an arena. The Blackhawks don't have a TV deal, Montreal and Detroit don't split their arenas, the Leafs don't have their own network.


    So everyone who said the Rangers are ruining hockey for the past 7 years are right in more ways than one.
     
  3. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    I think Leafs TV is property of the Leafs.
     
  4. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    I'm not educated on Leafs TV, but the Leafs were a team that went 2 rounds into the playoffs, so I highly doubt they lost that much money. Their ownership is a relatively resourceful group, and I heard somewhere (don't know if this is still the case) that they get money from the Raptors for using the arena.
     
  5. cws

    cws ...in the drink

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    Looks like one of those articles that pop up every now and then in the Swedish papers.

    I'd explain more but now it's time for about 10 hours of college football. I'll let you wrestle with the implications of that Swedish reference.
     
  6. MS

    MS Registered User

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    This is exactly it. 6 teams are the problem. 24 teams are either profitable or within shouting distance of a profit ... if the new CBA cut the average salary by about 10% (as opposed to the 40% the league is proposing) to around $1.6-1.7 million, pretty much all of these teams would be financially viable.

    The problem is 6 teams, and two of those (NYR and St. Louis) are owned by enormously wealthy interests that aren't affected significantly by losses.

    So that gets us down to 4 or 5 problem franchises - some of which are in horrible hockey markets (Anaheim, Carolina, Florida), and some of which have been horribly mis-managed over the last decade (NYI, Pittsburgh). The problems in none of these cities have anything to do with the CBA ... the biggest problem the league has is putting franchises in non-viable hockey markets, and then expecting to tailor a CBA to make these franchises work. Like any bad business venture in any area, these organizations deserve to lose money and it shouldn't be on the backs of the players, most of which are suiting up for financially viable organizations under the current system, to compensate for the poor decision-making of the NHL and its owners.

    There does need to be a market correction here, but the extent of the correction the owners are demanding is absolutely ridiculous.
     
  7. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Well Réjean Tremblay is not a Tabloid editorialist by the way. I don't know if your reference to swedish papers is about making rumours out of a miscontext sentence but that's not the case here.
     
  8. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Uh... it's a negociation.

    Obviously, the 40% figure goal is bunk.

    Is there anyone out there who really believes that?

    There is something you forget, though. You're saying a small correction might make all teams viable but it will probably not allow them all the means to be competitive. This is what the owners are attempting here. The plan being that if they fail, they should at least get viability.

    Personally, I'm much more concerned about an equal playing field so I support the owners pushing for more.
     
  9. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Vlad you forget 1 thing & that's the most important. You can get a salary cap of 31M$ & still not be competitve if you're not hiring the RIGHT PEOPLE for the RIGHT JOB !!!

    Equal playing field , what an illusion. Equal playing would mean equal GM's competency, equal Owner competency, equal staff competency.

    Equal playing field in terms of a cap will only reward mediocrity like the NFL. I would expand on that but I'm a bit tired writing 2000 words & getting 7 words in return.
     
  10. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    An equal playing field isnt fair, or fun as football fans are now saying in ever increasing numbers. You need a system that allows great teams and rebuilding teams to co-exist. And cycle through their stages as their team grows, peaks, ages and rebuilds. The natural fair cycle of life.

    You cant buy a winner, you must grow one.

    30 equal teams isnt Utopia, its Hell.
     
  11. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    Bingo. :thumbu:
     
  12. hockeytown9321

    hockeytown9321 Registered User

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    and impossible. ask Karl Marx.
     
  13. DownFromNJ

    DownFromNJ Registered User

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    Sounds like a really, really weak luxery tax.
     
  14. x-bob

    x-bob Registered User

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    Great article!!!!!! :handclap:

    That deal from the NHLPA doesn't sound that bad. :dunno:
     
  15. x-bob

    x-bob Registered User

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    I heard that the Panthers are one of those teams losing alot of money
     
  16. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    I'm not a Tremblay fan but this is one of his better articles, especially coming from him. It makes me sick to think there won't be a season, but it seems hopeless that there will be any NHL season. :mad:
     
  17. X0ssbar

    X0ssbar Guest

    Wow - so the players are using the internet now, even password protected pages..get out.. :shakehead

    So this article is bascially saying that even though the league lost 220+ mil its okay b/c its just 6 franchises - rediculous argument. The NHL still lost 220 MILLION DOLLARS!!

    Let me ask you this - why do the other 3 major sports either have a salary cap or luxury tax? Their leagues aren't losing money (regardless of what multi-billionaire owns them) and they are far more successfull and generating far more revenue than the NHL. Yet even though the NHL brings in significantly less revenue than the big 3 and the players make the same salaries (even more than NFL players) the player's feel the NHL doesn't deserve to have any cost certainty?? Honestly, if you were an owner looking at the other sports, I think its pretty obvious which direction you would want to head.

    Here is some breaking news for you - the salary cap is as much about controlling the owners as it is player's salaries. You don't think certain NFL owners would spend more if they could? The players will still be fairly compensated and the deserving star players will still make a signficant amount.

    I want hockey as much as the next guy, but I can't blame the owners for recognizing the game needs some serious changes and looking at the other, more successfull leagues for a business model.
     
  18. L4br3cqu3

    L4br3cqu3 U mad ?

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    Players want to keep their salaries... who could blame them ?

    Owners want to make more cash for themselves... see above.

    Something is not right in the marvelous world of hockey, and that's money. Now of course we can't change money, players and owners neither. Something is sure though, and it's that it's the fans that are suffering from this crap.

    Greed greed GREED !

    So tired of their childish demeanor... is it normal that somebody, anybody if anyone care, makes MILLIONS $ for PLAYING in a sport ? Ok, right, it's pro sport, they spent their youth PLAYING and 'developping' in junior hockey... they could have done something better, more intelligent, who knows... but they became pro hockey players.

    Now it's not bad, wanting to be popular, some kind of icon for the common people while practicing a sport. Especially if these players are the best.

    And the owners in all of that ? Of course, they 'own' their respective teams, and like anybody owning a 'company', they want it to flourish. Otherwise, what would be the goal ? Something is sure, though, it's that they became greedy. Too much greedy. They paid their players with big money, hoping to gather the best team. Not a bad idea, but it back-fired. Fortunately.

    Fortunately ? Is that guy dumb ? Lol, perhaps ! :amazed:

    This conflict isn't there for nothing... this league is in the wrong way, big time ! And I hope the players AND the owners will learn something out of this... sorrily, I don't think it will happen. But again, who knows ? :dunno:
     
  19. Tom_Benjamin

    Tom_Benjamin Registered User

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    A luxury tax is entirely different than a salary cap. Hockey players - and baseball players - are willing to take a luxury tax. A luxury tax does not define a specific player share of revenue. That is the key issue in this dispute.

    Football has a terrible CBA for the players because they are easily replaced. Basketball players also have a poor agreement for them because except for a handful of superstars they are all easily replaced.

    Baseball and players get a better deal because they can't be replaced.

    Why did you think there was a difference? Obviously baseball and hockey players have more leverage. They are worth more.

    Tom
     
  20. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    No one question the FACT that NHL TEAMS lost money.

    The question that YOU & so many in dire need to answer me & others that forget to answered themselves is :

    DO YOU RELATE THE LOSSES DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF THE CBA ?

    The answer if you ask me is NO ! NHL teams lose money because the people the owners hired like the GM's & the accountants are MAKING BAD DECISIONS.

    If the OWNERS, OH BY THE WAY ARE SO SUCCESFULL IN THEIR REAL BUSINESS managed their franchise like they manage their companies, WE wouldn't be here talking about the CBA or $$$$, we would be talking about training CAMPS !!



    Well there's some MLB teams that are losing money due to bad decisions & some players are making 13-14-15M$ per season. Some teams can't afford a player & they rebuild, they try to make decisions that would help their teams.

    I just don't know why you are pointing me about luxury tax when NHLPA offers that to the owners.


    Seriously, you want the players to say yes to a cap because OWNERS/GM can't control themselves. If your boss is telling you to do more work because he can't control himself to go playing tennis in the afternoon, would you say YES NO PROBLEM ?

    I'm very ironic of course but that's what you just said.

    Seriously are you that NAIVE to think the OWNERS want a CAP for the love of the GAME ?
     
  21. X0ssbar

    X0ssbar Guest

    I agree with you that the luxury tax system does not define a specific player's share of revenue - but is does restric it.

    My point being is that out of the 4 major's, the NHL is the least successfull yet has the least restrictive CBA. I clearly see a problem with this. If anything the NHL should have the tightest CBA because they ARE less successfull.

    I personally don't feel that any athlete at the professional level is easily replaced.
     
  22. hockeytown9321

    hockeytown9321 Registered User

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    Those other 3 sports also have much larger TV national TV contracts. That might have something to do with the profitability, even though I disagree about most of them being profitable in the first place-especially baseball.
     
  23. Motown Beatdown

    Motown Beatdown Need a slump buster

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    You think so? Add the numbers. Half the teams, 15 of them had payrolls over 40 million last year. Total over that 40 million was roughly 240 million dollars. If you get a dollar to dollar match over the luxury tax thats 240 million dollars generated. And if you only give tax revenue to teams under the luxury tax each of the 15 teams under 40 million would get roughly 16 million dollars.

    Now my point is owners are not gonna want to pay a huge tax penalty. These owners are gonna instruct their GM's to keep their payrolls down near that number. There's a reason why some MLB teams flirt with that salary tax numbers and only two go over it. Because owners do not want to pay a penalty at the end of the year. And thats with a weak tax system MLB uses.



    ps, here's the site i got the salaries from.

    http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm
     
  24. djhn579

    djhn579 Registered User

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    YES. You provided the answer to that in your first post. A few owners are responsible for much of the losses. Those few owners have some of the highest salaries in the league and don't mind losing that money. The rest of the owners have to pay the going rate for players, and the going rate is set by people that don't mind losing money.

    The CBA does not provide for any restriction on how much teams raise their salaries, and that obviously has an affect on all the other teams. So, like it or not, the CBA is at fault.

    That being said, there are many ways a hard cap can be negotiated to take into consideration all the complaints that the greedy player supporters have voiced.

    You want teams to be able to keep the players they drafted? Fine, allow for each team to have a $2M per year exception per player that can be used on up to 3 players that the team drafted. That should give them an edge in keeping their players, but the exception can't be used for another player until the contract expires. (if you use the $2M on a 3 year contract for player A, you can use the remaining 2 exceptions on other players, you don't get the 1st exception back until the contract for player A expires).

    You want to make sure the owners don't get too much profit at the expense of the players? Just negotiate what are considered revenue streams, then set the players take to a percentage of those revenue streams. Then set limits on the owners profits: If the owners make over $400M combined, the players take increases 5%. If the owners profits drop under $100M, the players take decreases by 5%.


    The only thing preventing a deal getting done is the players greed.
     
  25. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    Where in my 1st post ? It's all about BAD MANAGEMENT, BAD ACCOUNTABILITY !!

    So the problem is all about the OWNERS, again stop dreaming about it's the players fault. You want something that would control the owners but it's not the players fault.

    Do you realize that you just called players greedy ? What it an OWNER to you ? Someone who is very poor & doesn't make any money from their other companies ?
    The owners are so good to the people that they never fired a lot of people in the other companies in order to make more profits. They do this FOR THE PURE & HOLY LOVE OF THE GAME.

    End of sarcasm.

    Some players are indeed greedy but is it 100% ? I don't think so. Please don't do like Vlad to cite me a Bryan McCabe sentence it does not represent the whole entity of the NHLPA members.


    Again keeping the players you draft, you can until they are 31 years. If you can't because he does not fit your budget maybe that's because they hired another players that is fitting in it or maybe they a player they paid too much & they can't paid the other guy for the GM's mistake for that contract.

    Again , all you do is telling how you want to be a perfect world where every player does not want to be paid , gas if FREE when you buy a car, tickets will be free if you prove that you're a real hockey fan.

    Demented Reality showed a lots of time that a cap would be worse for the SENS that is having a SOLID CORE of talented players.

    Again do you realize that you ask to the players to police the OWNERS for doing well ?

    It's already like this by the way. Players salaries increase in the last 10 years because the revenues of the NHL increase. They didn't do this ALONE !!

    Also, no one here prove me why YOUR SABRES are a victim of the CBA ? a victim of the players fault ?

    WRONG ! The only thing preventing a deal getting done is to the owner realizing that it's not a dictatorship era & that you have 2 sides to make a deal.
     
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